Spurgeon's Piety & Engagement Through the Word

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at The Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. 

And we thank you that you are a part of our discussions, where we seek to show the relationship between God and culture and the relevance of that connection to everyday life. And we have a guest today, Keeney Dickinson, who's here to talk about the, how can I say this? The ministry and particularly the prayer ministry of Spurgeon, who didn't even live in the United States. Right? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Right. 

Darrell Bock: 

But a ministry that has had a long reflective time of engagement. Let me introduce him. He has served as senior pastor First Baptist Church in Crockett, Texas since 2003. He serves as a prayer ministry specialist for the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention since 2021, DMin in biblical spirituality from South Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, founder and prayer director, and I may ruin the pronunciation of this, but is it Prayeridigm? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes, it is. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. And author of seven books and his most recent book, Spurgeon: the Prayer-Powered Pulpit of the Prince of Preachers. And if you don't believe in alliteration, you don't get that title. And he's married to his best friend and prayer partner, D'Ann. So Keeney, thank you for joining us and we're glad that you could be a part of The Table. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, I'm delighted to be here, and appreciate the opportunity to visit with you. 

Darrell Bock: 

So my first question is standard for anyone who's done The Table for the first time, and that is, how did a nice guy like you get into a gig like this? What in the world drew your attention to this topic and how did you come... I guess I'm asking you, how did you come into ministry to begin with and then why Spurgeon secondly? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. As a teenager I began to sense a call from God to be in the ministry, which petrified me. I was a very strong introvert and couldn't imagine getting up and speaking. I dropped one class in high school, and that was creative writing because I didn't want write something and get up and present it and get critiqued. And now, I do that every week. But as a teenager, I began to pursue that call, and a lady at a small Bible bookstore put in my hands the Lectures to My Students by Charles Haddon Spurgeon. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that triggered your interest. Now, how did you end up in the ministry? Biblical spirituality, which it's interesting. How did you end up in that area and particularly focused on prayer? What drew you in that direction? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, it came out of crisis. I was at Glorieta, New Mexico at a national conference, came under a deep conviction of the Lord that I was more acquainted with the minds of men than the heart of God. And I repented of that, went on a book fast, which was huge for me. It ended up being about three years, where I just spent time in prayer, filling my mind with scripture. And I began to see the longer I was in ministry, the desperate need I had for communion and fellowship with the Lord in every aspect of life and ministry. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well obviously, an important calling. And I take it you were in pastorates before you were in Crockett, is that correct? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. We were in a community, Eunice, New Mexico for 13 and a half years before we came to Crockett, and been here 21 years, and two other places prior to that. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, a lot of pastoral experience is what that reflects. And a prayer ministry specialist for the Southern Baptists of Texas, I'm assuming, was that a new position or was that a position that had previously existed? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

It had been kind of a combination position in the past, and they moved it to where I could pastor and do this as well. And so that's when I came on board. So I minister through that out of the overflow of my pastoring, with some Zoom coaching with pastors, prayer training in local churches, and a variety of other ways to strengthen the prayer ministry within our churches. 

Darrell Bock: 

So obviously, our theme is not just on Spurgeon, but obviously also related to prayer. What do you tell people who want to come to the workshops that you do, in terms of why should they do it? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, one aspect of it is that we try to not simplify prayer, but simplify our view of prayer, get back to the basic of a relationship with God. And as far as pastors answering the question why before the try. Why do you want your people to pray? Is it a means to an end, or is there significance just in the act of prayer and getting them in the presence of God together, and keeping that in perspective? I think over the time, we've been guilty of putting the try before the why and in a lot of areas of ministry. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I take it then the workshop isn't so much about just the personal prayer life of the pastor, but how he can foster an environment of prayer within the congregation? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes, yes. We do have a workshop that we do on Christ's life of prayer, tracing his walk with the father and his earthly life and ministry, according to the gospel according to Luke. And then we build everything out of that into the Acts of the Apostles and look at how they prayed. And that that prayer movement in Acts really began with Jesus and his personal walk with the Father, modeling that and teaching the apostles to follow his example. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, anyone who's pushing people to take a look at Luke–Acts is on my favorite list, so that's great to hear. So let me shift gears on Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Let's assume that someone in the audience, they may know the name, but that may be all they know about this figure. Tell us about why he's important in ministry and why you focused on him. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, he was born in 1834, lived in England. He pastored most of his time in London. The church was known as the New Park Street Church, and then a larger building was built and it was named the Metropolitan Tabernacle. He touched the world from that pulpit, and had a profound impact on that city through what was called The Penny Pulpit. His sermons went around the globe every week. That was a new development with The Penny Papers. It was accessible to the public and his sermons would be printed and distributed. 

And he had a profound ministry from the pulpit, but also in what I would call the tributaries of the Tabernacle that went out into the social aspects of London, to the extent that when he died, his funeral was composed of multiple services for different groups, but his funeral procession, as it went through the City of London, shops were closed, drapes were over the windows, the whole area shut down to honor him. It'd be similar to a presidential procession or when Billy Graham died. So he had a profound impact then and now on our lives through his writings, which is the largest group of writings by an English author. When you look at his Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, it contains more words than the Encyclopedia Britannica. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh my goodness. Well, that's interesting to know. You know, I had a conversation, this has been within the last year, with a student who is studying Spurgeon's public engagement, what we would call cultural engagement approach to the ministry. And what's interesting about it, is you mentioned his ministry in public space, which I think most people don't know very much about. 

But actually, he represents someone who was committed to the Bible on the one hand, but saw Christianity very much as a holistic faith in reaching out into all kinds of areas. I know that you focused on the prayer-powered pulpit of Spurgeon, but how much can you tell us about that aspect of his mission? Because I think it would be viewed as exceptional today and not the norm for a pastor to operate that way. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. He had between 60 and 70 ministries that were tributaries out of that congregation. Each of them had an annual banquet at which he spoke. So you take that and do the math, more than one a week on average, one point something. But him preparing and leading out on that, giving direction to that. It involved ragged schools for the poor, almshouses for the widows, a little bit of public education to help people improve themselves. And then surely, theological education, and then an orphanage known as the Stockwell Orphanage. 

During his years of ministry, he pastored in the midst of cholera epidemics that left children parentless, and he was a contemporary of George Mueller, and also went into the ministry there of the orphanage, had a ministry to the police officers. The list goes on and on. 

Darrell Bock: 

So George Mueller, he'd be in touch with German pietism as a result. Right? And that strand of, how can I say, spirituality that comes out of that movement? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. And he was mostly shaped spiritually by the influence of the Reformation, the Puritans, and people such as George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards and Andrew Fuller. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So the dates of his ministry, I'm asking you questions, I don't even know if may or may not know the answer, but he ministered, you said when he was born, but what were the dates of his ministry? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

He began ministering in the early 1850s and pastored until 1892. So— 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So the bulk of his— 

Keeney Dickenson: 

—in the neighborhood of forty years. 

Darrell Bock: 

The bulk of his ministry would have predated the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy, which was beginning to emerge towards the end of his ministry. Would that be a fair description? And there's a reason why I'm raising this. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. He was very, very concerned with what was termed The Downgrade Controversy. And it was the church embracing the culture rather than impacting the culture. And so culturally, he was dealing with that. He made the statement, "The reason the church has so little influence on the world is because the world has so much influence on the church." 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

And so that would really apply in our day, I think. And then theologically, we tend to polarize. So as the downgrade went one direction, others were going another direction, and he maintained that balance of biblical truth and compassionate ministry, and kept those in balance, where people tend to go one way or the other, it seems, toward the social aspects or the biblical aspects of ministry. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, this is great. This is one reason I really love Spurgeon is because I feel like he tried to maintain a balance and be engaged across the board in an era in which people were beginning to segregate between what involved church ministry and what was seen as an aside, and oftentimes seen as aside and a space only for liberals. 

And in the midst of that division, really creating a hole in how the church can witness to what God is about in offering the gospel. I think conservatives got off the track missionally, and it's for somewhat understandable reasons, in the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy, liberals came along and they said, "Well, we like the ethics of Christianity, but we don't believe the theological story underneath it." And so they began to question the Bible and pull those apart. 

And I say the conservatives reacted to that by going, "Well, we like that division, but we're going to flip it. We really like what the Bible has to say. And anything that's out here in public space is a reflection of a liberal political ideology that we don't want to have anything to do with." 

And so to some degree, they either withdrew or said, "We're not going to care about those kinds of issues as we used to, perhaps." And Spurgeon didn't buy that division. He actually saw that the testimony of what the gospel was about showed itself outside the church in the way the church served the community and tried to minister to it. Is that a fair summary of what's going on here? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes, it is. Yes. He spoke often–in preparation for today, I was looking at just the way he referred to London in his sermons. He would talk about it as a city of debauchery, evil, filth, ungodliness. But in that context, it wasn't in just criticizing the city, it was challenging his people to be salt and light in that culture, and that they needed to get involved in making a difference through the gospel of Christ. 

And he also had a strong church planting movement, where rather than just building one huge congregation, which his perhaps was the largest in the world, but his desire was to plant churches and missions that would minister to different levels of people, always centered on the gospel. And so his desire was to set his people in places where they could do strong ministry in the social context by spiritual means and deliver the gospel. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so, this ministry of service would've pointed to the fact that God cares about people, he cares about people whether they're inside the church or outside the church. And this ministry shows, the way I like to say it is when we say, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life and we want to dive into the story of the gospel," well, how am I going to show people that God loves them if they're not circulating in the church? 

Well, the way I do it is by the way I minister to them outside the church. And Spurgeon was creating a variety of means to do that. So that his engagement was a reflection of his missional commitments to the gospel and a reflection of the fact that God cares for the people he sent his son to die for. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. And Spurgeon was shaped greatly by the example of his grandfather who was in a smaller congregation, perhaps more central in that community, but had opportunity to do ministry outside the walls of the church. And I think that kept him grounded, focusing on pastors of all sizes of churches, providing resources for them, but also having that social consciousness with those biblical convictions. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I'm going to try and create a link here. I actually don't know if this exists. I'm asking a question I don't know the answer to, and that is, did Spurgeon have much contact with major American preachers? And I have D.L. Moody in mind in particular when I asked this question. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes, he did have a relationship with D.L. Moody. He interacted with him when he came to London. Moody, it is said, talked to him critically about him smoking cigars, and Spurgeon patted his stomach and said something about obesity. And so they had kind of a humorous interaction at times. 

They differed theologically, but they agreed on the gospel, that people needed Christ. And that was something that's kind of unique about Spurgeon as well. Although he was so focused on biblical conservative theology, he loved anyone who would proclaim the gospel and draw people to Christ. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. The reason I mentioned D.L. Moody is that D.L. Moody was famous for a kind of ministry that he had in public space in Chicago, in association with the Moody Bible Institute and Moody Church. And so, there's a parallel there in how they saw the missional activity of the church in relationship to the gospel in public space. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. Yes. And he had other interactions with people or pastors from the United States that was not real favorable because he was very anti-racism. In the 1860s, that did not bode well with preachers in some regions of our nation. And one of the invitations he got to come to the United States was not to preach but to be hung. Because in a sermon I read recently, he talked about although slavery had been abolished in the realm of England, it had transported slaves to the United States and that whole mindset. And so when the judgment of God came as a sword to the US as we know it, they were hit with the rod for their culpability in that sinfulness. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Some of the roots of the abolition movement came through what was going on in Britain. And Wilberforce and some of those people, they were predating the emphasis that ended up coming into our country and creating the conversation, obviously, that led into the Civil War. Go ahead. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

And so Spurgeon entered into that conversation and wielded quite an influence in the United States. I don't know how that contributed to everything, but that is another example of his influence being far-reaching. 

Darrell Bock: 

So he was campaigning on behalf of all people before God, is that correct? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. Yes. Even broke the racial barrier with his school by allowing former slaves to become students, and they were sent out as missionaries and pastors, and he was on the threshold of that as well. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. You know, Wheaton College in Illinois began in the same kind of way, opening their enrollment to Black students in Illinois. So, we've talked a little bit about the social engagement. Can you talk a little bit about how he explained and justified this kind of engagement? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

He saw it as a part of the gospel. He didn't see it as a sideline, a secondary thing, but a holistic approach, that if you're going to present the gospel and you're going to emphasize that they are people created in the image of God, and that God loves them and you are an extension of that love, then that involves meeting physical needs as well as spiritual needs, always with the goal of presenting Christ to them. And being a representative of Christ in whatever you did in the social arena. 

Darrell Bock: 

So this was part of seeing yourself, I'm going to use a biblical image here, of being an ambassador for Christ in the world, and the reconciliation that Christ brings, that 2 Corinthians 5 talks about? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. Yes. And so, he preached against moral evils in the culture, but he preached on behalf of the culture that they had a desperate need for Christ. And he would warn from the pulpit, "If you've come from the country, you are going to be surrounded by sin and you need to be a witness in that context, not become immersed in that." So he spoke on behalf of the culture a lot in his preaching, as well as speaking against the evils. He had great compassion. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, the other reaction, besides being assimilated to the culture, is you withdraw from the culture and don't engage with it. You kind of stay within your own, how I can say, the sacred space? I take it he would have things to say about that as well? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Right, --- entering into a ministry of Christlike concern. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So, the title of the book is Prayer-Powered Pulpit for the Prince of Preachers. So, we haven't talked about prayer yet, so we need to get there. Because assuming that the power and the enablement and the capability of being able to minister in this kind of, we've used the word balanced way or this kind of engaged way, also was very, very dependent on the importance of prayer. Why don't you talk about that a little bit? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, Spurgeon was under an extreme amount of stress throughout his ministry. His wife had health issues that were debilitating, to where she couldn't attend worship with him. He suffered himself from gout. He was given to seasons of depression. He was involved in controversies, one regarding baptism, The Downgrade Controversy, just one after another. All of the letter writing he did, interviewing of new members. 

And so, one thing he emphasized was the necessity of the prayers of intercession from his people on his behalf. And once stated, "If you ever cease to pray for me, let me know, because on that day my ministry will be over." And so he attributed everything back to the power of God, resting upon the word of God, and flowing through the prayers of himself and his people. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. Now, did he introduce some structure into that to make that happen, or did he just make the appeal to people to pray on my behalf? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

He would do that in his preaching. He devoted entire sermons to that topic, based on passages from the Apostle Paul, but he was completely committed to his Monday evening prayer meeting, and then they would have prayer meetings on Thursday. And he would tell his students, "Whatever else happens, maintain the prayer meeting." He believed that corporate prayer was a key to keeping everything going. And he would point to that room where the Monday night prayer meeting occurred down beneath the worship center of the Metropolitan Tabernacle as a place where the power flowed into the life and ministry of the church. 

Darrell Bock: 

And do we know anything about the structure of those meetings and how they actually were conducted? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

He would spend some time speaking extemporaneously, and he would share a scripture, comment on that, and guide into prayer. They would pray strategic prayers that had a cultural focus, praying for the ministries, the extensions of the Tabernacle. They would pray for the lost and have times where people could share a request. But it was very strategic and focused, and it was very integral to their week of rhythm as a church, that he would challenge them, "If you can't be at oth services, come to the prayer meeting." 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. And he's obviously got a big church, you said they were meeting in a room underneath the worship center. How well-attended were these prayer meetings? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, I don't know if it was the entire time, but for a long season you had to have a ticket to get in. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

And it was free to attend, but to try to be fair to people, they had to come and actually have a ticket to attend the prayer meeting. Can you imagine that in our day? 

Darrell Bock: 

Wow. No, I can't imagine that. And do we know how long they met for? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

It just varied on the intensity and the involvement there. I don't believe I've ever read a set time that they tried to maintain. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

But they could have. I may not be aware of it. 

Darrell Bock: 

And how large a group would this have been? You said they had to have tickets, but if they're in a room, I take it they did tickets because the size of the room was limited and they couldn't accommodate everyone who'd want to come? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. And then at other times, I think they moved it to larger spaces, but it would be hundreds and hundreds of people. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. I think one of the challenges of a big prayer meeting is perhaps losing a sense of intimacy that you're praying together. Did they worry about the size of the group and keeping it personal or did they say "No, this is about corporate prayer. So the bigger the corporate group, the happier we are"? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. One thing about the prayer meetings is they didn't really ever talk about a specific pattern that they followed. So we don't know if they divided people up into groups or things that we might do in that setting, but it was primarily led from the person in front guiding in the prayer focuses and people leading prayer. 

Darrell Bock: 

Another question. I have no idea, and I know I don't know the answer to it, so did Spurgeon have a staff that helped him with the organization and logistics of the church? Because if he's got a big church, that's quite an organization to try and manage. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. He had a personal assistant himself that would help him with some research by going to the London Library and getting information, especially when he did his social lectures in the evenings. He lectured on gorillas one time, tying it in to the beginnings of the focus on evolution and things like that. So he had a personal assistant. He had elders and a large number of deacons. And then the Sunday school teachers were a force of outreach. 

But yes, it was very, very structured, to where he would have assistants. But as far as interviewing new members, he did that, interviewing prospective students for the preacher's college or the pastor's college. He did that because he had strong convictions about that. But they practiced church discipline, but he believed that biblical preaching was the best form of church discipline, by setting biblical parameters in which people were to live and to function. 

Darrell Bock: 

Influence. You've talked about the way in which he was perceived in London. Do you have any particular stories about the influence that he did exercise? I think you compared his funeral to Billy Graham's. Talk about that a little bit. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, one of his strongest influences was through the students of his college that became his contemporaries and his comrades in ministry. And one of them was Archibald Brown, who was a very strong preacher and another part of that metropolis. 

And so, he extended his influence through them. Through the variety of ministries, people saw the love and compassion that he and his church had for others. And he was a close friend of some of the people in what we would call politics, but he was not politically- 

Darrell Bock: 

Aligned. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Aligned with some of them, but appreciated some of their stances. I read something where he would've leaned toward the liberal aspect of politics, as opposed to the strong conservative extremists in that nation. You'd have to understand the entire political structure, but it was the concern for humans as individuals and that sort of thing. And so that basically was the main way that he did that. 

Darrell Bock: 

So , most preaching in the 19th century that I'm familiar with does have this interesting mix of theology and preaching the gospel, but also being engaged with the character of the society around which people are living and which is influencing so much of what is going on. 

And you've hinted at this throughout, that he tended to talk about the culture in particular ways, and challenging the culture and what's going on in the culture, and how seriously flawed he saw culture as being. And yet at the same time, he tried to balance that with a hope of what people could be. Talk about that balance a little bit. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. He believed no one was beyond the reach of God's grace. And he did make a statement, I have it here on my phone, that I think shares his heart in this area. He was preaching and he said this, "All my brethren, we need to know more of the evil of men to make us more earnest in seeking their salvation. For if there be anything in which the church is lacking more than in any other matter, it is in the matter of earnestness." 

And so he believed that being isolated from the ills of the culture really created a sinful complacency and apathy toward the culture. And he seemed to feel part of his responsibility was to mentally invite them into those dark places of the culture to talk about the slums, he would refer to that, he would refer to gambling, he would refer to children being abused and neglected. 

But he tried to encourage a social consciousness rather than just focusing on the elite of the community, helping them to be aware. And that was a big part of what he said about London and cities in general. And he was criticized for preaching in the language of the people, the common language, because he preached to where anybody socially or sinfully could come into that room and understand the preaching of the gospel. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so I take it that what he was pushing against here was against the kind of withdrawal that stays out of that space. And actually, he was trying to energize and catalyze people to make the effort to engage with and draw near to, for the sake of the gospel, people who are outside the church? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. And so the image that many people have today of the church is that we stand and preach at them. And he challenges people to, "Get your hands dirty. Don't get involved in the sin, but get out there and let them know that redemption is available." 

And he really encouraged his deacons and leaders to be focused on reaching out to the community, always with the hopes that they would come to Christ, but never manipulating them in a way to where they thought they had to put on some false profession to get the help they needed. 

Darrell Bock: 

He thoroughly intrigues me as a fascinating figure because of the way in which he balances these challenges of mission and discipleship, and teaching of doctrine, and preaching the word of God on the one hand, and yet encouraging people to be engaged in The Great Commission on the other, and really be dedicated to carrying out the commission that God has given the church. What else about Spurgeon that I haven't mentioned? We've talked about prayer and we've talked about his engagement. What else about Spurgeon fascinates you? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, he had no formal theological education. He had some education, but really, he was self-educated. I think it's fascinating that so many of us have done doctoral work, as myself and the student you mentioned, about a man who some have referred to as Dr. Spurgeon, but he would laugh at that title because he was pretty much self-taught through the Puritans and the reading that he had. So he had a vast library. 

And one of the things that I find most fascinating about him is how he maintained his focus on Christ. And he said at one point, "A Christless sermon is a worthless sermon." And the argument of some would be, well, not every text is about Christ, but when you think about his perspective, if it wasn't for Christ, we wouldn't be preaching that text. The overall context of the Bible has a Christo-centric, tri-man God-focus. And so, I did a word search in accordance through the sermons of Spurgeon of the Metropolitan Tabernacle. 3,563 sermons are in those volumes. The name Jesus appears just under 67,000 times. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh my goodness. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

And the title of Christ appears over 100,000 times. And so when he preached, it was always with a view that Christ was the only hope, the only help. And so in a day when others, even in that day, were preaching self-help sermons that had no mention of Christ, he thought you were failing to offer the ultimate help. And that was the person of Christ and his saving power through the gospel. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, I think I heard you mention how many sermons this entailed. Am I right about that? Did you give a number of sermons? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

3563. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. And 100,000 mentions of Christ. And what was the other figure for Jesus? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

67,000 mentions of Jesus. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So, I'm just trying to do the quick math. That's multiple mentions of page of text, let's say it that way. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

So Jesus was the reason, not just the reason for the season, he was the reason for the preaching? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Exactly. And if it didn't have Christ at the heart of it, it really wasn't valued by the Metropolitan Tabernacle. They kept Christ in every aspect of what they did. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Now, this may sound like an odd question, but I think it'll make sense, I'm to ask it, and that is, what was the legacy of the Tabernacle Church after Spurgeon left the pulpit? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

It struggled, as many churches do after a lengthy pastorate. There was some contention during that interim time. A.T. Pierson, who was not a Baptist as Spurgeon was, was someone that he had valued and had in the pulpit. He actually came in and preached there after the death of Spurgeon. There were some that wanted Thomas Spurgeon to be the pastor, Charles Spurgeon's son. Others wanted someone else. Very typical of many church situations. 

But over time, the influence of the congregation was not as strong because it did not have the strength of the pulpit and the aura of Spurgeon behind what the church was doing. But I have visited London twice, been to the Tabernacle, and there are still people preaching on the streets in front of it, engaging people in conversations. I don't know what extent of all those ministries continue, but there seems to still be a heartbeat of compassion for the lost through that congregation. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. That's a tale of, I guess, a little bit of a warning that when a church is built so much around a central figure, the loss of that central figure is a challenge for the community afterwards. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. Yes. And so, I believe that was reflected in his death. When his body arrived from France where he died, it was torrential rain, and the streets were lined with people as they brought his body into the Tabernacle. And then the multiple services, it was like he was bigger than life. And then as you know, when someone like that dies, they become even bigger than we could ever imagine them being. 

And so I think it's important to realize that Spurgeon was a very common man. He had a sense of humor that offended people at times, not because it was... They just thought it was inappropriate in the pulpit. And he would laugh and say, "Well, if you think what I said was bad, you should have heard what I thought about saying." He didn't seem to take himself seriously as he did Christ. 

But because he was so unique, started when he was young, and his youth was a drawing card at first to his popularity. And then as that drew people there, they were captivated by his preaching and the power of it. And they spent long seasons in what we would call a local church revival setting because of the power of God. 

And I think one of our downfalls is that we've tried to emulate some of what he did, rather than taking a hard look at who he was, and his walk with God and the way he helped others walk with God, and the way he mentored other pastors more so spiritually than Ministerially. He really wanted them to develop. And they would have a yearly conference where they would have powerful preaching. They would engage them in spiritual focuses, to have a renewal of their commitment to Christ in that setting as well. 

Darrell Bock: 

So what I'm hearing you say is, is that it wasn't following certain forms that made him effective. It was who he was and the way in which he kept the focus on Christ and on the scriptures? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. And another unique thing about him is he didn't spend long times in prayer, long seasons in prayer. When we think about people, I'm currently reading a new biography of Hudson Taylor, and you think about the hours that these other men spent in prayer in the early morning. Well, Spurgeon said that that was not his personality, so to speak. He was comfortable in his personality. And so he made the statement, "I never pray more than five minutes, but I never go five minutes without praying." 

And so he lived in an open-ended conversation with the Lord, constantly preparing his heart in walking with God to receive a message from him to deliver. And he would preach as many as 10 times a week, and I just can't even fathom the load that would be. And he bore up under that only by the strength of the Lord. But he would find, he said, in his ministry, that times of depression would come upon him right before there was a spiritual breakthrough or right after the breakthrough, the letdown. 

I think that's a good warning sign for us who serve him, that when we're struggling, hang on, lean in, stay faithful to prayer and the word because God is not through yet. And then when he does move, don't turn and bask that you somehow accomplished that, but that God has done that. 

And so, one of his verses that he referred to often was John 15:5, "I'm the vine, you're the branches, Jesus said. He who abides in me will bear much fruit, for without me you can do nothing." And I think we fail when we stop believing without him we can do nothing. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. Well, this has been a fascinating journey through the life of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. If someone were to say, "Oh, I'd like to learn more about Spurgeon," is there a resource that you would recommend them to read to get a handle on his biography in his life? 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Well, there is a good biography that centers on his theological life by Tom Nettles. There are multiple biographies you could pick up and read about him. I would say those that were written right after he died, they have some good insight into details of things, but right after he died, some of those authors were accused of hagiography. 

But I think Nettles, Louis Drummond has a pretty significant resource there that he's written about Spurgeon, and then his autobiography would be the best place to go. It's a two-volume set, and it was composed by his wife and his friends after he died, some of the things that he had written, some of his letters. And it really gives good insight. So I think, as in all research, starting with a primary source of his autobiography would be very helpful. And then branch out to those other, not commentaries, but biographies. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, Keeney, thank you very much for joining us and walking us through the life of Spurgeon. I think that there are lots of lessons for the listener to hear the scope of his ministry, the depth of his compassion, his focus on Christ, his his commitment to ministry and testifying to the service of God by the way in which he ministered, particularly to those outside the church. 

The warning that a church that builds itself around a significant personality has a real challenge on the other end, once that person is no longer available to minister. And so, just a wonderful visit into the life and ministry of Spurgeon and a prayer-powered pulpit and what it can do. So, thank you for taking the time with us to be on The Table and sharing that with us. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Sure. And it's my honor to be here, and I appreciate the ministry of Dallas Theological Seminary. My oldest son is a grad from there. And just been a strong source of encouragement in my life, watching the chapels and reading so many of the faculty members through the years. So I am so honored to be a part of what we did today. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, like I say, again, I appreciate the time you took with us and introducing us to certainly one of the most important figures of the 19th century in the history of the church. And someone whose legacy we still benefit from as often what he talked about and preached, and some of the things that he said are often quoted from the pulpit even today. 

Keeney Dickenson: 

Yes. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. And I want to thank you, the listener, for being a part of The Table. If you like our show, if you would leave a rating or a review so that other people can hear about us, we'd really appreciate that. 

We thank you for being a part of The Table, and we hope you'll join us again soon when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. And we wish you all God's blessing.