Seminarians at Sundance

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander and I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I'm Darrell Bock, executive director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center, as well as Senior Research professor of New Testament at the Seminary. 

Kasey Olander: 

I have to ask him to give his own titles. I don't know if I have that much energy to get through all those words. 

Darrell Bock: 

Takes a deep breath to get there. Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So we're grateful that you've joined us today on The Table podcast. Our topic for today is films from Sundance 2025. So we'll take a dive into those and we'll explore some of the different themes that have resonated, and how we as Christians can engage with those films in particular, but then also the greater ideas that those films represent about how we can engage with art and media as believers in Christ. So our guest today is Ryann Heim. She's the director of programming for the Windrider Institute. Ryann, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Ryann Heim: 

Thank you for having me. We're always big fans of Dallas Theological Seminary and your students joining us for the Windrider Summit, and using our films in your context, so I'm so happy to be here. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, yeah. We are really grateful to be connected with you guys. It's been a really significant experience. As the last several years, professors from DTS have taken groups of students to the Sundance Film Festival and Windrider plays a key part in that. So Ryann, to start us off, could you just explain briefly what Windrider is and your role in it? 

Ryann Heim: 

Sure. So the Windrider Institute seeks to create, curate and respond to film and visual media, sparking thoughtful conversations around important topics in our culture. So we do that kind of in three ways. We have a productions team that does a lot of impact storytelling, so short documentary, episodic doc work, and really just creates award-winning beautiful content. But then we also have the Windrider Summit at the Sundance Film Festival, where we are an official partner of the Sundance Institute and we bring an audience of nearly 500 students, seminarians, ministry leaders, filmmakers, all to go and enjoy Sundance, watch Sundance films, but come back into our space to give a framework of how to be in culture as a Christian and how to have conversation around these really heavy topics sometimes, but things that we all wrestle with. And then as an outpouring of the Windrider Summit and productions, we have Windrider Studios, which is a library of hundreds of short films, some features with the W, which is a Q&A with our filmmakers, or an exploration guide, which is just a discussion guide to go through a film and even theological reflections. 

So we really hope to provide film content and resources to spark conversation in whichever context, whether that's a Bible study or chapel, things like that. As a member of the Windrider team, I am the director of programming, so I get to watch a lot of movies for a living to be honest of the job, and I curate those films for the summit that we watch alongside Sundance films. I kind of help decide what films we all go see at Sundance, and then I license films year-round for Windrider Studios, so that you can use them in your own context to continue the conversation past just the Sundance Film Festival event. 

Darrell Bock: 

So a couple of quick questions. First and just an observation, we actually have a Windrider page. 

Kasey Olander: 

Carousel. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, Carousel. I know it's proper term. 

Kasey Olander: 

Technical terms. 

Darrell Bock: 

Carousel on our webpage, where people who come to our website can view some of the stuff that you all have curated, which we very much appreciate that relationship. And I'm just curious, you said there are 500, around 500 who come to the Windrider thing. We pack a room, I know that. How big is the Sundance Film Festival itself? And for those who don't know what the Sundance Film Festival itself is, maybe tell us a little bit about that. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, so Sundance is essentially the premier festival worldwide for independent storytelling. They have thousands and thousands. Honestly, Craig Detweiler is the expert in this, not me— 

Kasey Olander: 

We have had him on the show. So thanks for plugging our episodes. 

Ryann Heim: 

Good. Yes, go watch that. So Sundance is very large. Every young filmmaker's dream is to have their film chosen for the Sundance Film Festival. And so, they host probably, I don't even know, maybe 20,000 people in Park City and Salt Lake City, Utah to screen films, filmmakers come, lots of press, and then even actors and— 

Darrell Bock: 

And make deals, right? 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, go and distribute. And so, a lot of young filmmakers are looking to get discovered, looking to have their films bought, and Sundance is a great marketplace for that. So lots of distributors attend and see premieres of films, and hopefully cut a check for the sake. And then Windrider gets to benefit from that, because we have these young creatives who are telling stories that are really resonant, even if they're not coming from a faith perspective. They usually communicate the things we all deal with as humans. And so, we bring those Sundance filmmakers back to our space and have deeper conversations with them. 

Kasey Olander: 

And that is such a significant dynamic of the Windrider and Sundance experience is getting to hear from the filmmakers themselves. And I think there's a spiritual analogy in there about creation pointing to its creator and making that interaction with the creation that much more meaningful. But that is, so I think you said that really well, that independent films a lot of times have these deeper topics and sometimes some heaviness, but they're communicating things that we all experience as humans. And so, I mean, so many different things that they don't shy away from. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then we take students in order to, well, we tell our students when we go to Sundance, because some of them are in our arts and media department, and they're learning how to tell storytelling, but the students who aren't, we tell, "Go and just be a listener. Listen to what people are wrestling with, listen to see how they are trying to put life together, listen to see what the world is grappling with and get a perspective that might not be your perspective, but that might open up possibilities for conversation, particularly with people who may or may not have an inclination to be inclined towards the church." 

Kasey Olander: 

And then let me ask this. My undergrad degree is in arts and technology, and I'm kind of interested in video production a little bit, and I've usually, I mean, I've had an artsy kind of background, and so I have a propensity to appreciate this kind of thing. But Darrell, what is it like for you as potential? I mean, you can tell me if you actually do identify as a secret artist, but what is it like for you to enter into that space from maybe not as much the artistic perspective? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, the main thing is that, like I say, I go really just to listen and to watch what people are wrestling with. And what we find from year to year, although I don't know if this year I could say there was a theme that kind of jumped out and grabbed me, whereas in previous years, it's been discussions on race or maybe the focus on the family. There have been different themes. I think two years ago, the family was coming across as a significant topic on numerous things that were selected. I didn't feel that unity this time around, but I'm basically going to see what people are wrestling with, what they're grappling with, how they try and make sense out of what's going on around them, etc. 

And I use it as an opportunity to get a glimpse of how people are seeing the world. And I find it valuable for me as someone who thinks to engage with someone who isn't thinking theologically and just see how they attempt to put things together in that regard. So there's a listening that goes on that is less concerned about thinking about who's thinking rightly or wrongly, although there's sometimes that element depending on what's being presented, but more how are they putting this together? What are they seeing? And of course, an artist is so good at helping you see things you might not otherwise see that. What are they catching onto that I might otherwise have missed? 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, yeah. So we've done, if you've been a long-time listener, then you may have noticed a pattern. It's not that we released them like clockwork, because Darrell would never want us to get too predictable, but for each of the last several years, we have released an episode for 2024. It was engaging culture through film, and it was debriefing the experience at the Sundance Film Festival in 2024. Film and life's issues was 2023. And then, when film reflects culture was in 2022. And I think in each of those episodes, it keeps coming up, the things that you're talking about, Darrell, about listening and seeing how people are making sense of the world. 

And I feel like we always come back to talking about compassion and seeing that even when we don't show up as filmmakers or we see a film that we're like, "I don't know that I loved it," but it still helps us to exercise our compassion muscles, if I can use that as an analogy to see what people are wrestling with, but then also how they're trying to find their place in it and find a way to express something that, like Ryann talked about, that a lot of us have experienced just by virtue of being human. So I want to shift to asking you guys about your experience specifically this year. So Ryann, we'll start with you, but what was one of the films that really stood out, resonated with you, or just that you found captivating for another reason? 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, that's a good question. So usually I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off at the summit, so I don't have a ton of time to actually watch the Sundance movies. But this year I did with the onset of online screenings I actually have gotten to in the last couple of years. So I saw Sunfish and other stories on Green Lake virtually, and that film just broke me open for no good... I mean, for good reasons, but it's not a specifically emotionally heavy film. It's essentially an, what do they call it? Anthology, an anthology film. It's feature narrative, about four stories all centered on Green Lake. I think it's a lake in Wisconsin. 

Darrell Bock: 

It is a lake in Wisconsin. And this was a UCLA thesis film, which is interesting, a college film. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, that was very interesting. But that film really resonated with me only really because of that first anthology about a young girl learning how to sail. I felt like I was watching myself 15 years ago. I learned how to sail at camp growing up, at a summer camp in Texas, and it was super pivotal for me in just feeling independent, learning how to get my hands dirty, and the fact that I could operate a little Sunfish, which was the title of the film, so I knew I'd be drawn to it immediately, gave me just a lot of confidence as a young girl. And so, seeing that portrayed in the first 20 minutes of the film Sunfish, it kind of opened up floodgates for me that, and emotions for me that I hadn't really experienced or drawn back on in a while. So feelings of nostalgia, some regret, feeling kind of like a fraud, because I haven't sailed in years and years, but I still say I love to sail. 

And so, seeing myself, it felt like seeing myself on screen and it unlocked something in me that I still haven't stopped thinking about. I'm thinking about going sailing this summer just to scratch that itch, because I was able to see and point to my friends and say, "Look, that's what I got to experience growing up and I want to do that again." 

And sailing for me too is a very theological experience. I've always loved the quote, "The winds of God are always blowing. You just have to set the sails." I loved that growing up, because I knew how to sail and I understood that mentality. And so, to get to see that on screen at Sundance was kind of crazy. Definitely, I used a lot of tissues that night. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's a good way to put it. I love the language that you used of seeing myself. One, I mean, I'm sure it to be such a literal depiction of an activity you actually did as a child is one thing, but so many of the terms that you just used resonate with so many of us, the experiences that we had in childhood and how much that shaped us, and even experiencing nostalgia and regret, and can I really say that that's who I am if I haven't still done it? Is that part of me in there? I think that all of those are pretty common themes for us, and all of us have gone from childhood to adulthood unless you're a child listening to this, in which case I'm proud of you. So that's an excellent example, Ryann. 

Darrell Bock: 

I've got a different one, and I don't remember whether this is a Windrider film or not, but it's In The Paint. In The Paint. Is this something that Windrider helped produce? Am I right about that? 

Ryann Heim: 

Yep. 

Darrell Bock: 

In fact, we were so impacted by this film as a group that we've got the star of this film coming to Dallas, and we're going to do a showing here. 

Kasey Olander: 

By the time this releases, it will have already happened. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, how can I say this? We can't take our 2,700 students to Sundance. It's just not possible. So what we try and do is bring some of Sundance to the campus, and we'll do films and we'll have conversations around them, and we're going to do that with this film. This is an AAU coach who was coaching a basketball team in one of the poorer parts of Syracuse with a lot of players who don't have dads, and it's about the way he mentors these kids and encourages them, and gets them to see themselves as worthwhile and valuable, while teaching the skills of teamwork in playing basketball. And just one, it was extremely well done in terms of bringing that element out. And then you've got an unusual personality in the coach, who's just full of energy and commitment to what he's doing. And so, it was just a beautiful film. And speaking about, thinking about when you were in your childhood, I played basketball in high school, so I definitely was not a center. 

And so, I remember the discipline of going to practice day after day after day, working towards a goal and doing it in a context of teamwork. So just a very powerful film. The films that Sundance tends to show are those that usually focus on some aspect of a challenge of being a human being in the midst of a challenge. And this one certainly had that element to it. And because there were so many different relationships that were at work between the players, and between the coach and the players, it was just a very powerfully well done film. And a classic example of the kind of thing that Sundance does, that's not the normal type of thing you would necessarily see if you went to a movie theater. 

Ryann Heim: 

Right. Well, and the Windrider Summit creates such a unique environment of all these people coming to a festival to experience culture, but then in our own venue, we have this opportunity to share content and impactful storytelling, and show the power of story and action. And so, In The Paint, I was really excited to show, I told my boss I wanted to show Windrider content at Windrider, and he was like, "Should we? I don't know." And it got a standing ovation, In The Paint. A docu-series that will be released throughout this year, I believe, into next year, is it really resonated with people from all walks of life. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, it was a slam dunk. It was In The Paint and it was slam dunk. 

Kasey Olander: 

If we had sound effects, we would do it. 

Darrell Bock: 

I know. I know. You did the best you could, right? 

Kasey Olander: 

I tried. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

What is it that, so I haven't seen this film yet, how would you say that somebody who is not a sports person like me, but if you're listening and you're not a sports person, what should our listener expect as they watch this film? 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, well, that one's easy, because the life story of the people who are playing on the teams, you get a little bit of a glimpse and you get little mini bios, if I can say it about some of the players and what their life situation is, et cetera. And so, you understand that basketball is really a backdrop for the human story that's taking place between the coach, who in many cases is becoming, how can I say this? An alternate father or a father figure to kids who haven't had a good male father model. And so, it's the human side of the story that draws you in, and the basketball just becomes the context in which it's functioning, because that's obviously what they're working together to try and do is to build a good team. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, absolutely. I think the team aspect of it lends itself to themes of brotherhood and community. You've got coaches, which lends itself to mentorship and role models, and then even just off the court, these kids are showing up for each other and loving each other well, and the coaches are doing the same. And so, yeah, basketball really kind of gets the backdrop, because it's more so about them finding identity and who God made them to be, not just a sport. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you watch them grow. I mean, you watch them process some of the experiences that they're in the midst of going through and you're watching them grow, and the self-awareness that comes through that process is very well depicted in the film. And so, it's just, yeah, you don't have to be a sports aficionado in order to enjoy it. You don't have to be an expert in rugby in order to enjoy In The Paint. 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay, I don't need to study first. Okay. That's a relief. Well, I guess that makes me wonder, what is it about films that evokes emotion in us, if it's like we just talked about a film that non-sports people won't wrestle with, I mean, won't really resonate with or identify with in terms of the actual physical activity component, but we also talked about resonating with films that do have an experience that you have had, like sailing. So what is it about films that cause us to have an emotional reaction in either direction? Ryann, why don't we start with you? 

Ryann Heim: 

Sure. John Pretty, CEO and co-founder of Windrider, says it well. Films introduce us to people we've never met, take us to places we've never been, and it truly isn't, a Roger Ebert quote, an empathy machine. And so, just sitting in a theater, I think you are transported to this new place and to these people who you either see yourself in or you think, "I've never been in this position before." 

And because film does such an incredible job, like story I'd say does such an incredible job of suspending our belief or our reality of sitting in a theater, we've become a part of this story. We are transformed as the people on screen are transformed. We cry with them, we rejoice with them, we get completely bought in, sometimes if it's a well-told story and a powerful story. And so, I think that that element of meeting people you haven't met and going to places you haven't been allows us to buy in, even though it might seem foreign to us. Joining them on their journey is kind of a treat. 

Darrell Bock: 

This takes me back a couple of years at Sundance, but I remember one of the films that we saw, and I actually don't even remember the title of the film, was filmed by a person who had been living on the streets in Washington DC for a long time, and she went to school to learn how to be a photojournalist. And she decided for her topic she was going to go back to where she had been and film the people who she had been hanging out with before she came into this new phase of her life. And it's talking about going to a place I've never been, I mean, I haven't had to live on the streets or anything like that, and I certainly have an impression of who people are who live on the streets, but that film challenged that impression. 

And what you saw were people who tend to be a stereotype in your own mind. You end up connecting to who these people are and what they're going through, and what they're wrestling with and why. And the interesting thing about her choices were she picked some people who had been able to advance off of the street, if I can say it that way, and end up in a good place. And then she picked other people who made the same decisions over and over again, and couldn't leave the streets. 

And so, that contrast, the way she told the story, not only opened up a world that you aren't used to and probably most people watching aren't used to, but also did it in a way that showed the variety of paths that come out of that world of which she was the example, because she did the film, she did, she did the study, and then it talks about the success of... Part of the story was the success that she had in doing the film as a budding filmmaker. 

So that's an example of the type of thing that we're talking about. I also think, you use the quote of the empathy machine, I'm telling people that today, one of the things that's going on in our society that I see as a problem is we're losing a sense or a desire to pursue empathy. And the world's becoming so hostile and so polarized that we really have to extend an extra effort to try and connect with someone who sees the world differently than I do. That kind of thing. And films have a way of presenting that, they aren't talking at you, they aren't shaking a finger at you, they just present, a good story just presents what's happening. And you have to process what you're encountering. 

And I think that that is actually one of the values, the reason I like Sundance in particular, I'd be probably less enthusiastic about going to a film festival that's on feature films, generally speaking, because most feature films don't take you to these places quite so effectively. And the shorts that we get, this is another thing I love about Windrider. Most of the stuff that we see at Windrider is maybe eight, 10, 12, 15 minutes long, which is one, to be able to tell a story in that concise time takes real skill. But when it's done well, it really does hit, and sometimes it's done quite creatively. 

I think about the film that we did see last year called Gruff, which I just thought was an amazing animation. All done in animation, all about relationships, all about a daughter who wasn't connecting to her dad. But the story is about how she ended up connecting to her dad over time and just done so powerfully and so effectively about what gets in the way of relationships and what advances relationships, that it was just a great, great film and it produced the right kind of empathy, the right kind of human sensitivity to the way we should treat people, and sometimes what gets in the way of our treating people well. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting that you bring up that a lot of times in our culture, people don't even want to be empathetic. I almost feel like it's taking it for granted that building empathy is a good thing, but some people, I mean, I should be empathetic to people who don't already come with that perspective. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, when we have a book that's entitled, that's very popular in Christian circles right now, something to the effect of Empathy as a Sin. Compassion and its Counterfeits, I think is the subtitle. And I'm sitting here going, I'm not sure that's healthy to take one of the major attributes of God that actually is responsible for our salvation, his compassion, his mercy, his stretching out and taking the initiative to someone who may not deserve it, but to someone who he cares about. To lose that as a part of what drives the church, I think is problematic and dangerous. 

In fact, I was preaching on it last weekend, because I'm so concerned about the way in which I actually think it's one of the ways our society is breaking down in a negative way, is to lose that element of who we are and the way in which we think about life. And I can be empathetic without agreeing with choices that a person makes. That's the distinction that's missing. People think that empathy necessarily means agreement with something that someone has done. No, empathy simply means wrestling with trying to understand what takes a person to where they're going. And I actually think that's an important part of knowing how to interact with them pastorally. 

Kasey Olander: 

And one of the key phrases I think that you just said, Darrell, is that people are, it's not that empathy is deserved, but it's for people who are cared for and that God cares about people. Obviously, it's not about any of us meriting this relationship that we have with him, but yeah, it's that the flip side of, well, we'll see if they behave themselves and then maybe I'll try to empathize with them, but it's taking the first step. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I think of the parable, sorry to talk so much, but I'm thinking about the parable that begins with the ruler who forgives the person, what I call Bill Gates money. I mean, it's 150,000 years’ worth of wages, which no one ever earns unless you're Bill Gates. And then he goes, and there's a very small debt. He refuses to forgive to the person afterwards. And unless the entire parable is we are supposed to be forgiving, because God has forgiven us much, we should forgive the person next to us who is asking us to forgive little. And I just think it's a core virtue that needs development and nurturing, and I think these films sometimes help you get there. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So Ryann, what is it like for you as you're curating films and helping with that aspect of it to, I'm sure you don't systematically go through and think, "Well, what virtues do we need to cultivate today?" How do you make these decisions? Because we've talked about the power of story and how they may confront us, and resonate with us and evoke all kinds of feelings within us. How do you go about this, the art of curation? 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, that's a great question. I watch a lot of content for sure is the first step. We're lucky to have been in existence for over 20 years, and so we have a lot of connections with industry, with filmmakers, and so I don't always have to go hunting for it. Sometimes it gets sent to me, but really I pay attention to the things that we're talking about as a culture or in the church and keep an eye out. But you can't really control if a topic is going to be meaningful when you see it put in film. Sometimes if a film is topic-driven, it's trying to push a point onto you that maybe doesn't make sense with the story. I'm more interested in story, like good storytelling, the power of story to transform or spark these conversations. So I really just watch a lot and pay attention to my spirit, to the spirit in me. 

I have always been very emotional. I cry pretty easily, and I had a good mentor once tell me, "Pay attention to that. Ask yourself or ask God, what is the spirit moving in you when you cry like that?" 

And so, that's really informed a lot of my curation. I watch film and it just will either resonate or not. If it's told well, or if the story is strong and it tugs at these things like grief or the example that Darrell gave of Gruff, it resonated with me so deeply, because we are always trying to learn how to love each other. And sometimes people are loving us and we don't know it, because we receive love in different ways. And so, the way it was told was so cinematic and beautiful and clever, but it also just was beautiful and spoke to the importance of a father figure, and leaning into how they love and being able to communicate that down to a whole family. 

I also listen, it is a lot about listening. I listen to who the filmmaker is, what's their heart, and what are they trying to communicate with the story they're telling. I listen to my colleagues a lot. There are some films that I curate that I'm like, "This one's okay, I think it's strong. But because it resonated with my friend or another team member, I trust that." I trust that I'm not always going to have the strongest reaction to everything, like a sports film. I got lucky. I programmed a sports film into opening night, made it all loopy, and I was pretty proud of that one. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, that was good. That was good. 

Ryann Heim: 

I was thankful for that. But I just trust that there are things that resonate with me in this film, but if somebody else doesn't always resonate with that, I don't know, universal themes is kind of what I look for. And I am notoriously terrible at telling you why I think something is good. You just have to watch it and see, and then you'll get it. 

Darrell Bock: 

The film that you mentioned, The Turnaround was quite interesting to watch. This is about, I think I would describe it as a tormented Philadelphia Phillies fan. The torment was coming from the Philadelphia Phillies for their inability to be successful on the baseball field. And the side story was here was someone who had wrestled with suicide. So the sport experience and the life experience were tracking along similar challenging lanes and just beautifully, he was passionate about his team on the one hand, but he was dead serious about wrestling with what it was, the way he was seeing life. And of course, the person who put this together is kind of a Windrider favorite, Ben Proudfoot who has produced several things, some of which have won Oscars for the way he does these short, I guess they're documentaries, but they're almost bio-docs. I don't know what else to call them. And again, just a beautiful, beautiful film won then, of course, the Windrider Award for the best narrative. So you did well in curating that one. That was a good choice, Ryann. 

Ryann Heim: 

Thank you. 

Kasey Olander: 

If I remember correctly, he's not a believer, right? The filmmaker, Ben Proudfoot. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yes. He has always shared, he is a big fan of Windrider as we are of him. And so, we invite him back pretty often, and he's always very upfront to say, "I am not a believer, but I do love you guys." 

Darrell Bock: 

But I think it's fair to say that that exchange has sharpened his eye for what he highlights as he tells. I mean, he's done several of these. I mean, I think he did one for the Star from Delta State, who was the first woman ever invited to the NBA. He did one, I think that was on the group, I don't know quite how to describe it. These are the people who repair musical instruments for music programs in the Los Angeles public schools. I think that one was up for an Oscar if it didn't win one. I know the Delta State one won our Oscar, and so he's done these great stories. The one, I think that was it, the one about the Black concert writer whose grandfather owned a laundry business. 

Kasey Olander: 

Concerto is a Conversation. 

Darrell Bock: 

Concerto, yeah, which is just a beautiful, when I talk about Windriders, it's the first film I talk about, because he went in, this shows you his heart. He went in thinking the story was about the honor that this young Black composer had in having the Los Angeles Philharmonic asked him to write a piece of music, and he decided that wasn't the story. The story was the relationship that this grandson had to his grandfather and what the history of life experiences of Black in America was like in the contrast between the two of them. So effectively and powerfully done. 

Kasey Olander: 

And I love that he's demonstrating this richness of experience and beauty with which he creates films. And like you said, he's upfront about not being a believer, but I wonder and we'll pray that these experiences, as he engages in the craft of filmmaking, draw his eye upward to know God, whose creativity he's emulating basically. 

Darrell Bock: 

I think that it's interesting, because what it shows is that there's a relational element that's developed between Windrider and Ben that clearly exists. There's a mutual respect, and he has an appreciation for what Windrider represents in the midst of doing what he's doing. And so, it shows the ability to build a relational connection with someone in an industry that may or may not be one that Christians normally gravitate to. And from a life perspective, that is the essence of what it means to engage in relationship outside from someone in the church, with someone outside the church. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, there's so many directions that we could go. Ryann, you talked about almost this embodied experience that we're having as humans when we engage with film, you talked about whether it's tearful or laughter or whatever, that we come to a film, even though it seems at first glance, maybe like a passive endeavor, because we're just sitting there, that we really come to it with our whole selves, our whole embodied selves when we engage with film. And I guess that's part of the power of storytelling that we keep highlighting, which again reflects on the creator God, who invites us into his story and reveals himself to us through story. So man, there's so many directions we could go. We've done already episodes of The Table podcast about how to a Christian view of emotions, and we've addressed different views on embodiment and beholding beauty, and yeah, there's so many directions, but I'll try to rein us in a little bit. 

Ryann Heim: 

Can I say one thing? 

Kasey Olander: 

Please. 

Ryann Heim: 

I think it can be tempting to go into a movie theater or turn on Netflix or whatever streaming service and turn off, go numb or just aim to be entertained, and that's it. And we just know as humans a good story. You can't be turned off for, it engages you emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, all these ways. I think the power of Windrider and the space we create is that it propels you into conversation. It creates a space for conversation, because if you've shared this experience in the theater with your friends and it's moved you in any way, you'll want to talk about it and to give space to talk about it and process. 

And a lot of these films at Sundance can be really hard. The films at Windrider are really beautiful and rich, and although short films typically, They unpack- you can unpack a lot of conversation with them. And so, I think it's important to make space for that conversation and know that just watching a film may or may not transform you. Typically, the shared experience of it and having a conversation following with peers, strangers, mentors, mentees can be what is the catalyst for change or awareness or transformation. 

Darrell Bock: 

And what's interesting is I call good storytelling deceptively passive, because you're sitting there, but if it draws you in, you're actually you're mentally and spiritually and emotionally quite engaged. And there's nothing passive about the way in which a film captures your attention when it does. And then of course, it triggers the thought that often happens, like you mentioned earlier, I think with Sunfish of boom, you catch yourself reacting and you go, "Well, where'd that come from?" 

And so, there's an element of almost a kind of self-disclosure that can happen in the midst of that experience that can be pretty powerful and revealing. And this is why we take students there, because we think it taps into something about the human soul and psyche that just working with ideas, which is what students are doing at a seminary on a regular basis, doesn't do, or at least not in the same way. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right, yeah, it's a different way to engage for sure. And I love that we just went there. It's like you guys answered the questions that were in my head, so appreciate that. So as we kind of wrap up, Ryann, I'm going to ask if you have any closing thoughts, any final parting word to our listener? 

Ryann Heim: 

Totally. Go type in www.windriderstudios.org/browse and you'll see a ton of the stuff we've been talking about. So we have a Ben Proudfoot collection. It has the Queen of Basketball, which Darrell mentioned earlier, Academy Award-winning. It has The Last Repair Shop, also Academy Award-winning, about the instruments and the young musician students whose instruments are repaired at this shop. And then, even more, A Concerto is a Conversation is on there. And then films like Gruff will be on there soon. So go, it's free to access. And at Windrider's website, windriderinstitute.org, you can retrieve that access link pretty easily. So I would encourage you to do that and explore the film content, be entertained, but also share it. It's meant to be shared and used in Bible studies and movie nights, and chapels and events, because we believe that film has the power and story have the power to spark really thoughtful conversation, bridge divided communities, bring transformation. And so, I would encourage you to go engage with the content. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I encourage people if they're on a long plane flight, my joke is when I fly to Australia from Dallas, there aren't enough good films. But if you're on a plane, look at the documentary section, because sometimes some of the things at Sundance show up in that section. Several of the last international trips I've taken, I've gone, "Oh, I remember that. I saw that two years ago at Sundance." Or on some of the normal Hulu, Netflix, some of the documentary section of these platforms often are showing things that have been displayed at Sundance and in some cases have won awards. So we're not talking about films that are kind of tucked away in a corner. You can get access to them and you can get a sense for what we're talking about, because these are pieces that aren't like the normal stuff that you see in the big movie theater where the real goal is just to give you maybe an entertaining story and a story that distracts. But there's not necessarily anything too profound happening in the midst of that storytelling. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. And by the way, you can go to Hendrickscenter.dts.edu/Library to see the carousel that we talked about earlier of the Windrider films, and we talk about them as beautiful films to make you think. And as Ryann talked about, that they can create a sense of community. I think that was one of my previous misconceptions was like, well, watching a movie is not quality time, not even looking at the people you're with. But as Ryann talked about, the conversations that they can evoke by having had that shared experience afterwards can be really rich and meaningful. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the beauty of a short is that, and we actually try and encourage this, is that you could create some small group meetings around short films like these and generate conversations in your church, small group. And if you want to have a church small group that isn't just made up of believers at the church, but maybe you feel comfortable inviting someone who isn't connected to the church, man, what a great environment to do some reflective outreach and create the environment for a really healthy human conversation that inevitably will raise questions about who we are and what we're about. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Well, time to wrap up. Ryann, thank you so much for being with us and going on this journey and bringing so much to the discussion today. 

Ryann Heim: 

Yeah, thank you so much, Kasey and Darrell. It's just fun to talk to you after every Sundance. And I would encourage all the DTS students to come to the last Sundance and Windrider in Park City in 2026. Those dates are, let's see, January 25th through 30th, so it should be a good time. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then Fort Collins, Colorado. Here we come. 

Ryann Heim: 

Boulder. 

Darrell Bock: 

Boulder, Boulder, sorry, sorry. Yep. 

Kasey Olander: 

Somewhere. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, somewhere in Colorado. It's a college town. 

Kasey Olander: 

So we also want to say thank you to you for listening to us and being on this journey with us, and part of this conversation. Darrell said it well, human conversations are something that we're after. So if you like our show, go ahead and leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app so that other people can discover us as well. We hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. Thanks for listening to The Table Podcast. Dallas Theological Seminary, teach truth, love well.