What is Spiritual Direction?

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander, I'm the Web Content Specialist here at The Hendricks Center. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'm Bill Hendricks, the Executive Director for Christian Leadership at the Hendrick Center. I also want to welcome you to The Table Podcast. In Psalm 13:1, David begins by crying out, "How long, Lord, will you continue to ignore me? How long will you pay no attention to me?" Later, in Psalm 83:1, Asaph says a similar thing. "O God, do not be silent. Do not ignore us. Do not be inactive, O God." 

When's the last time you prayed a prayer like that? When's the last time you said, "Where is God and why is God not speaking to me?" When's the last time you felt that I don't feel God's presence, I just feel numb or blank inside? Why do my prayers seem so pointless and ineffective? Or maybe you've had a moment of doubt where you think there must be some sin in my life that's standing between me and God. Could be as recently as this morning or even this afternoon, today. If you've ever had those thoughts and feelings, I might suggest that what you need is not more introspection, but a person, a person we describe as a spiritual director. 

With that, I want to introduce you to two such persons today. First of all, my long-time friend, Dr. Gail Seidel. Gail has served as the women's director of spiritual formation in the Department of Spiritual Formation here at the seminary, and she's also an adjunct professor in the DMin studies and the spiritual formation track. She's also been co-director of Christian Women in Partnership Russia, which is a leadership training program. She is married to Dr. Andy Seidel, who was my predecessor at the Leadership Center as the executive director for Christian leadership. Gail, it's so, so wonderful to have you on. I can't believe we haven't had you on before. 

 Gail Seidel: 

Thank you, Bill. It's good to be here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

A newer friend that I want to introduce you to is Casey Tygrett. Casey is the director of spiritual direction at a wonderful, wonderful organization in Colorado called Soul Care. Soul Care is an organization that provides spiritual direction to church, parachurch, and non-profit leaders so that they can lead from a place of soul health and soul flourishing. 

Soul Care, which was founded by a good friend of mine, Mindy Caliguire, who has actually been with us here at DTS, they actually come alongside us in the lead program that we do at the Center, which is a five-day intensive leadership development process that we offer. 

Casey is the author of several books, the latest of which I believe is going to be out soon called, The Gift of Restlessness: A Spirituality for Unsettled Seasons. That's actually a revision of a book that Casey wrote that won a 2020 Christianity Today Award of Merit in spiritual formation. Casey is host of the podcast, Restlessness is a Gift, interesting name. He's been married for 23 or more years to Holly. Lives on the south suburban side of Chicago. Casey, welcome to The Table Podcast. 

Casey Tygrett: 

Good to be with you. Grateful for the time to be with Gail, to be with the other Kasey. The two Caseys, I love it. 

 Gail Seidel: 

K and C. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I wanted to go through these credentials that Gail and Casey bring because I want you to realize we've got a team with us today. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's right. 

Bill Hendricks: 

We're glad that you've joined us. We're hoping in this podcast to kind of demystify this thing called spiritual direction, which is a name that's being more and more used in churches, and we want to bring some clarity to this whole rising phenomenon. Before we get into the conceptual, I want to start with the personal. Gail, tell Kasey and me and our listener, how did you begin to get into this line of work and a little bit about some of your background? 

 Gail Seidel: 

Thank you, Bill. I became familiar with spiritual direction when I was studying for my doctorate in ministry at Gordon-Conwell. We practiced it there with the students, and I was so impacted by the fact that it was uncovering, I guess pieces or parts of my soul that I had not paid attention to before. 

The questions that were asked, the community that we were in and the openness that we shared made such a difference. I thought I want to pursue this further, so I chose to go through the SILA program, which is a two-year training program for spiritual direction. At the end, you become a spiritual director. My soul has benefitted, but it's also given me a tool that's not competing with any other ministry that I can use to encourage women as they're walking with Christ. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wonderful. Casey, how about you? 

Casey Tygrett: 

I came to spiritual direction as someone seeking a director. I was in a ministry context in a fairly large church here in the south suburbs of Chicago. I hit that four and a half, five-year mark, and went to a friend of mine named, Mindy Caliguire, who you've already mentioned, and talked about some of the struggles I had. 

They were struggles about vocational discernment, like should I keep doing what I'm doing? Is this the thing that God has given me to give this next chapter of my life to? I was turning 40, beginning to have some of those thoughts, and she recommended a particular spiritual director, and I went to meet with him and it was amazing. I had about a 40-minute drive to his house and back and the entire way back, I was just overcome with what it was like to have someone here and actually feed back to me things that I could understand. 

These were markings of the presence of God. As I sat with that and as I drove home, I thought as a pastor, I do this with people all the time, I just didn't know what to call it. Now I know that I'm not any good at it. I don't have the skills I need. It was from there that I actually pursued a training program through Christos Center for Spiritual Formation. I did that program and finished in 2015, and then have since been seeing directees, whether from my own church or individual people who know me or even through Soul Care. 

Kasey Olander: 

I love that humility, the self-discovery and the wait a minute, maybe I could get some training in this and be a little bit more effective. That's awesome. Thanks for that, Casey. 

I feel like I hear each of you highlighting just the encouragement that it was to your souls, that somebody was helping you to attend to something in a really unique and maybe even formative way. I guess I'll start with you, Casey. Can you give us a definition of what is spiritual direction? I'll confess that I walk around like yes, I know what spiritual direction is, but then if somebody asks me to define it, I hesitate. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Your mind goes blank. 

Kasey Olander: 

It does. Please help me out, Casey. 

Casey Tygrett: 

You would not be alone. I think if you put 10 spiritual directors in a room and ask for a definition, you'd get 20 definitions. The one that I typically talk about is what we create in spiritual direction is a non-anxious space. We want to make sure that people know that there's no program, that's no real methodology because people will ask me what's the difference between spiritual direction and counseling or mentoring or other things. What I want to tell them is our methodology is presence. We're there to be there with you. It's a non-anxious presence, a space where we pay attention to what God is up to in your everyday life. 

On the one hand, that gives us a big canvas to work with. On the other hand, I want to end it by saying this is all grounded in the reality of your everyday life, in what you go through as a parent, as a leader, father, son, mother, daughter, orthodontist, podiatrist, whatever you end up doing, we want to make sure that you are noticing where God is active in your everyday life and then being able to attend to that so not just hey, there's the presence of God, but also okay, now what does that mean? 

Defining it as a non-anxious space where we listen to what God is up to in your everyday life is how I define it typically. I'd love to hear Gail's definition of this because I would imagine she has a pretty generous and beautiful definition as well. 

 Gail Seidel: 

Thank you. Should I offer that now? 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes. 

 Gail Seidel: 

One thing that impacted me just in reading some of the books about this is that there are always three convictions that underpin these meetings. The first one is that God is always doing something in the person's life that you are interacting with. It's exciting to me because it says that the Lord has started a process in our lives and He will finish it. I see, as a spiritual director, the opportunity to come alongside of what God is already doing. 

The second conviction is that responding to God is not sheer guesswork because we're building on the foundation of the Christian community through the centuries. It started in the early church and the concept of... I know this is a longer answer, it's supposed to be short. Cura Anumarum means care of the soul. There were individuals who were known specifically the curates for caring for people's souls. This isn't a fad, it's not something that we've thought up recently, but it's a time-honored practice in church history. 

The last thing, the last specific is that everyone's soul is different. It's unique. The wisdom that we are offering, it's not a textbook box you fit someone into, it's everything that Casey said. It's listening to the spirit, it's asking God where are you in this person's story? What do I have to offer now? What question should I ask? These three things are not original to me, they're from Eugene Peterson's book, Working the Angles, which is a really good book on all of this. 

Bill Hendricks: 

What I'm hearing in both of your answers, and I really like that word, a space. I think Gail, you talk about an offering of spiritual direction is an offering of hospitality, which is like inviting someone into your home. There's always three persons involved here, there's the person themselves who's come for spiritual direction, there's this spiritual director, but then there's this third person, God. 

What I'm hearing you articulate underscores something that I came across as I was preparing for this conversation, that the focus really is on the relationship between the person and God, even more than the person and the spiritual director. 

The spiritual director, yes, you certainly want to build and develop a healthy relationship and a meaningful relationship with the person, but that the spiritual director is really there to facilitate this relationship between the person and God. Obviously not trying to take the place of the Holy Spirit, but again, as a human guide or facilitator to, if I could use the phrase, help the person catch the winds of the Holy Spirit who is seeking to have that relationship with them. 

 Gail Seidel: 

I also think it's helpful to distinguish between spiritual direction and spiritual friendship because spiritual direction is formal with a trained director and it is guided listening and often, it's individual whereas spiritual friendship is informal and it's mutuality where you share back and forth, and it's often corporate. I think people get mixed up. They think I just want a friendship with you. For me, I have to distinguish when I'm meeting with someone, are you wanting direction or do you want just to be a friend? It's subtle. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's an important distinction and that helps clarify a little bit. Can you continue to tease that out? Because Casey, you made a distinction between spiritual direction and counseling, which is also formal, but then Gail, you distinguished it between spiritual direction and spiritual friendship. Can we, I guess further narrow this? What else is spiritual direction not? 

 Gail Seidel: 

It's not bible study, it's not things we've already mentioned, counseling, mentoring, and it's not developing a group of friends. My challenge as a director is to stick with what the person is asking for because I would love to become a friend and let's go do lunch. That's really not the traditional, I'll even use the word orthodox view of direction. You have to identify. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Casey, do you have anything to add to that? 

Casey Tygrett: 

Yeah, that's where it's an interesting thing because there are places where this spiritual direction is so distinct from other what I call helping professions. If you think about it in terms of a choir, in a choir, everybody has a different part to sing and spiritual direction has theirs, counseling has theirs, but there's also places of overlap. 

There are skills from counseling and therapy that really do come into play. Things like, and Gail, I'm sure you've had this happen where you have a directee, and you begin to see where this is headed and you so desperately want them to go there, but you know I can't take them there. The director is trusting that God has already put the wisdom in their life into them. What we're helping them do is uncover that and pay attention to God's presence and God's voice. 

We can't manufacture it. You cannot microwave spiritual direction and you can't push someone to go to... That's true not only with spiritual direction, but also of therapy as well. Counseling or therapy, you can't press somebody towards an insight or a realization. You remain present and if you're hearing it, I always tell the directee that I'm listening to stuff going on in me, I'm listening to the conversation between us, but we're also listening for wisdom and insight that's outside of us. Trying to pay attention to all of that, you cannot get in the weeds of pushing towards something. You have to let things develop over the course of time. 

 Gail Seidel: 

One of the most helpful things I learned from a group spiritual directors consortium or whatever, we met regularly to discuss what we're doing is being willing to wait. That is really hard because as you say, you have insight. You can say if you would just do X, y and Z, and yet that's not what God's called me to do if I'm acting as a spiritual director. Sometimes, in the group that we had, people were talking about how they waited several years for an individual and when the individual became aware on their own with the Lord, it made a powerful impact. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I think that word aware is very important in this conversation, Gail. Self-awareness is massively huge in spiritual growth, and we have to step back a little bit and think about why that might be because I think a lot of people think, I think I know myself pretty well, and they very well-may. 

There are certain things about self-awareness, however, that the person themself, I myself cannot see. The way I like to put it is I live inside my skin. It's a physical impossibility to see my own face. I could see every other face in the world, but the one face I'll never see is my own. I can look at a mirror or a video camera but even then, it's a reflection. I can't have that out-of-body experience to see myself. 

There are certain things about me that other people can see that I don't see. Maybe a different metaphor I could use is my dad had what's called color blindness and he literally could not distinguish between blue and green. Of course, he was working back in the days when men wore coats and ties in the line of work he was in. Boy, when it came to picking out ties, man, he had to get some help because otherwise he'd show up and really look like he didn't have the right tie on. 

There was the colors there, but he could not distinguish them and another person would've to come alongside and help. It sounds to me like what you're suggesting is that if we're going to be fully aware, and not only aware of what I call the bad truth about who we are, but also aware about the good truth about who we are, we often need somebody from the outside to come along and point things out that once we see them, we realize wow, that's a truth that I missed, but it's hidden in plain sight. Is that a fair size-up of what I'm hearing? You get at it with this whole thing of awareness? 

 Gail Seidel: 

Yes. I didn't know if you were asking me or Casey. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Either one. 

 Gail Seidel: 

Right. I think for me, it's strategic and critical dependence on the Holy Spirit of listening because if you can't be present to Christ yourself, it's hard to encourage someone else to be present to Him. Self-awareness is huge and it's tricky. Within a person's story, you can ask questions to pull out their story and many times, the pain comes out and then the discussion of what are you doing? How is the Lord speaking to you in this? 

Kasey Olander: 

In the context of this formal relationship that you mentioned, what is actually happening in a spiritual direction session? I would never do this, but if I were observing somebody's spiritual direction session, the directee meeting with the director, what would I be looking at? 

 Gail Seidel: 

Casey, do you want to answer that? 

Casey Tygrett: 

Sure, yeah. What I think is wonderful about this practice is that you may, again, like we talked about with the definition, each director I think approaches it differently. The other thing before I answer that, Kasey, is that spiritual direction tends to be, on the whole, a longer-term relationship. 

I had the same director for eight years, nine years. I have some directees who've met with me for three, four years. When you get to that point, there's a rhythm, there's a rapport, you know this person's story so well, there are some assumed things that you wouldn't normally need to do. 

Typically, we meet for about an hour, 50 minutes to an hour. I like to begin with silence, and I invite the directee just to settle in. A lot of my direction anymore is taking place on Zoom, so everybody can just slide in and click mute and I'll mute because my dog loses his mind sometimes. We'll settle into the silence, and then I usually begin with some kind of prayer practice. Whether we just pray and use a Psalm. One of my favorites to use is, "Be still and know that I'm God." Just repeat that a couple of times and let it become not only a touch point for the directee to connect with what God is saying, but also to put themselves in a posture of being still and knowing that He is God. 

The middle part, 35,45 minutes of the session, I usually ask my directees, "What are you bringing with you today? What's the most important thing for us to talk about?" Other directees will sometimes say, "I'm just going to hold the silence, and whenever you're ready, whenever you have something you want to offer, feel free to break it." Sometimes that works better when you have longer term relationships. 

As the person, the directee is talking, I'm usually just asking follow-up questions when I feel prompted. This is the big difference I think for most people that gets a little unnerving if they've never had spiritual direction before, is that we hold a lot of silence. We don't immediately respond when the directee stops talking. That gets even more fun on Zoom because they don't know if your connection dropped or if you're just holding silence for them, so I'm trying to nod a lot so they know I'm still there. 

What we're doing is trying to discern what God is prompting us to ask or just catching up and listening to what they just said. Sometimes there's a reflecting back that happens. Here's what I hear you saying, or there's a question that's how have you prayed about that? How have you interacted with God on that topic? 

At the end of the session, I usually take some time to go back into silence and let what we've talked about settle and then I'll offer some observations, maybe a question or two for them to ponder, maybe a spiritual practice. I always talk about how the irony of spiritual direction is it's not very directive. We're not going to tell you a whole lot of stuff to do. We're going to offer some things to you at the end that are gifts that we noticed, and you can take those and use as you will. 

The hope is that through that whole process, through listening and being with and holding a silent space for people, they will hear more from God than they hear from me. My job is really just to make sure that the table is set and that they're able to come and have that meal. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's really helpful. That really helps it be a little more concrete for me, for our listener, and also helps to give some of the fluidity that you're talking about. It's not that there's a set formula for every session looks the same. 

Casey, I loved your quote that you can't microwave it. I love it and I don't love it because I would rather microwave things. I like the convenience, but that's a really helpful description about what your session might look like in terms of allowing so much space for silence, really it does mean that a person can hear from the Lord, and it's not just about what Casey says or what any director says. What about you, Gail? What do your sessions look like? 

 Gail Seidel: 

I would not disagree with anything he said. I think that the other thing is the year calendar of usually the people I meet with, it's once a month, so I know that they'll have 12 times from that year to interact. That's a hard thing to do because you want... let's talk next week, too. It helps give them a rhythm to follow. 

I think I just can't agree more with what Casey said. It gives the Holy Spirit time to work in their life, in their heart and in the issues they've brought, but it also gives you as a director time to think about it and to pray for them, and to ask the spirit to give you a sense of direction for them. You're right, there's irony because this really isn't true. We're not directing anyone's life, we're pointing them to the Lord and hopefully they're listening. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. You mentioned Zoom and then obviously y'all mentioned in person as well. Is there a space for spiritual direction over the phone? Is it an audio important that you hear the person or more important that you see the person? How do those dynamics work? 

 Gail Seidel: 

I meet with my spiritual director on the phone. I met her through the Gordon Conwell doctoral program, so I know what she looks like and she knows what I look like, but I like that because I'm not focused on myself, how she is looking, is she's smiling at me, that it is just strictly audio. You have to figure out what works best for you and for the people you're directing. You need to think through how you're going to offer it. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'd like to press into this question that Casey asked about what's typical, and I realized that in one sense, no session is typical because every person is unique and everybody's situation is unique, and every time you meet with them, it's a new experience. Having said that, I know that both of you have worked with many people over time, and when you work with lots of people over time, you start to see some things that happen frequently. 

I just would be curious from each of you, what would you say is extremely common that you see very much of? I'm just curious about that moment as you're working with people, you see certain things, just okay, there it is, there it is again, there it is again come up. 

Kasey Olander: 

Casey, why don't we start with you? 

Casey Tygrett: 

Yeah. I was going to say there's a rhythm to asking a spiritual director a question because we're not used to immediately responding, so we make the worst podcast guests ever. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, you warned us there'd be silence. 

Casey Tygrett: 

One of the most helpful things for me as a director has been learning more about things like certain personality profiles and also different perspectives on the stages of the spiritual life. There are all sorts of people who've done research on that, James Fowler was probably one of the first, but there have been others. Thomas Ashbrook is another, a book called Mansions of the Heart that talks about the development. That's one of the keys I think is what I notice is there are these milestones in a person's spiritual formation that map over onto different stages. We're also onto their unique design. 

For us at Soul Care, for me, when I work with church leaders or ministry leaders, it also maps onto where they are in their ministry journey. There are things people at year two are dealing with that year 4, 6, 8, 10 and on look very, very different. I think a lot of the issues are related to development where they are in the stages of their growth and their life with God, self, and others. People who are early on in their faith, I've had a lot of twenty-somethings who have just stepped into ministry and there's a whole different slate of things they're dealing with. 

We talk a lot about ego, we talk a lot about not believing your own hype, and listening well for the ways that God crucifies the stuff that needs to get crucified in us in order for us to move on and be healthy and well in the future ministry that we have. I think for me, what I notice is a lot of things that are related to these stages of spiritual growth and also just the nuances of a person, whether it's their personality type or their disc profile or whatever it might be, if they have access to that, I like to know that. I think that's helpful for how they articulate stories, how they talk about. 

I usually always like to get a sense of what their experience, like how they came to faith and what their spiritual journey has been like up until the point that they met me because that says a lot about how they interact with God and when they listen to God and what that means to them. Audible voice, sign from heaven, does it sound like me? Does it feel like a burrito? Whatever it might be, helping to discern how they best hear from God is also really helpful. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's fascinating. Could you speak a little bit more... Before Gail, Casey, could you speak a little bit more to the stages of a person's spiritual journey? 

Casey Tygrett: 

Yeah. What I'm looking for is what are the things... I'm listening for parts of their story where they're identifying markers, boundary markers, and basically the question around what does it mean for me to be faithful? Often that means belief, often that might mean especially for people in ministry, what they're believing in and how they're presenting it. 

The other is their community. How does this affect the people they're with? I had a directee at one point who was going through a transition in his belief, in the belief aspect, of the things that he held true and to be most important in his spiritual life. He was having a conflict because the community he was a part of held to one thing and he no longer held to that. It had actually been some time since he hadn't, but he really hadn't dealt with it because of the cost of losing that particular community of people. There are so many people who change their belief before they change their community because the cost is higher to change your community than your belief. 

Part of a spiritual direction for him was a bit of permission to say this is part of you growing in faith and in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. This is part of you developing. This is part of where God is taking you. Part of it's giving permission, part of it is helping them navigate through how do you talk about this and do you talk about it? How does prayer change for you? It's as if they think it's the Jenga tower and you take the one block out and then everything else is going to crumble. Nope, people have been doing this for thousands of years, so you can take that block out. There's going to be a new block put in there eventually, but right now that's something that you can move and you are still God's beloved and whom He's well pleased, fearfully wonderfully made, none of that changes. 

Some of that is just attending to them where they are and helping them move from one stage to another because every person that I've studied in the stages about stages of spiritual life say that move from one stage to another is always facilitated by pain. Every time we make a jump from one place to another, there's a significant amount of pain, whether that's internal, relational or otherwise, sometimes it's vocational, especially with pastors and staff. That's how I look at the stages question. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, thanks for that, Casey. Do you have any other resources besides, you mentioned Mansions of the Heart book? 

Casey Tygrett: 

I think starting with something, it depends on how academically inclined. Gail probably has some suggestions too here on stages, but I think James Fowler is a good initial one, it's a human development and spiritual development. It's been one of the ones that I see most people building off of. Thomas Ashbrook's is good. It has more of a devotional practical quality to it, so if you're looking for something that's a bit more entry level. He uses the research or the writings of St. Teresa of Avila, her interior castle, and he talks about these mansions that are basically stages of development. That one is I think a bit more accessible, but Fowler's is probably one of the better ones that I've seen. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's really helpful. 

 Gail Seidel: 

I am going to have to leave the conversation to go find it. Maybe I can send it to you, Kasey. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's totally fine. Gail, what would you say to Bill's question? Are there common trends? 

Bill Hendricks: 

What have you found to be rather common, if I could use that word, or not unexpected? 

 Gail Seidel: 

That's a good question. I think as a practice with a certain individual, for them to know what the parameters are, it's a structural, almost systemic issue. This is the way I'm going to offer this to you. It's almost the exact same thing that Casey described of going into silence, reading some scripture, but for the individual to know what they can expect because it's not really a time to talk unendingly for hours, but to clarify that we have an hour, and this is what I'm thinking in terms of, and is there something you would like to have included in that hour? Just so that there's a good synergism between your working style, I guess is what I would call, so they know what to expect. 

I also try to clarify you don't have to do this with me the rest of your life. Say six months, whatever seems... Because sometimes it's a fit and sometimes it's not a fit. I think we as directors need to be free to say, "I think you might be served better by meeting blah, blah, blah." I haven't had to do that very often, but I think we need to create boundaries so that there isn't an expectation again, that it's a lifetime commitment. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Great. I actually have a follow-up question to that, which is the flip side. I'd just be curious, what's the most surprising or the most unexpected thing that's ever happened in your interactions with your various directees? Didn't see that one coming. I mean things that you're maybe excited about, it was some breakthrough or some amazing way in which God intervened in their lives. 

 Gail Seidel: 

I just want to say this one thing, I do think there's some legal things like if this would be true of a priest or a pastor or counselor, if something is revealed that's majorly illegal or they've committed a certain act, that's very tricky with spiritual director. I would recommend seeking the council of someone else, another director, and then going back to the person and first encouraging them to confess whatever it is to the right people. I don't know. Casey, maybe you've had that experience. It's awkward. 

Casey Tygrett: 

It is. I've had that experience more as a pastor than I have as a spiritual director, and I don't know what that says, I don't know what that means. I know that that's been my experience, but the things that have been most surprising to me in spiritual direction is for the most part, it is a very... Every month we're really tending the soil. It's a very simple conversation. 

You don't normally have... Maybe Gail does, I don't. I don't normally have these big... Me and a directee, you don't normally have these big amazing moments. Usually it's like a steady checking in as we go and you leave each session going, "I'm glad we met," and then you move on. But there have been occasions where I've seen a directees... Just the great part, the thing that excites me so much is when I watch their viewpoint on God themself or other people, or all three, to watch it change in real time and to see the freedom that happens. 

That can be so simple because we deal with a lot of people who are coming with questions like my spiritual practices just aren't... They aren't feeding me like they used to. A lot of times, there's a question that's why aren't my spiritual practices feeding me or should I leave this ministry or should I stay? Or if I leave, how do I leave, if I stay, how do I stay? They're coming with these questions and they're always rooted in a particular viewpoint about God, about themselves and about other people. 

It's watching them have a moment where I didn't do anything amazing. I didn't do any magic voodoo. I just asked a question and you watch it dawn on them, and they go... To the point we were making earlier about how you want to move people to a place. This is when you're like I'm just going to ask this question. You ask the question and all of a sudden, they go... That's it. And then there's this just effusive thing that happens. That doesn't happen very often, but that is one of the unexpected things because I don't ever sit down and go, I'm going to talk to this guy today or this woman today, and this is the day the floodgates break free. It never happens like that. It's usually unexpected some Thursday in February and all of a sudden, there's a lightning bolt moment and those are just so sweet and so humbling. 

I'm just there. I'm just a guy with a Zoom connection, a microphone who spent two years and some money getting a certificate. I'm just here to be present. The Spirit's doing all this stuff, I'm just making sure that the puck stays in play. Those are really, really wonderful moments and I try to hang on to those. 

 Gail Seidel: 

I think too, this highlights the fact that this is really God's work, even though we are a human being, sitting there being present. That has helped me relax that I might see what I would like to see that person become, but that's God's issue. I could make 1,000 suggestions. 

Kasey Olander: 

It seems like it's encouraging your directee to trust the Lord, but also it's you as the director trusting the Lord that He's going to show up and that He's going to speak to you and to them and just being participant in the process instead of being the one who's driving it. 

 Gail Seidel: 

Right. 

Casey Tygrett: 

That's always helpful because sessions don't always go the way you hope they would, so if you allow yourself, you can become pretty self-conscious about it. I try to just embody the idea of what needs to happen today in this session will happen. 

 Gail Seidel: 

Oh, that's good. That's good. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Casey, you've used two analogies that are very interesting relative to our cultural moment. Kasey Olander, you put your finger on one of them earlier because you talked about spiritual direction is like tilling the soil, which is an organic over time process. It's growing crops over time or an arbor of trees over time. 

Earlier, you used it's not microwaving. There's not a microwave moment here. That seems very counter cultural to where most people I think in our culture are today, which is I need it now I need it fast. I don't have time to wait around. I wish I did, but I'm busy and boy, can we get to it quickly? I need God to show up now, I can't wait 10 years. My need is great, my time is dear. 

Even as I ask a question, everything in me says that's probably the person who really needs to have some direction in terms of how they relate to God but you see the tension there, and I'm just curious how you help people see the value of what spiritual formation could do if they will submit to that time-bound process. Will it slow them down? What do we do with people that are busy and want it now? 

Casey Tygrett: 

That's a very interesting question. Gail, I'd love to hear your response to that first. 

 Gail Seidel: 

I think we want to make sure that we're clear about what the soul is. You can't talk about soul care or giving direction without understanding what the scriptures say about the soul and that the soul is that part of you that's going to endure after death. It's not your body, it's not your job, it's not your mate, it's not your physical appearance, but it's that part of you that connects with God. 

Now, this is such a good topic because we are all in the fast lane and we are wanting to get there as fast as we can. Help me with my soul care so I can become more soulish and relevant. I don't really have an answer except being patient and waiting and helping them see that this isn't a band-aid do it all right now experience. It's a long-term process, and if you don't really have time to enter into that, then this may not be for you. I don't think we should create an expectation that this is going to fix everything because it may open an awareness that's painful. I don't know, that's going around the block. I'm not sure that... 

Casey Tygrett: 

That's right on the block. I like that. I like that a lot. I think the one piece that I resonate most with is the idea that this can't be... I can't convince a person that they need to slow down. Mindy likes to say that at Soul Care, we tend to deal with two different groups of people, either candle lighters or jet fuel drinkers. 

The jet fuel drinkers are the ones that talk about efficiency more often than they do about the slow... It's a sprint, not a marathon. I don't know that I can sell someone who is bought into the jet fuel drinking world on spiritual direction because, the ROI in corporate language, the ROI isn't there, depending on what your metrics are. 

What I find is when people come to us for spiritual direction, they've usually come to the point at which the jet fuel no longer is satisfying them, and the significance piece is starting to creep up. The sprint is no longer either physically possible or they've realized it's just it's not worth it. Spiritual direction becomes this really safe place for them to go. "I feel like I'm at the edge of the way I was taught." Maybe they're bought in... Henry Nowand in the book, In the Name of Jesus, talks about those three temptations in leadership to be relevant, to be powerful, to be spectacular. They've just come to the point where they realize those are a fool's errand all three, so what's the alternative? 

I think spiritual direction is the wonderful safe third space where a person can step in and we can help them see that there actually is another way to do things. There's a way to take care of your soul and be efficient at what you've been called to do, be vocationally faithful, but not lose your soul in the process. It's difficult because I've had some directees who I feel like they came to meet with me once, they had that experience Bill that you described where they're like this isn't fast enough, and they've walked away. It's almost as if I have to say... It isn't almost, it is. I have to say okay, and maybe at some point when the jet fuel runs out of value for you, you'll go, "I met with that guy that one time that was different. I feel like that's what I need right now." 

There is this playing the long game, planting a seed, back to that metaphor that we get to do all the time and that the relative pace of people... I always say everyone has a reckoning. Everyone hits a wall. The question is who's going to be waiting there to pick them up and help them see what God is up to even after they hit the wall? I think that's what spiritual directors do. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Ironically, our time is dwindling, but you have... This goes against everything you just said, but do you have a quick answer to who should seek spiritual direction? You said somebody who's not finding satisfaction with the life in the fast lane and the productivity. Who else is a good candidate for somebody who should seek a spiritual director? 

Casey Tygrett: 

I'm supposed to say everybody. 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay. 

Casey Tygrett: 

I'm going to say everybody, but specifically if you're thinking should I or should I not? I would say anyone who's having questions around discernment, trying to make a decision or trying to discern what God is up to in a situation, anyone who feels like they're at an impasse in their spiritual growth, the practices that used to give them life, the podcasts, the preaching, it just doesn't connect like it used to. Anyone who's having issues specifically with prayer and the life that they have in prayer, and maybe someone who feels like they're at a stage, they're moving from one stage of their spiritual life to another. Those are a few that I would suggest. Gail, what about you? What would you add? 

 Gail Seidel: 

Because you're so familiar with Mindy, I love her book, Discovering Soul Health, and she talks about the soul that is neglected and dangerously tired and then soul that can be nourished. There's not time to go into all the categories, but there's a lot of scripture that talks about what the soul is and wants. I don't know, Hebrews. In the Hebrew word, there's supposedly 750 times that it's mentioned in the Old Testament, for sure. 

It's just understanding that all of this longing and semi-depression and frustration and feeling scattered and unloved and unknown, you name all of them, are reflections of what you're talking about, that our soul health needs some attention. Maybe people don't seek it unless they're really desperate or they go to a seminar and hear Mindy speak and you think I want that. I have benefited a lot from her teaching and her books, and I think she has a good place in the body of Christ. 

Kasey Olander: 

Mm-hmm. My last question, hopefully even more briefly, is how does somebody find a spiritual director. Once they've decided, yes, spiritual director direction is worth pursuing and I've set aside the funds for it, how do I know that a director is a good fit? Briefly. 

 Gail Seidel: 

I think the best way is to contact Grafted Life Ministries, because they have a list, they have answers to your question. It's www.graftedlife.org, Grafted Life Ministries, and they cover how do you know if you're looking for a spiritual director? They list geographically if you are registered with them. They have a long list of... I just checked and my spiritual director is listed with them. 

It just is an organization that might be helpful. It's not the only organization, but it gives you ideas of where to look, what you're looking for, and should you even consider becoming a spiritual director because a lot of times, someone who's already in direction find that they really are energized by helping others, coming alongside of them and campaigning. 

Casey Tygrett: 

I would say one suggestion is don't Google spiritual direction. Every religious tradition has spiritual direction, so if you're specifically looking for someone from a Christian tradition, don't go to Google. Grafted Life is a great resource, if you're interested in Soul Care, our directors, we have a team of 13 directors on our team from a variety of different contexts, speaking different languages, so soulcare.com, you can find our list of directors there as well. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's awesome. I think that's all of the time that we have, regrettably. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Unfortunately. 

Kasey Olander: 

Mm-hmm. I wish that we could talk longer, but we'll have to say goodbye for now. Gail and Casey, thank you guys so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. 

Casey Tygrett: 

Likewise. 

 Gail Seidel: 

Good to meet you, Casey. 

Casey Tygrett: 

So good to be with you, Gail. Thank you, friends. 

Kasey Olander: 

On behalf of The Table Podcast, we also want to thank you, our listener for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure. If you like our show, then please find us on your podcast app and leave us a rating or review so it'll help other people discover the show. We hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues with God and culture to demonstrate the relevance of theology to everyday life.