The Church in Nigeria

Kymberli Cook: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kymberli Cook and I'm the assistant director at the Hendricks Center, and we are so glad that you have joined us today. 

We are going to be continuing our global tour of the church. We have several podcasts where we talk to people who are on the ground in the church, in various countries all around the world. And today we're going to be hearing about our brothers and sisters in Nigeria. 

And we are joined by Emmanuel Toye Sobande, who is a fellow at the Hendricks Center. As well as Niyi Osomo, a pastor and brother in the Nigerian church, who works to really mobilize missions and mobilize the gospel and training pastors all throughout, quite frankly, the world. He's been telling me all the places in the world he's been in the last six weeks, which is incredible. So thank you, gentlemen, so much for joining us. We really appreciate your time. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Absolutely. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Thank you so much, Kymberli, for having me. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Absolutely. So, Niyi, why don't we start with you? Can you tell our listener a little bit more about you, specifically where you are in Nigeria? And just a little bit about the work that you do so that we can get an idea of what part you have in the church in Nigeria. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Oh, thank you so much, Kymberli. Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here and to hear about what God is doing in the Nigerian church. And some of the challenges and the issues that we trust in God to help us to address and to do it. 

My name is Niyi, as you already said. I'm married, I have three beautiful kids, and that's the most important thing to me at the moment. I'm a pastor, trained as a pastor in Nigeria. I started out as a mission pastor of my local church. And afterwards, after some time leading the mission directorate of the church, I started to walk into missions. I mean, one of the mission trips that we had. We had some partnership with some mission agents in Nigeria, and then we decided to go on the mission trip into the northern part of Nigeria where you have limited presence of Christianity. 

And I saw what the missionaries was doing. I mean, laboring very hard on the mission field and there was no spotlight in them, no support, no much prayer backup for them. And I came back with a lot of budding to Lagos. I live in the southern part of Nigeria where you have a lot of churches and there's a large group of priests. What can we do differently about supporting the missionaries that are taking the gospel to the very delicate and very volatile, risky part of northern Nigeria? 

And I was like, "Okay. You know what?" I started to pray about that I'm going decide to put a burden on my heart to begin to mobilize the well-aware churches and Nigerian believers in the southern part of Nigeria to focus on helping the brethren and the brothers in the northern part of Nigeria. And so what we do, I lead an organization that is called Mission Enablers International. 

And at the heart of what we do is to mobilize the Nigerian and the African church to get committed into God's mission and help in finishing the task. So the passion is we have the resources, both human, both material resources to be able to finish the task. But we need to be able to direct our resources well within the limited time that we have to be able to reach the most interior part of Africa and Nigeria with the gospel. 

So the mission organization is just mobilizing the church, supporting missionaries that are left on the mission field. We visited missionaries on the mission field just to support that. I mean, sometimes we've been on the mission field and some missionaries are being so distraught and so overwhelmed that they feel like leaving the mission field. Just at our visitation, they get empowered and strengthened and encouraged to continue to soldier on in the mission field. 

So since we started, I've been to over 400 mission field, encouraging missionaries across 21 countries in Africa and some part of Asia as well. So largely we are mobilizing support for missionaries, mobilizing prayer for missionaries. Mobilizing finances, because most of the missionaries in Nigeria are their support raising missionaries. So they have to raise support both for their own personal need and their own ministry needs. 

So Mission Enablers is an intersection between the missionaries, the mission organization, and the church. We stand right on the middle and really bridging the gap. And tell them, the church, you have the resources. Let's turn out the resources to the place that have the most spiritual need, so that we can jointly work together and finish in the task. So that's pretty much a summary of the things that I'm doing in Nigeria. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Wonderful. I love that. And I love that you described Mission Enablers in just everything that you do with them. It's just, it's beautiful work. And we will get more into northern and southern Nigeria in just a second as far as helping our listener understand the dynamics at play and quite frankly, so that I can understand the dynamics at play because I'd love to hear more about that. 

But before we do, I do want to also give Emmanuel an opportunity. Can you introduce a little about yourself, where you currently are located, and your relationship with the Nigerian church? 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

I'm currently a resident in Dallas, Texas, where I live with my family, my wife and my two lovely children. My journey to Dallas, Texas started with the fact that I had a burden as far back as 2016. I felt there was a gap in my pastoral work. I've been in pastoral ministry for about 24 years plus. And as much as I enjoyed what I do providing leadership, providing training, providing exultation and teaching, I just felt that was a gap that was a need. 

And that need, I couldn't place my hands on it, but I prayed and prayed and I found what was missing. It was the lack of theological education. I felt I needed a theological education to be able to, just not enough for me to, I was given what I don't have. And I felt that there was something missing in my work. And I felt for me to just grow spiritually, not just have the head knowledge, but also the heart knowledge of the lord that I'm serving. 

So I found myself, after struggling for, I don't want to use the word struggle, for a couple of years, I was thinking about a lot of things. I was thinking about my comfort zone, my accomplishments, my assets, my resources and all of that. I was thinking all of that. But after a while, I just got the courage to say, "Look, it's time for me to go to the seminary." 

Now when I was to make that decision, trust me, I was scared. Why? I was scared to tell my wife about that decision. I was thinking, how do I tell her I'm going to leave her and the kids all alone and go to school to do a seminary? But I prayed. I said, "Lord, if it is your will, if it is you who wants me to do this, please help me with wisdom. Help me find a way. Just speak to my wife, just touch her heart." 

Then I recall about two weeks later, we're praying. We had a family prayer and I was to go upstairs to go sleep because I had a long day. I said, "Oh, I'm going upstairs. I want to go sleep." My wife say, she was still going to stay down because she had something to do. Said, "But before you go, I need to talk to you." I'm like, "Okay." Why must it be very official or formal for us to talk? 

She said, "I've been sensing you're very passionate about wanting to go to the seminary. I've been sensing how much you talk about it, how you watch the videos." I used to watch a lot of chapel messages for DTS. I watch a lot of it. I'm listening to those videos over and over again. I play to the children. I shared with my friends. 

And she said, "I think that's what the Lord will have you do. Don't worry about myself and kids. You just go, whatever it is, we'll be fine." And I was like, "Are you sure?" I was so excited that day when she said that, I found myself in detail. And trust me, it's been a phenomenal experience. 

Phenomenal in the sense that I found that I didn't know a lot of things. I was confronted with my ignorance. I must admit that yes, I've been functioning in the pastoral ministry, I've been teaching in schools, I've founded schools, founded leadership schools, founded bible schools, led those organizations. I felt I should know it all. 

But I got, let me confess, one of the first things I was confronted with, not only in terms of pronunciation, in terms of the meaning, was when I sat down in one of my ST classes, systematic theology classes, and I learned that the word of God is inerrant. I was like, "What? What does that mean?" I have to read it. 

Niyi Osomo: 

It's unfathomable, yeah. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

They laugh at me. "That you mean you don't know?" I said, "I've never heard that word before." 

Niyi Osomo: 

Yeah, you never heard. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

I've never heard. And I was exposed to a range of information that transformed my life. The gospel moved from my head to my heart. I met with professors who are loving, who are gracious, who are kind. Who were willing to explain things to me, share. 

Sitting down with those, I said to myself, "This is not just an academic exercise for me, being in DTS is not an academic exercise for me. This is life-changing for me, this is life-transforming." This is not just about me knowing about God's world so I can teach other people. This is about my own growth, my own spiritual development. And I have a lot to say about that. But for the sake of time, I'll just stop at. 

So it was during that time I was asking myself, "So what's life after seminary? What do I get to do with all of this?" And as I was praying and thinking about it, I had read a book that had talked about the Hendricks Center personally, and I'm just trying to get the copy of that book. 

And I had a mental idea of what it was about, but I didn't connect it in any way. Until one day I sat down and Kym was in the chapel presenting on one of those days on giftedness. And I was going to have a flight to go down to the UK. And that whole conversation just put everything in proper perspective for me. 

And fast-forward, I submitted my application. I made the request that I wanted to intern with the Hendricks Center. And it's also another wonderful experience. I've been introduced into a number of leadership things here and there. And I've also had the opportunity on that Kym's leadership to facilitate the planning of a workshop on relational wisdom. And I'm also privileged to serve at the Hendricks Center as a fellow on Christian leadership. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And you've never left, right? We've kept you around. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Yes. I never left. 

Kymberli Cook: 

All right, gentlemen, again, thank you for just sharing a little bit about your lives with us and your ministries and just again, the beautiful things that the Lord is doing through you and in you. 

And let's turn to talking about Nigeria as a country first. We'll get to the church and we can hit on it a little bit as we go. But let's presume that some of the people listening, and it might be a lot of people listening, don't know a ton about Nigeria other than it is in Africa. 

And can you guys tell me a little bit more and tell our listener a little bit more about what's the population? What's the makeup of any kind of ethnic groups? What are any ethnic groups that make up the population of Nigeria? Tell us about the people there and the large people groups. Niyi, let's start with you. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Okay, that's great. Nigeria is an amazing country. Nigeria is in West Africa. We have about over 200 million people. We are the most populous African nation. So one in every Black, one in every Black person is from Nigeria, Black African is from Nigeria. 

Nigeria is a multi-linguistic, multi-ethnic nation. We have over 250 different ethnic group. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Oh, my goodness. 

Niyi Osomo: 

I mean different tribe speaking over 500 languages. So that is a lot of diversity. Nigeria is so diverse. 

So the three major ethnic group in Nigeria is the Yoruba, the Igbo, and the Hausa. And then majority of the Igbos and the Hausa and the Yoruba in the west, the southern part of Nigeria, the southern region. And in that region we have most of the free states. And then the northern region is where you have the Hausa-speaking Muslims and the Fulanis and the Kanuri. 

Nigeria, it's a very religious country. We have a whole lot of churches in Nigeria. We are very passionate people. We're very aggressive. We're very business minded. Aggressive in a very positive way, believing that there is possibility in every impossibility. 

So that's something that is called the Nigerian spirit or the Nigerian spirit is that spirit of possibility. We can push down any wall, go over any mountain, there are no limitation. And then Nigerians are scattered all over the world. I mean, there's a joke that if you go anywhere, go to any country in the world and you don't find a Nigerian there, you better leave that country. Something is wrong. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Something's wrong. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Yeah, that's true. Like I told you, I was in Nepal. I mean the Nigerians in Nepal, in the Himalayan region, it takes you so much hours to get that. You find a Nigerian there. Somewhere in the most interior part of Liberia, Nigerians are there. In South Korea, they're all over, everywhere. 

So there's just really that can do spirit. That's a Nigerian spirit. The can do spirit, everything's possible. And then that let me just really stay with that. There many other thing. There's a lot of revival that's coming up in Nigeria. The politics. We have that. We're trusting God for a very stable politic. The politics of Nigeria, it's a little bit very dicey, but let's leave that. 

Nigerians are very hopeful and happy people, very resilient. For people that have gone through, a lot of people can go to Africa, things that Nigerians have gone through, they will have been broken. That's it. So have a lot of challenges right now economically for a lot of Nigeria. There are a lot of issues that emanate from bad leadership in government. 

And most people find hope in religion and even in their churches. Because many things that the government can provide the church and the religious organization and making that available for their followers as well. 

So I mean gladly, I'll then allow Toye to speak more about some other things that I will mention. But I mean by and large, those are the summary from my own side. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Is there anything you'd add, Emmanuel, before we get into maybe some key? Or you can even as you're- 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Sorry, I'll just add some key statistics. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Sure. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

The key thing that Christianity in Nigeria started in the 15th century by the Portuguese and it was a trade relationship. They were the first Europeans that came into the shores. And it was not until the 17th century that we had the Catholic missions coming in. 

And in recent times, according to the peer research, the current population of Christians in Nigeria is over 80 million. 80 million in the sense that if you compare that to the diverse ethnic group, languages that we have, about 49.3% of Nigerians are Christians. 

And within that same range, you have different classification of Christianity. You have the Catholicism, you have the Anglicans, you have the Methodists, you have the Baptists. You also have other forms of Christianity that some people call Aladura, meaning the prayer warriors or prayer group. And all that. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Niyi has feels about them. 

Niyi Osomo: 

I am. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Of course we have the Presbyterians as well. We have the Evangelical Reformed Church of Christ. But one thing that drives Christianity in Nigeria is the fact that there is a lack of hope in the system. And the church in Nigeria is the only source of hope. 

The church in Nigeria is the only source of hope. Anything that you want to express about the Nigerian church or Christianity in Nigeria, once you look at the word Christianity in Nigeria is synonymous to a source of hope. There is a need for hope. 

People are taking their lives every day. People are getting killed every day. People are getting poisoned every day because of the movement of growth of Christianity in Nigeria. Like Niyi said, there's still a bit of darkness in some places. 

Being from the southwest, we quote and unquote appear to be immune from the tension in other parts of the country. And sometimes it has become normal for us. The level of the persecution, the level of... And it's so woven into the system that it's sophisticated, is not very obvious. You're not just attacked directly. 

But because of the progress that the church has made in trying to provide for the people, in trying to, it had driven the gospel in a direction that, Niyi will share this idea with me that, we believe it needs to be regulated. So that it's now much more driven people towards looking at having a framework, an idea of God just as a provider, not as someone you should have a relationship with. 

But the people who are yearning for direction, they're yearning for hope, they're yearning for leadership. And the church is the one doing that right now in Nigeria. Let me stop at that. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So talk to me briefly, before we jump too much more into, I love that you were introducing the church in helping us even understand the country itself. Talk to me a little bit about some key historical moments or things that you say, "Hey, if you're going to understand Nigeria, you need to know that these few things have happened." 

And I mean even off the top of my head I'm thinking, okay, so why the north and the south? What happened that there's this very tangible split or at least religious split north and south. So what are some key moments or key things that we should understand to understand the country of Nigeria? 

Niyi Osomo: 

Okay, let me allow Emmanuel to speak to that. I can speak to that, but let me allow you if you want to, but go ahead. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Go on. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Okay. So the Nigeria was colonized by the British for so many years, and then they ruled majorly through the indirect rule. So they have local indigenous Nigeria that was ruling, representing the Queen of England as it were. So they were the one, I mean Nigeria was separated into different regions, the northern region and the southern region. 

Way ahead of time, Islam has come into the northern part of Nigeria to trade. Like Christianity came into the southern part through the European missionaries and traders bringing Christianity into Nigeria. So the, what's it called, the people that brought Islam to Nigeria came into the northern region. So they had a foothold in the northern path while Christianity had a foothold in the southern path. 

So the Christians trying to take, move or evangelize the northern part, sees a lot of resistance because of what Islam has done. And because there was indirect rule by some, by what's it called, by their own cells in the north. So they continue to emphasize Islam and made it very difficult for Christians to penetrate. 

So when Christianity was introduced into Nigeria by the European missionaries, one of the things that accelerated Christianity in Nigeria was they provided education, social intervention, and healthcare. So there was a lot of Christian schools, made people become educated and became literate. 

And then they were providing social intervention through healthcare and the building of Auspit who was a cater to the needs of the people. So as people were getting educated and became literate, so was Christianity advancing in the southern part and the middle belt, the central region of Nigeria. 

But there was still a bit of challenge to penetrate into the northern part because there was already Islam in that part of Nigeria. So there was an introduction of Sharia Law and in the major where you have a lot of population in the northern part, Christianity is just growing and there's a lot of resistance. 

So some part of northern Nigeria, they do not allow the open preaching of the gospel. Whilst in the southern path, everywhere you turn to, you'll find the church. You find someone preaching everywhere and anywhere without any form of restriction and all of those kind of challenges. 

So we do a lot of work in northern Nigeria, like I said, visited some of the most interior part of northern Nigeria. Just working with missionaries to be able to take the gospel there. And there's been a lot of persecution, like to a nation, we've seen churches have been burnt down. We've seen people have been raped and all manner of terrible human right crimes have been committed against Christians. 

There's some of the missionaries that we work with, they were kidnapped for 52 days. They were beaten every day, seven days a week. All of those kind of stuff. So the Christians in the northern part of Nigeria are really different from the Christian in the southern part. A lot of them are forged in the furnace of adversity. So they understand the theology of suffering. They are very open to persecution, they're kind of really ready for that. 

And they have committed to following Jesus to their head. They're not afraid for their life because that's what they kind of really experienced like all of the time. But the Christians in the south, we are just very relaxed. There are no limitations to what we can do. There's a lot of prosperity among the Christian in the south. 

That's where you have the economic capital of the nation, Lagos. So there's a lot of economic prosperity, a lot of education, a lot of awareness, a lot of exposure in the southern part. So there is so much opportunities, education, exposure, financial buoyancy, and all of that. So we see a lot of proliferation of churches in the southern part. 

And the growth of Christianity continue to increase more and more in the southern part of Nigeria. Right? So it's right is that all of the denominations are well represented in the southern part, have been more in the northern part of Nigeria, the church denominations that we have. 

We do not have a lot of Pentecostal churches, but we have the Evangelical, we have the Protestant, and we have the Roman Catholic, the Baptists, the Anglican, the Methodist, the Presbyterian, the Lutheran church. And then we have what we call the COGIC, that's a church of God, church of God in Christ in Nigeria. 

So the Christians in the north, they've gone through a lot and they continue to suffer severe persecution. They continue to suffer severe harassment, intimidation. They're exposed to risk all over the time. The risk of kidnapping. There's some of the mission field that I've traveled to, that they no longer exist, that they're wiped out. People are kidnapped for ransom. 

A lot of them have been, they're suffering a lot of economic disadvantage because they're not able to go to their farms anymore because of the fear of attacks. So you see some of the Christian worshiping in burned churches singing and still praising the Lord in spite of the opposition. But that's not what we experience in the south. 

So one of the things that we're trying to do is to connect the heart of the Christians in the south to the sufferings and the pain of the brothers back in the northern part. And to let them understand though, guys, we are brethren, the blood of Christ flows in our veins. And I don't think we'll see any of our brothers and sisters going through pain and we're going to ignore that. 

So what can we do to alleviate the sufferings of our brethren in the northern part? How can we continue to encourage them? Just how do we solve for some of the challenges that they're facing? So that's one of the mandates that I have. Just bringing that kind of information to the church in the south. And don't be insulated. Let's join hands together and let's see how we can help with what's happening. 

And then there's still, I mean, we're still pressing to see how we can share the gospel with the people in northern part, and God has given us a lot of open opportunities to do that. So we're using medical missions. We're doing missions, providing economic support for them and all of that. 

So just really to have, we call it access ministry, whatever it is, it gave us access to all of those community and to be able to help them. So for us at Mission Enablers, we planted, we built schools in some part of northern Nigeria because we are trying to do 360 degree missions. We go to some of the mission field and we look at the young kids, they're just running anywhere. We can almost see no future for them. 

I believe, okay, how can we get them educated? And we try to build schools. And unfortunately because of the Boko Haram and all of the insurgency, the Muslim fundamentalist and the fanatics, we had to shut down some of the schools because the lives of the teachers were in danger. And even the student. 

And some of the parents will not even want their children to come to school because of the volatility that's happening. All of that. Nonetheless, we're still gaining ground in those places. So that's almost like the experience between the southern part and the northern part as regard Christianity. So those are the experiences. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So let me ask just a follow-up question. So you said your work is attempting to connect the southern church with the northern church. But you also mentioned, both of you mentioned, several different denominations that might be present in both. Are there? Just talk to me a little bit about the networking or any network that is present with the north and the south churches? Or is it really quite disparate? 

Niyi Osomo: 

I mean, yeah, there's a network. We have a Christian Association of Nigeria, that's like the umbrella body for all of the Christians in Nigeria, we call it CAN. We have the different other network. We have the PFN, the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria and all of that. And because of the, as we mentioned, diversity in Nigeria, it really makes a lot of things very difficult. 

There are different doctrinal beliefs and all of that. Yes, even within the Pentecostal, what's it called, entity permit me to use that word. There's still a lot of differences in our beliefs and in our doctrines and in terms of interpretation of doctrine. If for example, there's some denomination that believes you can't dress a certain way, you have to dress another way. 

There's some denomination that believe that you know what, this is the way you have to worship. So there's some emphasis on non-essential sometimes. And then we de-emphasize the essentials and that kind of really create a bit of gap. So sometime we have people that are Pentecostals, but they cannot align or sit on the same table. Because of the doctrinal belief or the denomination of beliefs, so to speak. 

So it's something that we're trying to look at and say, "You know what, how do we cross all of those imbalances, all of those friction and look at the essentials and look at how we can reach out to the people that are in need?" 

So we are working with all of the different denomination. Majorly, the Anglican Church, the Baptists, the, what's it called, the Presbyterian, the Pentecostal, and all of that. To see how we can governance everybody together for a singular kingdom as purpose, which is to have the people that are in need. 

Forget your differences, put it aside for a little while. There is that kingdom issues that we need to deal with. Can we deal with those issues? And just have the peculiar needs that are there? And then we've seen some churches come alongside us to do that. 

But more often than not, to be very honest, we have a lot more individual Christians rising up to the occasion to show empathy, to show love, and to stand up to defend the Christians that are going through very difficult time in the northern part of Nigeria. It's something that we need to continue to spotlight. I mean for anyone listening to the podcast, it's a prayer point, is a need point, and it's something that we all need to pay attention to. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Emmanuel, what else? What would you add as far as the challenges that you've seen that the church, in addition to what Niyi is talking about, the challenges that the church in Nigeria is wading through? 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Niyi has done a good job presenting the facts as it is. The area of emphasis is that historically what makes the north very diverse from the south is the foothold of Sharia Law and the lack of education. 

What made Christianity thrive in Nigeria, especially in the south, is education. But with the Sharia Law in the northern parts of Nigeria, you are not allowed to go to school. Education is not important. The education you need is the education from the Quran. 

So that actually just has gone deep into the fabric of that society and the cultural orientation of the people. Now that Sharia Law has prevented, right now in Nigeria we have over 25.73 million children out of school, of which 17.7 million of those children are from the north. 

17.7 million of those children are from the north. I lived in the north, I was there for a while. And you will see children on normal day who are supposed to be in school, trading on the street, walking around on the streets, doing nothing. Selling petty things that you wonder how would this be able to feed the family? And that's what the Sharia Law provides for. 

So that we've had situations whereby a young lady who is a Christian was burnt alive because in a WhatsApp group chat in her class, she mentioned the name Jesus. Or she said something about they should not impose their own religious, their own Sharia Law on her. She has a freedom of expression. And they picked her up and she was burnt alive. Now the consequence of that is that there was no, there's no justice system that punishes those offenders. 

Still today, churches that were burnt alive, Christians that were killed. We've had pastors of churches killed live, slaughtered. I don't want to sound very gory, but we don't have a justice system in that part of the world that addresses those situation because of the religious position that they've taken. 

So that it's a political conversation and it's so sensitive that even the president cannot weigh in. Even the judiciary at the center cannot weigh in on those issues because if you do, you'll lose your political clout or your political credibility. Because the way religion is energized, so infused into the political system, people vote along the lines of the religious beliefs of the people and it's a rotational thing. 

So that foundation in itself is what also creates that divide, that creates that block, and creates that problem. And we've seen a lot of people run away from that part of the country down to the other parts of the south. 

And the south is not also free from it. Because in every home in the southwest, you have a blend of, in your family, especially from the southwest, you have a blend of somebody who is a Muslim or somebody who is a Christian and they're related. They're their brothers, or that one is a husband. Or one for example, we've had situations where politicians go out of their way to marry a Muslim or marry a Christian so that it becomes a credit to them or talking point or action period. 

So that's just one major, major area that I want to add to what Niyi has said, which it's informed the decision and the policies of the government. I forgot to mention, I don't know that Niyi remembered the Almajiri children. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Oh, yeah. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

That one of the former set up a school for. Because these children, what they were trained to do, what they were trained to beg on the streets. They carry bowls and they have a school for them. They teach them how to beg for food, beg for money. And that's how they exist. 

Of course they're also the hands that they use for crime. That's where they indoctrinate them and all of that. Instead of getting, because there's a provision in Sharia Law that they emphasize, I have not seen a do not know if it truly exists, that says Western education is forbidden, that Western education is an abomination. 

Now being able to read and write and communicate in English for them is Western education. It has to be Arabic. So all of that now, we now have state governments in Nigeria who have decided to govern their state by the provision of the Sharia Law, not the Nigerian constitution. 

And meanwhile, article 10 of the Nigerian constitution declares Nigeria a secular state, that Nigeria does not have any religion. But yet you see a Governor Wike and promulgate a law or establish a bill and say, "Look, I'm going to govern my state in contravention to the provision of the constitution." He's governing the state by Sharia provisions. And that has been going on. 

Right now, we even have a Sharia police force called, I've forgotten their name. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Hisbah. Hisbah. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Hisbah. They go everywhere to beat people up, to deal with people. If you make a mistake of preaching on the street, they pick you up. In fact, before it was beaten, but right now it's instant death. So we see jungle justice being carried out and there are no consequences for it. No government is able to do anything. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I was smiling a little bit, not at all at the state of what you were talking about, but at how you were rolling. Because before he came to seminary, Emmanuel was also a lawyer in Nigeria. So I heard you referring to the constitution and being like and getting rolling with that. So it's beautiful. You could just keep doing it. But I was smiling because I could hear you starting to think through the Nigerian constitution. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So we've talked a lot about the challenges, understandably. And particularly the persecution faced in the north. And the south's really the need, their need to connect and support and also deal with the variety of things that they're dealing with. Even the corruption and those kinds of things that are, it seems you guys are saying is pretty consistent throughout. 

So what about in the midst of those challenges? What victories have you all seen of the Nigerian church or the Lord through the Nigerian church? Where you say, "Oh, man, but the Lord is doing this." And especially so we don't have, I will warn you, we don't have a massive amount of time here, but I want to talk about this. 

But I also want to hear in the midst of hearing some even stories of victories for the church or of the church, I would love for you all to speak to what is it that, especially those of us in the West, who would be the vast majority of people probably listening to this podcast, though not all. But for those in the West or elsewhere in the world, what should we as Christians learn from our brothers and sisters in Nigeria? 

What is it that the Nigerian church has to teach us? Emmanuel, why don't you start? And again, we don't have super long, so be crisp. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

I think one of the most important victory is the revival that started in our campuses, on our campuses. Where the Nigerian churches went into the campuses. Me and Niyi are a product of that. Where people, we catch them young as just resuming to college. And the first thing they are introduced to is that on this campus you need God. 

Of course, the first year shakes a lot of people, there's a need for prayer. And because Nigerian students don't have educational loans or bank loans to be able to bankroll, they have been able to go to college. It's a luxury in Nigeria, your ability to go to college, and you have a father who can pay for it. For example, myself and my siblings, we are five and all of them studied major courses. 

And I recall when I was asking my dad, when he's going to buy a new car for the family? And he was like, "Look, I have four of your siblings in college right now. That is unprecedented. If I buy a new car, that means you are going to lose out. You're not going to go to school. What do you want to do? I'm saving up for your future." 

So it puts people in the position of compromise, where there's no economic empowerment, people are prone to crime. But what the church has done particularly is to be able to reduce the crime index by providing scholarship funding for schools. Such as in Nigeria are setting up private schools, private universities, and subsidizing it a whole lot. 

I know of a church in Nigeria who is subsidizing the schools and the operational cost of that school by almost 85%, 80 to 85%. So that it can become affordable for young people to. And when they come to school, they get to be trained in Christian values, they get to know the Lord, they get to be acute, they get to be strengthened. 

That is one major victory with the churches. Of course, the social intervention of setting up teachings for people to go eat, being able to afford the meal. Providing not just meals for people, but also supporting with housing facilities. Some churches are doing that quietly. 

There's a lot, but I just want to stay on the educational bit, which I think is the place where the revival has taken place the most. We call our universities our theological school because you learn you're to practice your faith, of our work. We are reading, we don't have a lot of the orthodoxy. That's where we don't have a lot of those teachings and theology. 

But working, we go by faith. We built the resilience that we have in us as Nigerians from the schools we attended. We built that resilience. Ability to withstand problems, withstand challenges, and not be broken. 

I was shocked when I heard the news of a friend of ours who lost his money in Nigeria digital economy situation, thousands of dollars. And how he attempted suicide. He wanted to kill himself and eventually he succeeded. The other person had. And I'm thinking that is not like us. For him, it was- I went through a similar situation, but I didn't attempt to take my life. But what I can guarantee is that we've seen people help them. 

Churches also set up a lot of health institutions, hospitals, paying hospital bills. That is one amazing victory where we are able to receive people into a Christian fold. That's one of the victories. Those two highlights are the health and education. I will allow Niyi to say the rest. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Niyi, here's your chance. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Okay, thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

You got all excited when I asked about the victories and what the Western church should learn. 

Niyi Osomo: 

There's so many things happening within the church in Nigeria in spite of the many challenges that we're dealing with. Right now in Nigeria we're experiencing a revival of prayer and worship that's really like a wildfire. Every morning we have about 100,000 people praying on different social media platform. 

I mean, we started out during COVID, like a young Nigerian pastor, called Pastor Jerry Eze, just started to lead people in prayers. And that just really caught up like a wildfire spreading across different regions of Nigeria, across the continent and way beyond the continent. So there's a lot of people praying and we are seeing that revival. 

And then with worship as well too. There are a lot of sound that is coming from Nigeria. Authentic worship sound that has been exported across different part of the continent and part of the world. One of them is Waymaker. Promise Keeper by Synapt. By the way, that song is a, it came out of Nigeria. 

So just kind of releasing all of those revival prayer and worship. And then we were seeing a lot of open-ness to sound biblical doctrine. Sound teaching, word of faith and all of that. There's a man who is called Pastor Joshua Selman. On Sunday evening, we have about 60,000 people constantly gather together to hear very sound teaching, which is one of the major challenges that we've had. 

I mean there's been a lot of, oh, there's prosperity, but there's prosperity theology and all whatnot, that people have really tagged to Nigeria. So we are seeing a return of sound biblical teachings come back, their apostolic doctrine is coming back. And for those who believe in miracles and healings, we are seeing transformation in that regard. 

Like Toye, right, he said there's a lot of economic disadvantage in Nigeria. And people cannot afford to go to the hopstials and they're seeking their body. There must be a solution. And God, maybe God is just like, "I need to fix this problem whichever way." And then people will see- 

Kymberli Cook: 

Because there's no money. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Because there's no money. God is merciful. And then we see a lot of very unusual miracles, signs and wonders happening in Nigeria, and it's been exported to different path. 

And then lastly, the Nigerian church is so, we live by faith. We are resilient because the majority of the things that we need are not available. So we've trusted to believe God for everything that we need. And I think that's one of the things that the church in the West can lend. Paid for everything. 

The infrastructure that you really see. You have power, electricity, the roads are working, everything is available. You have a credit system and all of that. We don't have all of that yet. We had to really depend on God and release our faith. It's almost like the church shall live by faith. The Nigerian church lives by faith. The Nigerian believer lives by faith, trusting God for every day. And we see God show up in very practical way. 

So those are the three, the revival of worship, revival of prayer, return to apostolic, deep biblical sound doctrine, and the faith of the Nigerian church. And lastly, the Nigerian church. I belong to the mission movement in Nigeria and the Nigerian church is a sending church. We sending missionaries all over. 

It's reverse mission right now. Before the West is sending missionary to the south. Now the global south is sending to the West. So the Nigerian mission movement is a movement of over 15,000 missionaries, some of them working indigenously, and over 50% of those working in different parts of the nations of the world. 

So that is another thing to rejoice about in the Nigeria, about the Nigerian church. There's so many testimonies, but I think that's some of the things that I would like to highlight and spotlight for now. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well, that's so beautiful. And I especially love the idea of other believers all throughout the world, particularly the West, but learning faith. And saying, "Nigerian brothers and sisters, I struggle with faith. Can you?" 

In fact, it's ironic. I just did a podcast two days ago on doubt, and we've recorded on doubt. And so it just obviously doubt could be in the presence of faith. The opposite of doubt is unbelief. 

But it's this idea that that's some of the things that the Western church can kind of struggle with. And so our Nigerian brothers and sisters can say, "Oh, we can tell you and we can teach you about faith. The Lord has given us those lessons and we can instruct." And I think that the rest of the church would be wise to listen. 

Thank you, gentlemen, for your time and for your testimony of God's work and his body in Nigeria. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here. 

Emmanuel Toye Sobande: 

Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Niyi Osomo: 

Thank you so much, Kymberli. So you have an open invitation to come to Nigeria from me. Whenever you're ready, you can take on that. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Thank you. I may take you up on that. That would be fantastic. 

And we also want to thank you, our listener, for joining us today. And if you enjoyed today's podcast, please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so that others can find us too. And be sure to join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture.