Christianity in South Africa

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendrick Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And our topic today is Ministry in Africa, Southern Africa in particular. And my guest is Greg Seghers. Welcome, Greg. 

Greg Seghers: 

Thank you. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I'll tell you just a touch about him. He met his wife, Carlene, who I just met for the first time through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. And you've been married since 1985, three married sons and five grandchildren. So, let's hear it for Genesis 1. Moving their family to South Africa in 1993. They ministered in an African indigenous church movement called... and I'm not sure I'm going to get this right pronunciation wise, amaZioni? 

Greg Seghers: 

It's close. AmaZioni. 

Darrell Bock: 

AmaZioni. Okay. In Southern Africa. Well, that covers countries running from Zambia and Mozambique south to South Africa, although I'm just hearing that there are others now who are contacting. And we'll talk about who the amaZioni are later on. Sharing Christ with the amaZioni for 29 years, Greg and Carlene transitioned their ministry with ZEMA back to the U.S in 2022. And they currently serve as ZEMA's home office directors. And ZEMA stands for Zion Evangelical Ministries of Africa. I remember when you first told me about this, I thought Zion was about Israel. So, what in the world is going on? 

Greg Seghers: 

I'll have to give you a history lesson. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's okay. 

Greg Seghers: 

So, there are approximately about 20 million people that call themselves amaZioni, that live in Southern Africa. And it's a Zulu word and it means people of Zion. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. Okay. 

Greg Seghers: 

But it has nothing to do with Israel. And it has everything to do with a town north of Chicago called Zion Illinois that was started in 1900 by a guy named John Alexander Dowie, who had a ministry in Chicago during the World's Fair. Then he started a church in 1896. And then he bought up farmland north of Chicago and he was going to set up the Zion cities all over the world where the church ran the city. But he started in 1900. 

And because of his influence with the Chicago World's Fair, there were people from different parts of the world that followed Dowie's teaching, which was basically salvation in Jesus Christ, that if you follow Jesus, you live a holy life. And that God had the power to heal people so he would pray for the sick. And so, this teaching spread. And he also was innovative. He would put out 750,000 newsletters or leaves of healing it was called a year that went all around the world. And so, this teaching made it to South Africa. In 1904, he sent a missionary, Daniel Bryant, and began to establish and work with church leaders that were following this teaching. Dowie died in 1907, Bryant returned back to Zion City in Illinois. And the work just exploded in Southern Africa. And I don't know if you want me to keep going on some of the detail about the characteristics of the church movement. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, we'll come to that. So, let me stop you there, because we got to figure out how you got into the story. So, let's work back. So, you were telling me you came to the Lord in college at the age of 20, right? 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you met your wife at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, which is I guess a terrific parachurch ministry in which many people meet their spouse. 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's where we met. And we were both involved and I was in leadership at the time. And I was three years older than her, so she came in as a freshman. But I was in going into the physical therapy program and she was pre-physical therapy. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

Greg Seghers: 

So, people were introducing her and say, "Hey, you need to meet Greg." 

Darrell Bock: 

Very good. So, now I also noticed you mentioned Chicago. I also noticed that Moody Bible Institute apparently has at least a partnership, or a relationship, or a connection to you. Is that right? Or is that just this was on your webpage? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yes. Mm-hmm. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, does that go back to the time in the 1900s or more recent? 

Greg Seghers: 

No, Dowie and Moody were contemporaries of each other. But no, it doesn't go back to that point. But I think it was in 1995, we had a team from Moody Bible Institute that was led by Ray Badgero. And he brought about 17 or 18 students and they spent six weeks doing the work with us amongst the amaZioni in South Africa. And also we did a trip into Malawi. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

Greg Seghers: 

And I think that that's where the work began to open up, that it got outside of just Zion, Illinois, and it became more known that, hey, this is something that God's doing and we need to partner and get together. And so, one of the things that Dr. Badgero said to us at that time, he said that he's been all over Africa. And that he said that he's never seen a mission organization that has the potential to touch the continent of Africa like ZEMA does because of the open door that we have with amaZioni. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, the amaZioni is we've suggested live in many different countries. Is that right? 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I think I've mentioned Zambia, and Mozambique, and South Africa, and I think you mentioned Uganda and Kenya are coming into the mix. Is that right? 

Greg Seghers: 

Just in the last six to eight months, we began to get correspondence from a Zionist up in that area asking for us to come and bring Bible teaching to them. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, this is, I guess a teaching, and discipleship, and evangelistic ministry. Is it more teaching and discipleship than evangelism or is it a mix? Because in Africa, I mean it could be all of that. 

Greg Seghers: 

You're right. So, now this goes back to your podcast that you did in 2022 with the two pastors from South Africa. And one of the things that I noticed when I listened to that was that they're accurate in that the amaZioni churches of the African Independent Church movement, they skew the numbers for the amount of Christian churches. But one of the things that is known is that many in the amaZioni movement are syncretistic. And so, whether they have combined a form of Christianity with their traditional African religion, which is the appeasing of the spirits of their dead relatives, to bring good luck and keep bad luck away. 

And so, historically, the amaZioni have been closed to outside organization or churches coming to them. And the reason that is because the approach that they've done is that they will go and share the gospel with them. And then they will, if they become followers of Jesus, they say, "Okay, now you got to get out of the Zionist church." And so, the Zionist churches historically haven't been open to them. Our approach is different. With ZEMA, we have an historical connection with the church that started the movement. And so, our approach, our ethos of our ministry is we tell them, no, stay Zionist. We're not trying to make Western churches or plant western churches. But let's get back to the true teaching of Zion, and that's the word of God and the authority of Jesus Christ. And building a trust relationship with them. And they're just open to those who come as representatives of Zion, and they cross that bridge, and they immediately have an open door because there's a trust relationship that's been developed over the years. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I've mentioned several countries here. I don't think I've mentioned Zimbabwe. Are they in the mix as well? 

Greg Seghers: 

Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique, Eswatini, Lesotho, Botswana. We don't know how far they go up north. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

Greg Seghers: 

But in the beginning, the reason that it spread that way was because many of the men were coming down and working in the mines in Johannesburg back in the 1900s. And that after they would go back to their... they become followers of Zion teaching. And then they would take that teaching back to their home countries. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you all are responsible for 89 Bible schools around, is that number still right? 89 bible schools and 2,400 students. 

Greg Seghers: 

So, I just got the latest statistics and we're at 86 Bible schools. They're satellite schools. We have about 2,500 students this year. The school started in 1995 was the very first school that was started. And it was interesting, our idea at that time, there was only four families that were working with ZEMA at that time. But our idea at that time was to have centers and that they would come to us. And we almost immediately realized that that wasn't going to work because they were coming from seven, eight hours away. And then after a while that they'd be coming for that distance, they would then come to us and say, "Hey, 30 or 40 other pastors that would love to be here that can't afford it. Could you come and start a Bible school in our area?" 

And so, that's how it began to slowly grow into what it is today in that satellite schools that are... pretty much if that, there's a group of Zion leaders that contact us and say that they would like to have a school in their area. We say, "Well, you organize it and then we'll bring the teachers to you with the lessons and all of that sort of thing." But they've got to organize the plate, the venue, and advertise for it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you mentioned, I think ancestors in the syncretism. That's not that unusual in certain parts of the world. I mean, I think of Asia where association with ancestors is a big deal. I guess my question is this, part of the reason we do these podcasts is to help people get a picture of what the church around the world is like, and particularly what particular cultures are experiencing. What else perhaps marks the syncretism that an indigenous African person would have that I imagine is part of the challenge of ministering in this area? 

Greg Seghers: 

So, a couple of the things that come to mind is that if they're sick or if things aren't going well, that then their ancestors are not happy with them. And that they then will go to a witch doctor and they will then get a message of what is the problem. Someone's causing this issue. And so, they'll go and get that information. And then they will say that your aunt, or your grandfather, or whatever is hungry and that you need to make a sacrifice. And so, they'll have a sacrifice of a sheep, or a goat, or a cow, or something along those lines to appease that spirit. And then they will then wear a skin bracelet on their wrist. And that will signify to them to remind the ancestors that they have done what they needed to do. 

Darrell Bock: 

They've responded. 

Greg Seghers: 

They've responded. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Interesting. So, yeah, I tell people that in different parts of the world, the way in which the whole spirit world is seen is very, very different. I mean, in the West, in many places people don't even recognize that spirits exist and that kind of thing. And then in other parts of the world, they're very, very present. I remember my first awareness of this was actually before I was a believer, I was in and we visited a place called Chichicastanango, which has a syncretism with the indigenous Indians who are in Guatemala. And they were burning incense and had all kinds of things going on. And I'm going, this is very, very different than the world that I live in. 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah, yeah. There's even part of their belief is that if a snake comes to their hut, then that's an ancestor that's come to bring a message. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Greg Seghers: 

So, that's part of their belief system. So, the issue then is that that's part of the church experience of the amaZioni of some of them, not all of them, but some of them. And they will have prophets who will receive messages from the ancestors, and then they will then give that to that person. And as part of the service, they will have a sacrifice that takes place that goes on during their service, as well as they'll have communion, or baptism, and Christian singing, and the Bible. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's what syncretism is. I mean, it's a mix. 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah. And so, what's been fascinating for me over the decades that I was teaching is that during the schools... So, let me back up a little bit. One of the things that we do is that we get invited to the churches. When they hear about these representatives of Zion coming, they invite us to their church services, which I don't know if you've had the experience of going for seven or eight hours in a church service, but that's how they do it for 11 o'clock at night until about 6:00 in the morning. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, so it's through the evening? 

Greg Seghers: 

It's through the evening. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. That's another difference. Okay. 

Greg Seghers: 

You have to be a little bit energetic when you're preaching at 2:00 in the morning. 

Darrell Bock: 

I guess you get a nap before the service or something. 

Greg Seghers: 

Or during it sometimes. 

Darrell Bock: 

We probably shouldn't go there. But anyway. 

Greg Seghers: 

And so, they will do their services, and their program, and that sort of thing. And then they will look to us and say, "Okay, it's your turn now." And so, we don't put down what they're doing, but what we do is again, we lift up the authority of the Bible, we lift up the authority of Jesus, and we then stay around and they have a meal afterwards, of course, in their culture. And then begin to engage and talk to them, and invite them to the Bible schools. And then that's how the relationships are developed. But one of the most asked questions that I got in my years of being a teacher in the schools was, what does the Bible have to say about ancestor worship? And it's in a non-confrontational way, so we can talk about it. And I would ask them, "Well, what verses do you use to support it?" 

And they have verses that they use to support it. The passage in Ezekiel, the prophecy over the dry bones. That's one passage. And they would say that, and then I would say, well, let's look at the context of that. And then they use the 1st Thessalonians passage of, "Do not be ignorant about those who have fallen asleep." They say, "See, we're trying not to be ignorant about that. We're teaching our children that this is what you do to those of our relatives who have passed away." And again, you then go in and you give the context of it and help them to see what that passage means. And it's a process of them letting go of that and seeing that, "Okay, we're doing things that aren't pleasing to God, and so we need to stop doing those things." 

A story that I liked telling is that after about the third year at Sunbury, which is the camp that I lived at, and we had one of the schools, there was about 30 students. And they wanted to have more discussion about what the Bible says about ancestral worship. And so, after class, the teacher stayed around, the students stayed around, and we had that discussion for a couple hours. And then one of the older bishops in the back, he stood up and he said, "I think I get it what you white missionaries are saying to us. You're saying that when we become followers of Jesus, there's things in our culture that we need to leave behind." But then he said this and he looked at us and he said, "When, you became a follower of Jesus, what did you leave in your culture?" And he sat down. And that question has affected me for the last 25 years. 

Darrell Bock: 

Sure. Yeah. Very interesting. Do you know why they worship in the evening? 

Greg Seghers: 

So, culturally, there's a belief that the spirits are more active. So, those who are not followers of Jesus, they believe that the spirits are more active at midnight. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. So, I mean, again, part of why we do these is to have people understand the way different people in different parts of the world see the world, and what goes on in it, and how they perceive that. And then the challenges to ministry that come as a result of some of these differences. Some of which are benign, but some of which actually do have issues tied to them that need attention. So, it's interesting. So, you've got the Bible schools. Are there just, for lack of a better description, missionaries who work in the area as well? Or is everything tied to these Bible schools? 

Greg Seghers: 

So, we have 18 families that are working with ZEMA. But part of that 18 families is that we also get missionaries seconded from other mission agencies. So, team SIM, DMG, which is a German mission. So, we have missionaries from those missions that have seen the tremendous open door that we have and have loaned us missionaries. So, most of our missionaries are in the South African region. And then we have a missionary in Eswatini. And then the missionaries that are in the Johannesburg area, which is in the northern part of South Africa, they've been going into Zimbabwe and then also now they're going into Malawi. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, is there a particular set of regions in South Africa that get a lot of attention? Or is it spread across the country? 

Greg Seghers: 

It's spread across the country. Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban, and in between. And now spread all. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, South Africa is a fascinating country. I go every other summer basically our summer there and there's certain places I haven't been. I've never been to Durban. I've been to Cape Town regularly. Johannesburg, Pretoria pretty regularly. So, yeah, that's the normal swing for me. 

Greg Seghers: 

Carlene and I were based about an hour north of Durban. So, we got some really nice weather then for the most part in that area. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Now, it's interesting, most people don't realize this, but there's a significant Indian population in parts of South Africa as well. But I'm assuming that that's a whole completely different cultural and demographic presence in South Africa as opposed to the indigenous African free independent churches? Or has there- 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. We have been partnering with a Indian pastor up in the Northern KwaZulu-Natal area that has been working with us and has been teaching with us in the ZEBS program. And the ZEBS is what the school is called, Zion Evangelical Bible School. And so, that's probably our only contact with them then. There isn't that I'm aware of. There's no Indian people that are involved in the Zionist churches. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. And again, this is just from memory, I may not be right, but I think it's the Durban area in particular where the Indian population is concentrated? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah, in that KwaZulu-Natal area. And the reason, I don't know if you know the history of it, but they came over as indentured servants to work in the sugarcane fields. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, really? No, I didn't know that. 

Greg Seghers: 

And so, this is what I've been told is that it's the largest population of Indians outside of the country of India are living in that area. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. I mean, when I was first being told this, I was totally surprised. Of course, I'm in the middle part of the country for the most part. Like I said, Johannesburg, Pretoria, Cape Town. And so, I've never been to the eastern coast of India, which is where we're talking about. 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, what's it like to come out of the West and... well, you know what? I forgot. You have a story to tell. So, how did you get into this to begin with? I mean, what's a nice InterVarsity Christian Guy, how does he end up in South Africa ministering to indigenous Africans? 

Greg Seghers: 

So, I won't give you a too long a version, but I'll give you a little bit of a version. So, in the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, I went on a trip with Operation Mobilization down to Ciudad Juarez, and we did a blitzkrieg of the town. There was college students from Canada, from United States, and from Mexico that came together and worked with churches. And then from that experience, I began to receive newsletters from agencies that were working with the Muslim population. So, I was praying through those each time that I would get it. And one of the main prayer requests was pray for more workers. And it wasn't like God spoke to me verbally, but it was like, "Well, Greg, why don't you? Why don't you go there?" 

And so, I always had a desire to tell people Jesus. And I knew that with my physical therapy that I could get into a closed country. So, when Carlene and I were dating, and she knew the desire that I have, and she also was a physical therapist. And so, we decided that that's what we believed that God wanted us to do, was to use our physical therapy to get into Muslim country. And after we graduated, back in those days, you had to get your school debts paid off. So, I had to pay . 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Right. People are still doing that today. 

Greg Seghers: 

Okay. All right. I knew I needed Bible training, and so I was still full-time working. We had a child, my wife was pregnant with our second child. And I went full-time to a Moody Bible Institute. And at that time it was called Advanced Studies Program, which has become their master's level program. And I did those courses and my wife took some courses, and we went to the Missions Week. And we- 

Darrell Bock: 

Which is a big deal at Moody, right? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

I mean- 

Greg Seghers: 

The agencies they have lots. 

Darrell Bock: 

They're everywhere. They're all there. 

Greg Seghers: 

And so, Carlene and I went to the seminars that they had. And then we went up to and visited the agencies that were working with Muslim countries, Muslim people. And it was amazing what they told us. So, we went up to one table and they told us that, "No, that you guys are too old." And I was only 29 at the time, but we just couldn't believe that's what they said. 

Darrell Bock: 

File for Medicare. 

Greg Seghers: 

And so, then we went up to another table and they said, "You have too many children." Okay. And then we went up to a third table and they told us that we needed more education. And so, three strikes and you're out. And we left there like, "Okay, God, we thought this was the direction you want us to go." 

Darrell Bock: 

So, this was at the Mission Week. Wow. Okay. 

Greg Seghers: 

And just so you know that after that, as we became missionaries and we would talk to missionaries from those agencies, and they just can't believe that's what was told to us. And we said, we can't believe it either, but that was God's way of getting us to where you want us to be. And we had friends from Intervarsity Christian Fellowship at our campus that were home on furlough from South Africa. And we invited them to come over for dinner and we came over, they had a little child, and our little one played together. And they showed us, in those days, it was the old slideshow presentation. And afterwards they said- 

Darrell Bock: 

If you're under 20, have someone explain to you what that is. Anyway, go ahead. 

Greg Seghers: 

And so, then they just said to us, "It'd be nice to have a couple like you to with." And so, that night, Carlene and I began to talk about it. We began to pray and research it, and three and a half years later we were in South Africa. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. So, your intent had been to go minister in a closed Muslim country. 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you obviously got directed in a different direction. And as I say, the rest is history for you and your family? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah. What's interesting in my networking and getting to know people from different agencies, and that sort of thing, is that, I don't know how much the listeners will know, but the Islam is going further and further south sub-Saharan Africa. And they're pouring millions of dollars into establishing footholds into the southern sub-Saharan countries. Like in Malawi, I was there about 10 times in my early days of ministry. And pretty much their goal was to have a mosque in each village. And they've done it. And then in discussing as missionaries and with other agencies, one of the things that we've talked about is who's there that's going to be witnessing to their neighbors? And the Zionists are in those villages. And so, we just think for such a time as this, is God opening up the hearts of the amaZioni people to his word, so that they are becoming followers of Jesus, and they'll be able to witness to their Muslim neighbors? 

Darrell Bock: 

So, what is the tribal makeup of the amaZioni? I mean, are they considered to be their own tribe? Or is there a mix of tribal? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah, it crosses the barriers. There's no barriers in South Africa. It's all the different. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, this is a particularly, I can say what cross-tribal denominational movement basically? 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. And just so to help the listeners to understand about the Zionist movement, and one of the things that we've noticed about particularly the Western churches in South Africa is their understanding of the Zionist movement is that they believe that it's just one denomination. The ZCC, I don't know if you've heard of that, the Zion Christian Church, which has about a million members. And they go up to a place called Moriah every Easter. And that's a huge denomination. But there's actually 6,000 different Zion denominations in South Africa. And they each have their own bishop and they have their own name of their church in a different uniform and that sort of thing. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, now the natural question that comes to me in that kind of a context is do those tend to be formed by tribe? Is that part of what creates those differences? 

Greg Seghers: 

So, what's happened in the beginning, I have to go back a little bit in history. 

Darrell Bock: 

No problem. Yeah. 

Greg Seghers: 

That they immediately began to break away from each other. So, there was some early leaders, guys that Le Roux, Buchler Mahon were some of the early white people that were followers of the Zionist movement. And Konyana Luthuli Gubese were some of the African leaders in the beginning. And they immediately broke away from each other. 

And I believe that that's also part of the African culture is that let's say you were the bishop. And if I was a younger guy and after a certain amount of time, I would say, "Well, I want to have my own church." So, I would take my members and I would start my Zion denomination. I would change the name a little bit, maybe change the uniform a bit, and then I would have my church and I would become the bishop of that church. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. So, I've been waiting to ask this question. I haven't been sure how to ask it. And that is, so you said there were white leaders and there were African leaders as well. How much is the cultural reality now? I'm thinking particularly South Africa, although it's probably true across the continent to some degree. How much were the racial divides that existed in the continent at play in some of this? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah. So, what's particular about Zionist teaching from the beginning was that they were egalitarian and cosmopolitan. So, there was a reception of all the different races, and there was no status higher. And so, there was a unity there. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, it was counter- 

Greg Seghers: 

So, that was the beginning. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, it was counter-cultural to what was going on in South Africa, for example? 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Greg Seghers: 

At the beginning. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Greg Seghers: 

Now, what I have been amazed at in my 30 years of being over there is how forgiving the African people are, because we were received with open arms. And one of the things I think was significant in those early years of the other missionaries that started and Carlene and I when we went, is that we were instructed that we needed to learn their language, we needed to learn their culture. And so, one of the things that my wife and I did in the early days was we would take our family and go live with a Zulu pastor. And we would do what they were doing and learn their culture, learn their language, and live with them. 

And I remember in the early days that I would go for a whole weekend, and go out and participate with a family, and have the service, and that sort of thing. And one time I was in a hut, and it was in the early days when I didn't know the language so well. And a person would come in and they would say hello to me, and I'd greet him in Zulu. And then they would talk to the coworker that I had, Cuba. And they would talk for a while. And then he would get up and greet me, say goodbye. And then he'd go out and another person would come in. 

And after a while, I finally asked Cuba, I said, "What's going on?" And he just said, "No, they couldn't believe that a white man was going to sleep in a Black man's bed. And so, they wanted to come and see with their own eyes." And so, I think if you go there with an open heart, an open mind, and you're not trying to change them to become Western, and you become a learner and learn from them that they are so receptive to us then bringing the Bible teaching. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I mean, there's terrific hospitality that runs through the culture that I've seen, and just a graciousness really that runs through as well that you sense and pick up when you're there. And with everything that South Africa in particular has been through, we really do appreciate people who we know, both whites and Blacks, who we've gotten to know who are connected to the church, and the churches that we minister to. It's a fascinating place to be. So, what would you say you've learned as a result of the ministry that you've been a part of? Because I imagine just a little bit of a culture difference. 

Greg Seghers: 

Very much. Yeah, very much so. One of the significant things I think for me was that when I went there, that I went there because I love the amaZioni people. And so, I could have a meal with witch doctors and I could have meals with prophets who were receiving their messages. And there wasn't any emotional baggage that I had because I wanted to love them, build relationships with them, and share the truth. But allowing them to wrestle with the truth and allowing the word of God and the spirit of God to work within that person. And so, when I come back here to America, and now we're here totally in the country and the culture, I know that there's topics that are very heightened emotionally, and especially as Christians that we get upset about certain things. And so, one of our messages that my wife and I have tried to give and to talk with people. And last semester we taught a class at Moody Bible Institute, intercultural engagement, and we were teaching the students that they have different cultures all around them. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, yeah. 

Greg Seghers: 

In America. It's amazing. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, I tell people when you ask the question, so what's the culture like? I said, you've already fogged up the conversation. It's not culture singular, it's cultures, and they rub against each other. I compare them to plate tectonics. They rub against each other, you build up enough pressure, you get a reaction. And so, that is pluralism is that mix, that multiple mix that you have to deal with. And Africa is certainly that way. You've got multiple languages in any given country. 

Greg Seghers: 

That's right. 11 national languages. 

Darrell Bock: 

11. 

Greg Seghers: 

South Africa. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Greg Seghers: 

So, the thing is, how do we build bridges, take down walls, and build a trust relationship where you can go out and have coffee with somebody that's from a different political or different social agenda perspective. But have a conversation and share, and not try to talk them into believing what you do, but just share and listen to their story, and share your story. And then depart ways, but still be able to have a communication. So, that's what I... 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, when we do our cultural engagement stuff and we talk about difficult conversations, we talk about learning to become a good listener and ask questions, and find out where the person is coming from and why. I call it getting a spiritual GPS reading on someone. And you're just listening for what drives them and what they're concerned about, where they're coming from. Because the better you understand the person, you're actually in a better place to interact with them. 

Greg Seghers: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so, that becomes a very key way of thinking about how to share your faith in this context. And I say, if you show an interest in someone else, and by asking them questions, wanting to hear their story, et cetera, and putting what I call your doctoral meter on mute, you're not going to turn it off. It's there. And your first response isn't to rebut what you hear. Your first response is to actually draw closer to the person and get to know them better, then you put yourself in a position when it's your turn, you've set an environment for that a conversation, which allows you to share as they've shared. And it just changes the dynamic of what's going on between people when you operate that way. 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah. And giving the space for God to do his work. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. And it's his timing, and it is sense that we do it. So, you've come back from South Africa and you're now here. And it says you're serving as ZEMA's home office director. So, what does that mean? I mean, home office isn't a big place, I don't think. So, what does that actually mean? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yeah, so what happened in our ministry is that in 2018, I took over as field office director. And then in 2019, our home office director resigned. And so, my wife and I raised our hand. And so, we were carrying both responsibilities while we were there in South Africa. So, then in 2021, my wife's parents needed some assistance. And so, Carlene came back here. And then in January of 2023, we finally came over where we're full-time now here. So, we got our feet wet a little bit in those early days. So, now our concentration is networking and going out to churches, coming to Bible schools, and having the opportunity to tell the story of what God's doing. Because I appreciate what you're doing in The Table podcast is that you're helping believers to see of what God's doing worldwide. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Greg Seghers: 

And it's huge. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Greg Seghers: 

So huge. 

Darrell Bock: 

Most stories people don't even know or aware of, but he is quite active and it's in certain parts of the world. It's exciting to see even in the midst of some cases of real challenge. And so, I take it you're overseeing and encouraging people who are in the ministry, the families, et cetera. Is that basically the role? 

Greg Seghers: 

That's correct. And so, I am doing a lot of administration answering emails, helping to solve some issues, or pointing people to the right people that can solve their issues that they're having. And being in communication with the field office director on a weekly basis, and the board chairman. And- 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you were overseas for what, 20... 

Greg Seghers: 

29. 

Darrell Bock: 

29 years. So, what was it like to come back to the States? There was culture shock when you came back? 

Greg Seghers: 

Yes, very much so. Very much so. So, when I first realized that we were going to be making the transition, it was hard because that became home for Carlene and I. And that was where we were friends. And there's a pace of life that you- 

Darrell Bock: 

I understand. 

Greg Seghers: 

... that you have and we really enjoyed. We really loved what we did. And we loved the people we were with, and we loved the amaZioni. And we love the culture that- 

Darrell Bock: 

There's a reason why you spent seven or eight hours in the church service because of the community values that represents. 

Greg Seghers: 

That's right. But making this transition, God has given us peace about that this is what he's asking us to do at this time. And that we are grabbing hold of what God's given us. And so, opportunities like this get us really excited. And just a really short story. We were trying to make a little bit more contact with Dallas, the Theological Seminary. And so, we were trying to be part of the WEC, I think, where we had the mission agencies, and it just wasn't happening. Didn't have the right emails and that sort of thing. So, we decided to come a little bit early today. 

And I don't know which building it was, but we were looking at the directory, and a gentleman came up and asked us do we need help? And so, we told him who we were, and it was Dr. Ortiz. And so, we ended up having a great conversation, and he introduced us to Shannon. And so, we had a thirty-minute discussion with her. And so, I see God opening doors for us to just have opportunities to tell the story of what he's doing amongst the amaZioni people. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, it's a fascinating part of the world, South Africa and the southern part of Africa. It's becoming a challenging part of the world as well, with all the issues that exist. As you've already talked about, the influx of Islam coming South is a challenge. And some parts of the African continent have had a very tumultuous history over the last several decades, and coping with that. It is a fascinating, I could say, part of the world. And to hear about ministry that's connecting with people who are from Africa and the reception that you've managed to get is encouraging to hear. 

Greg Seghers: 

One of the things that I don't know if I explained also is that out of our 80 teachers, 60 of them are African nationals. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Greg Seghers: 

God is really doing a movement where he's raising up people from within that are ministering to their own people. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you mean they're running the schools and that kind of- 

Greg Seghers: 

They're running the schools. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. Well, Greg, I want to thank you for coming in and talking with us, and sharing a little bit about a small piece, important piece of what's going on in Southern Africa, not just South Africa, and the opportunity that represents and the history that is behind it. And the way in which you all have shown what I would call relational sensitivity in thinking about ministry. That's a value that we have at the center. And so, it's a real pleasure to hear your story. 

Greg Seghers: 

Well, thanks for the opportunity. It's great to be here. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we're glad that you were able to join us on The Table. If you want to see more episodes of The Table, you go to voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast. And as you heard, we've done other podcasts about South Africa that discuss different aspects of the makeup of the country and what has gone on there. The history, which most people are aware of, has been at different points tumultuous. And so, it's interesting to hear how the church has coped with all the changes that have come really in the last several decades there in South Africa. So, we thank you for joining us. We hope you'll join us again soon. And welcome to The Table. We discuss issues of God and culture, and where we look at the relevance of theology to everyday life.