Preaching the Word

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, welcome to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of scripture and biblical theology to everyday life. I'm Bill Hendricks, the executive director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center, and I want to welcome you. Let me begin our podcast today, before I get into the actual topic, with a bit of history, that's the best way to do it. 

I think in about 1890, 1891, somewhere in there, a young music student named Lewis Sperry Chafer, he quit his studies at Oberlin College in Ohio, and he began traveling with an evangelist named Arthur Reed. And before long, Chafer married. His sweetheart's name was Ella Case. The Sperry's then launched a traveling music ministry that took them all over the United States for about the next 30 years. And before long, Sperry is being asked to preach and to teach in the churches that he and Ella visited. And through those encounters, he met countless pastors and students and they kept saying the same thing, "We want more thorough education," in what they talked about as Bible exposition and interpretation. And burdened by all of these requests, Chafer eventually moved here to Dallas, Texas, and with his brother and several others, he founded the Evangelical Theological College with the express purpose of emphasizing what was called expository preaching and the teaching of scriptures according to the plain, normal historical meaning of the words of scripture in their original languages. 

That college, of course, eventually became Dallas Theological Seminary. The school's motto from its very inception has always been, Preach the Word. And by preach is meant expository preaching. Now all of this raises the question then, what exactly is expository preaching? And what does the seminary mean by that term and the term Bible exposition? To help us talk about this and the implications of it, I am very honored to introduce a seminary graduate as well as a seminary professor named Dr. Carl Laney, who is Professor Emeritus out at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon. As I say, Dr. Laney has his ThD from Dallas Seminary, and before that was at was Portland Seminary for your ThM and MDiv. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So Carl, welcome to The Table Podcast today. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Thank you, bill. It's a privilege to be here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And I just should mention that we're particularly privileged to have Carl with us because as we're recording this Table Podcast, he is at Dallas Seminary for the week for what is known as the Nathan D. Maier series in Bible Exposition. And maybe we'll get into talking about who Nathan Maier was and the purpose of that. 

But Carl, before we jump into all of this, let me roll the clock back. Tell us about your background, where you grew up, and really how you got into theological studies yourself and so forth. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Oh, thank you, Bill. Happy to do that. Well, fortunately, I grew up in a Christian home, and God was at work through my mom and my dad to bring me to faith in Christ when I was 10 years old. I was baptized at First Baptist Church in Eugene. That was the beginning of my spiritual journey. But like many young people, I wandered from the Lord and especially in my early college days, but an organization, Campus Crusade for Christ was really instrumental in getting me back on track. 

There was a fraternity brother who was involved with Campus Crusade and he challenged me to walk with the Lord and to help him to be a witness at the Sigma Chi House at the University of Oregon. God used that man to change my life, to get me on track again with the Lord. I tell the story in greater detail in my book, The Story of the Bible, where I tell my testimony. But that was the beginning of my spiritual journey, which eventually led me to Western Seminary where I did my M.Div and Th.M. Then wanting to teach and preach the Bible, I decided to enter the Bible Exposition program here at Dallas Theological Seminary and had a wonderful three years studying with Dr. Pentecost at Dallas Seminary. And that was a wonderful experience and I'm really glad to be back here again. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Just out of curiosity, when you were there in Eugene in college, where was college again? 

J. Carl Laney: 

University of Oregon. 

Bill Hendricks: 

University of Oregon. 

J. Carl Laney: 

The Fighting Ducks. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. What was your intended major? What did you major in? 

J. Carl Laney: 

Well, I majored several different majors. I started out in business, eventually ended up in public administration, because it was a general administrative degree program. I did an internship at First Baptist Church with Dr. Jack MacArthur, father of John MacArthur. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Gotcha. 

J. Carl Laney: 

I worked with a college youth for a year there at First Baptist Church. I was beginning to kind of transition from a general administrative background to more interest in ministry and then came to Western Seminary. That's where I really got involved in studying the scripture and was thrilled to get into the word of God and wanted to teach it. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, that's actually a question I wanted to ask you. At what point the Bible sort of became the central text for you as far as your growth? 

J. Carl Laney: 

That's good. Well, it was in my time at Western Seminary as I got into the biblical languages. I wasn't a great student at the University of Oregon, I just wanted to get that done and move on to other things. But when I got to Western, I was studying something I really loved and I wanted to deepen my understanding. So the Hebrew, the Greek, all the biblical exegesis, and I did well in that, thank you, Lord. But that whet my appetite to no more and to teach. I led some Bible studies while at the University of Oregon and then had some opportunities to give some first sermons, but that whet my appetite for further studies. I realized if I wanted to be a teacher of the word, I needed to get all the training that was available. And since Dallas Seminary offered a doctorate in Bible exposition, I felt like that was the place for me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So there you've used that term Bible exposition. I think of you as viewers or as listeners or both, you may be a person who you know all about Bible exposition. You may be a seminary graduate, and this podcast attracted your attention because of your interest in that topic. And on the other side, you may be someone who's like, "What in the world is Bible exposition? I occasionally hear that term, but I have no clue what it means." So when you use that term, how do you define it? 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, good question. Well, there's lots of different styles of preaching. Some people preach about the culture, some preach about morals, some people preach about topics, various topics in scripture. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Some people preach about politics. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

These days. 

J. Carl Laney: 

That's a dangerous one these days. But Bible exposition, as I see it, is explaining the Scripture, explaining how the argument of the text develops principles for living. So I look at the words, I look at the sentences, I look at the context and seek to explain what is going on verse by verse. And for me, that's Bible exposition. It's not my thoughts, it's not my ideas or my politics or the culture. It's what does God say to us and how can I make it clear to the people who are listening to my sermon? Charles Ryrie was an expert. He was a brilliant man, two earned doctorates. But he didn't impress people with his erudite ideas. He took people to the word of God. He made it clear and understandable, and that's always been my goal. The best compliment that has ever paid to me is that, you make the Bible clear and understandable. And that's my goal in teaching. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Now, I heard in that definition, if I could put it this way, I heard a presupposition, which is that God himself is actually speaking to humans through the Bible. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yes. Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And some of us may take that for granted, but I think there's many people in the culture for whom that's new news. I reference Lewis Sperry Chafer, of course, our founder at DTS initially. He founded the seminary at a time when many people in the culture and in churches, they thought the Bible was an interesting text. It had historical and certainly moral value. Is was good teaching. But this idea, God himself speaking through the Bible was not... No, that that's an impossibility. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. Well, the Bible teaches that it's the word of God. All scripture, Paul says as he writes to Timothy, is God breathed, the breath of God, the very breath of God, the breathing out of God's words to us, all scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, for correction, for training and righteousness, that the people of God may be proficient through God's word. So the word of God is given to us in the Bible, we have general revelation through nature that tells us that God exists. And then we have the special revelation through his word that tells us how we can be saved and points us to Jesus, the Savior of humanity. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, this really dovetails with our slogan about the Table Podcast. We want to show the relevance of biblical theology to everyday life. You use the word principles, that's important and I want to drill on that for just a moment. Because clearly there's so many issues that people face on a day-to-day basis. There's nothing in the Bible about artificial intelligence. There's nothing in the Bible about countless issues that people face on a day-to-day basis. So they think, "Well..." There may be a few topics, maybe some things on marriage, or morals, virtues, but does it really apply to everyday life? And what you're saying is, well, it actually does, but there's some work that has to be done to see that. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I study the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament as it's often called. And even though that was written for a particular people, the people of Israel, it has application and relevance for today. And even such a subject, if I'd mention it, the subject of tattoos. Well, you say, "Well, that was for Israel," and people say, "It doesn't apply to us. It doesn't apply to us." And yet I look at that passage and what God is saying is that your body was created by me, and I want you to take good care of it. And I've given you an identifying mark, the love for one another. That's the mark of the Christian. 

And so we can mark ourselves as followers of God, not by a physical mark on our body, but by our way we treat one another, the way we love one another. And I know that a lot of people get involved in tattoo, body art as it's called today, and that's okay, but I try to help my students to see that beyond that command, don't tattoo your body, is a principle. Our bodies are given to us by God, that the temple of the Holy Spirit, we need to do everything possible to preserve what God has made us in our bodies and not deface what he has created. So there's a principle there, and it may be relevant to the issue of body art. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, it certainly injects into one's thinking and decision-making about, do I want to go get a tattoo? It may affect what they decide to do and probably should. Because if I hear you correctly, somewhere in Scripture, there's always something that brings God into the equation of whatever we're trying to decide. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Exactly. Same thing with the prohibitions about eating pork. Well, that's a law given to Israel, an identification in terms of the kinds of food that the Israelite people, who worshiped and followed God, would eat. And how does it apply to us? Well, it causes us to think, what are we taking into our body? Even though that prohibition isn't for the church, the ceremonial food laws are not for the church today, but nevertheless, there's an application, there's a principle. How are you taking care of your body? What are you putting into your body? And it may relate to some of the things we put into our bodies today in terms of things that are not healthy, not good for us, and don't well represent who we are as followers of Jesus. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Now, the Bible exposition leads into expository preaching. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yes. Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And I guess one of the... Maybe it's a combined question of, it sounds like there's a methodology here. This isn't just opening a passage and reading it a few times and then having a few things to say, there's something you're actually looking for there. Then of course figuring out how to communicate it. So it sounds like there's some real preparation that's required if you're going to engage in expository preaching. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yes, and I've written a book on this subject. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Oh, good. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Everything you need to know before you read the Bible. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I like that. Everything you need to know before you- 

J. Carl Laney: 

Before you read the Bible. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Okay. 

J. Carl Laney: 

So before you read the Bible, you need to know a little bit of the history of the people of Israel. 

Bill Hendricks: 

The story of the Bible. 

J. Carl Laney: 

The story of the Bible. You need to know a little bit about the culture, and I feel it's important to know a little bit about the geography. Where is Jerusalem? Where's Bethlehem? Where's the Sea of Galilee? Where's Jericho? This book was written in the land that we call Israel. So understanding the context, the historical, physical, cultural context is really important in understanding the message. Now you can understand the message of John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his unique one of a kind son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." You can understand that message without having gone to Israel. Without having understood some of the archeology and the biblical culture. 

But nevertheless, the background of scripture enhances our reading of scripture. It makes it kind of come alive. So the message of salvation is clear, but we can understand the scripture in enhanced way, kind of going from black and white television to living color if we understand the background. So that's important. Then to understand, what was the purpose in writing a particular book? What did Paul or Moses or Job seek to accomplish? And then we look at the context of a particular passage and say, "What's going on in this chapter? What's the flow of thought in this chapter?" And we don't want to take a verse just right out of context. We want to understand it within the context of the Bible and the particular section we're studying. 

Then we get down to the individual verses, what's the purpose of this verse? How do the conjunctions help us understand the verse? And then for those of us who have had the wonderful privilege of studying the biblical languages, we ask, "Okay, what does this particular word mean in Hebrew or in Greek?" So we get to know the Bible better in that way. Then having done all our exegetical work, basically drawing out from the text what God has put there, then we proceed to the principles. And the principles are different from topics. You might say, "Well, this topic is about baptism." But then what is the principle of baptism? The principle of baptism is that this immersion in water represents our unity with Christ, our death and burial and resurrection into a new life with Christ. It doesn't save us, but it depicts who we are, identifying ourselves as followers of Jesus. So we take the topic of baptism and we understand a principle that that represents, and that's what we preach and teach, the principles, God's principles that are tucked away in his word. Principles for us to understand and apply. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, it sounds like you're trying to build a lot of bridges between people and incidents and words that were given and happened a long time ago to things that are happening for people right now today. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Right. Right. Exactly. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And bridges is kind of the key word there, because there's a lot of distance between 2000, 3500 years ago. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, right. Yeah. You've got a different language. The Hebrew and Greek language. Got a different culture. You've got history in terms of change that have taken place in our world order. So you've got a lot of bridges to cover as you get into the text of Scripture and then try to make it relevant. My goal as an expositor of Scripture is not just to teach the facts, but to show how it's relevant to our life today, how we can live differently and more successfully based upon the principles that God has given us in his word. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That seems like a powerful idea, because otherwise, I see a lot of people today, they pick a passage of Scripture and they go, "Well, this is what it meant to those people," But that doesn't apply today because we don't have that today. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. Right. Well, again, there's a lot of things that are specific for Israel, the ceremonial food laws, the sacrifices. But what does that teach us about God? Well, God created the idea of substitutionary atonement. Ultimately the sacrifices of the Hebrew Bible that we read in Leviticus, point the way to the ultimate sacrifice, Jesus, who sacrificed his blood, shed his blood for us on the cross. So even though the sacrifices themselves are not relevant for us today, the principle behind the sacrifice, penal, substitutionary atonement, is relevant as we understand the person and work of Jesus. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So as we talk about this, I suppose I can hear someone asking, "Well, this is great. I see the need and the value of expository preaching. Does that leave any role for topical series?" 

J. Carl Laney: 

Oh yeah. In fact, I did some topical preaching in chapel this week. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Okay. 

J. Carl Laney: 

I spoke about Ezra. And Ezra, an example, a model for ministry. I pointed out several things about the life of Ezra. So it was more topical, although I did expound three individual passages showing how Ezra's life is a model for us, particularly as ministers of the word. Then I preached on Barnabas as an example of encouragement. Using your dad, Dr. Howard Hendricks, as an example. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Of a man who really applied what Barnabas illustrates in terms of encouraging others. And I gave an example from my own life that was very discouraging as a young prof, and getting a class evaluation from a student that really said I had no potential to be a seminary professor, I should go into the pastoral ministry. Well, that was discouraging. But as I study scripture, I find that there's a real ministry of encouragement that your dad certainly had and that Barnabas had, and I took the topic of encouraging others and showed how people can project others into excellence and help them to achieve excellence through words of encouragement. 

Your dad was a master of that. He encouraged me, even as a young prof. I remember going to a faculty meeting, and I had gotten there late because I'd just gotten out of a class. I came in, I didn't want to disturb Dr. Walvoord who was leading the meeting. So at this big long table where the faculty were seated, I just took a seat at the end. Your dad, Dr. Hendricks, looked back and he said, "Friend, come up further," and invited me to come up and join the faculty. And I was so encouraged by his kindness and his words. 20 years later, Dr. Hendricks was going to speak as a graduation speaker at our commencement. I hadn't seen him in 20 years. But when I saw him walking down the hall, he said, "Hi, Carl, good to see you again." He remembered me. It was a small thing, but- 

Bill Hendricks: 

It was a huge thing. 

J. Carl Laney: 

... It was huge. It was huge for me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It was a small thing, but a huge thing for you. 

J. Carl Laney: 

So that kind of thing I think can propel people to excellence more so than a critical comment. We can damage people through critical comments, but if we, I'm going on and on here, but we can encourage them to strive for excellence as we encourage them. And Barnabas illustrates that. That's what I spoke on today, in fact. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So in that case, you took a character out of the first century in that context and said, "There's people like that today," and you made that bridge. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. I tried to help people to see that Barnabas provides an example of one of the biblical qualifications for leadership, and that is to be an encouraging kind of person. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Does this affect... And I'm thinking here of the work that particularly pastors and preachers have to do, which is often what I'd call occasional presentations. You've got a homily for a wedding or you've got a special occasion in the church, a dedication of a building, or sending some missionaries off or- 

J. Carl Laney: 

Or a funeral. 

Bill Hendricks: 

... a funeral. Does expository preaching, do you set that aside at that point? 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. Some people do that, and I've been to special services like that. But I feel the most important thing that I can present in a gathering of God's people, even if there's some unbelievers there, is to bring them back to the word of God. So I always have some kind of a message from a verse, from some kind of a text that says, "This is what God has to say about life. This is what God has to say about heaven. This is what God has to say about marriage." And I think at these special times, people are particularly open to receiving what God has to say. So at a funeral, I like to talk about heaven. Where is this person today, based upon their faith? Or maybe we don't know where this person is, but I want to tell you what God says about our future and encourage them to consider Christ. 

Weddings are a great time to talk about the beautiful picture that Paul gives us, Christ and his relationship with us depicted by the marriage union. A man loving his wife, sacrificing himself for her as Christ sacrificed himself for us. So marriage is a beautiful illustration, and that's a great message at a marriage. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It sounds like, let's take the funeral, you're probably not going to preach all of one Corinthians 15 here. That might take a while and might not be appropriate. But the fact that you have that grounding and that basis, and you've done the work to have a core message out of 1 Corinthians 15 or John 11, by which to bring both, certainly some instruction, but also some encouragement and hope. It sounds to me like it makes those words of encouragement and hope that much more powerful and grounded because they're not just based on pretty words, you've got truths from Scripture that you can demonstrate. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Right. Absolutely. I think that's what, you can say a lot of nice things about the person who has passed away. You can say a lot of nice things that people like to hear at a wedding. But if you can give them the truth of God's word, that's something they can- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Go back to. 

J. Carl Laney: 

... take away and remember and be blessed by in the future. I believe that expository teaching and preaching is relevant in all those special kind of meetings. I had the privilege of helping install a new pastor a couple of months ago at a church. He'd been my student and invited me to the installation. So I was able to use the biblical text from 2 Timothy 1:5, where Paul speaks about the importance of teaching with integrity and teaching with love, and I made application to his ministry in the future. I think expository teaching and preaching has relevance in those special meetings. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I'd be interested in your observations or commentary on what appears to me to be a bit of a phenomenon these days, where I hear... I don't know so much explicitly as more implicitly as people talk about the preaching discipline. And of course, because I'm at the seminary, I hear and read pastors, not just alumni, I am talking about just in the culture. There's sort of a message that's out there that's like, people today, they're not really drawn to that expository style, is how they'd put it. They want something that's a little more accessible. They want something that's first of all, not going to take as long, and they want more stories and they want something that holds their attention a little better. What happens when somebody goes down that road and puts the expository approach to the side? 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think you have to give up one for the other. I want to preach and teach in such a way that's relevant and applicable and interesting, that one of the worst sins a pastor can commit is make the word of God boring. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. Right. 

J. Carl Laney: 

So I want to make the word of God exciting and work hard to illustrate the principles, show how they're relevant. I use PowerPoint to illustrate the land of the Bible. If I don't show a PowerPoint every two or three minutes, somebody is going to start looking away and dreaming about what they're going to do Sunday afternoon. So I try to make the Bible interesting, relevant, applicable, and then give them some pictures that they can see. Jesus used parables. I asked John MacArthur once, what was the key to the success of his preaching? And he said, "Pictures, word pictures, helping people to visualize the truth of scripture." And he was an expert at that. 

I have used PowerPoint slides of Israel and things I can get off the internet to illustrate the text. Not a lot of words, but an image. If I'm talking about discouragement, I might have an image of a discouraged person, and then talk about what that is and how to get over it through Jesus and his help. I want to be expository, I want to be faithful to the text, I want to be relevant, and I want to make it interesting, and something that the people will say, "Wow, did a half an hour go by. I'm ready for more." One of the principles I always apply in my expository teaching and preaching, I want to make them say, "I wish he could keep on talking. I wish he could keep on giving us more." Rather than, "Oh man, this is getting long," and people checking their watch. So I usually stop before I think they're through. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Dad used to call it, keep them longing, not loathing. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, perfect. Yeah, I like that. Keep them longing and not loathing. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to whet their appetite so that they will want to go back and study more, rather than say, "Oh man, too much of this." I want to whet their appetite, draw them into the text, and encourage them to continue reading and studying God's word bock. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So I feel certain we have some folks tuning into this podcast who are not trained pastors, preachers, they haven't gone to seminary, but they're hearing all this and they're thinking, "This makes a lot of sense, but I don't know how to do this." Is there any hope for them or do they got to quit what they're doing and go to get formal education? 

J. Carl Laney: 

There's hope for everybody. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Good. 

J. Carl Laney: 

There's so many resources today. There's online resources, there's Bible study fellowship, which provides great teaching for people, men and women, that they can study and become better teachers. There's the academic resources that aren't over the top in terms of people's understanding. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So you don't have to know the original languages necessarily? 

J. Carl Laney: 

You don't. But if you'd like to use the original languages, there are books like Vine's Expository Dictionary. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Right. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Which is a simple book. All you have to do is look up the English word, it gives the Greek meaning and a definition. So if you're really into some... You want to expand your understanding and your teaching, you can use those resources that are available to us. There's computer resources, Logos has a great computer resource that a lot of people use to dig into the Scripture a little bit deeper. I have a friend, he's with the Lord, but he never went to seminary, and yet he was one of the finest expositors I've ever known. Because he worked hard to study the text, to explain the text, and to apply the principles. So seminary is a blessing and it's a privilege if you can go there. I'm so thankful for the seven years that I spent at Western and Dallas Seminary and benefited from that, not everybody has that privilege. But nevertheless, there are resources that any man or woman can become an expositor of God's word through careful study of the text, and there's resources available for that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's great. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Dallas Seminary has free courses that you can take- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, thank you for mentioning that. 

J. Carl Laney: 

That you can take online. 

Bill Hendricks: 

A growing menu of free courses from the Gospel of John to other books in both Testiments. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, yeah. And Pentecost has some courses, I believe there's one on the life of Christ that's available as well. So yes, there are resources, online resources. Dallas Seminary provides them, Western Seminary provides these resources for people who really want to study and prepare themselves to teach God's word effectively. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I have two questions that go together. So the first is, and you kind of touched into this, what are the dangers of not preaching expositionally? 

J. Carl Laney: 

The dangers of preaching, not expositionally, is that we insert our own ideas into the text, which may or may not be what God wants us to know and apply. I've heard that on occasion, people kind of get off track and their teaching is more cultural than biblical. They're giving their own ideas, whether it's politics or their own feelings of what needs to be done, instead of sticking close to the text and teaching what the text says. I don't have anything to say, Bill, but God does. My goal as an expositor is, make clear the message that God has given us in his word. And I'm going to do my very best to illustrate it, to show the principles and how these principles are relevant for us in the 21st century. The danger is that we're giving our own ideas instead of God's message for us. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Using the passages, not a text, but a pretext as they say. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

This is my supposition on what's true. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Exactly. Yeah. So I want to stick to the word. I don't have anything to say, but the word of God does, and it speaks to all issues of life. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, the companion question is, what are the potential pitfalls of preaching expositionally? 

J. Carl Laney: 

Ah, good. That's an excellent one as well. I think the pitfalls is that we want to preach the Hebrew, the Greek, talk about the forms of the verb, talk about all the exegetical details. That's what we're preaching instead of preaching the principles. How does this apply? What is the message that God has for us? And unfortunately, some people become the biblical scholar that is kind of detached from the needs of the church, the needs of the people. I want to be careful not to do that. I want to make sure that I've studied the text, I've exegeted the text, but I don't preach my exegesis. I preach the applications, the relevance, the principles of the text. I do my exegesis. I dig into the Greek and the Hebrew. And then once I figured out what God is saying, then I preach the principles and the application of the principles to life today. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So somebody could hear that and I can hear them saying, "So you're saying don't tell us how the watch works, just give us the time." But the quarter twist I'd put on that is, it sounds like you want to do enough demonstration from the text- 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

... that anybody with the text in front of them goes, "Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense." So they know, there's not some magic thing that you went into this secret book and got the formula and now you're the wisdom bringing all this to bear on everybody. It's like, no, come with me into the text. Here's where I got this. I'm telling you what God says. Here's what we really can see that it means for us today. And people hear that and they go, "Makes sense." 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, yeah. Good, Bill. That's a great balance. I want them to follow me in the thinking through the text. So I'm not just going to tell them the results. I want to show the process, a little bit of the process. I don't have to just talk about all the Greek or Hebrew words, but I want him to show the process. Here's how this relates to this conclusion. This therefore is significant because Paul has set the background, and now on the basis of this background, here's a conclusion that he's giving us. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you do use the term, whet their appetite. That's near and dear to my heart, only because my dad was big on people getting into the word for themselves. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

What I hear you saying is, "I don't want this book to be a mystery. And yes, I'm as the paid professional on a weekly basis as the preacher, the pastor, I need to bring them something from God's word. But what I'm really trying to do is to stimulate in them a desire that they themselves take that book, and they learn how to, maybe not the level that I'm doing it, but they learn how to read and understand and apply." 

J. Carl Laney: 

Absolutely. And Bill, we have the Holy Spirit- 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. 

J. Carl Laney: 

... as our ultimate teacher. We can study the text, but the Holy Spirit can illuminate the text for us and help enlighten our minds in terms of the message that God has for us. So we've got a resource that... There's scholars that can study the Hebrew text, the Greek text, just as an unbelieving person, and they're experts in the biblical details, maybe the history of the. But apart from the Holy Spirit, which we have as believers, you can't really understand the message of God. You can exegete it, you can give all the ideas, the meanings of various words. But we as Christians, a person who's born again, who has received Christ as a personal Savior, has the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit. 

And Jesus said, he will illuminate the text for you. He'll give you the understanding. So we've got this internal illuminator, the Holy Spirit, to help us understand the text and then to help us apply it and then to help us teach it. So we've got all the tools we need. Even if you haven't been to seminary. Seminary is a wonderful privilege. And if God opens the door for you to go to seminary, I just commend it. I had seven wonderful years in seminary. It was a privilege and a blessing, but not everybody can do that. But there are resources available for people who haven't been to seminary or maybe can't go to seminary, to learn and to study the scripture and to be faithful teachers of God's word. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, when we talk about that this has relevance for everyday life, part of the main reason you're here this week is for this series, the Nathan D. Maier series in Biblical Exposition. Which is a series of chapel messages that each year a qualified person is brought in to present these to the constituents here at the seminary. I thought it would be interesting just to know, who was Nathan D. Maier? That's not just a name from nowhere. 

Nathan D. Maier was a businessman here in Dallas. He was very much affected by the very process that we're talking about. He was an engineer, and after he graduated from Texas A&M, he went to work for the city of Dallas and was in the public works department. Many of the streets and bridges here in our community, he helped to engineer those and bring them about. So he really facilitated transportation and of course safety in those bridges and so forth. Eventually he left that role and he became the founder of his own company, Nathan D. Maier Consulting Engineers. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

He must've been an interesting guy, because apparently he was fairly short about five foot, five inches, but people remember him as all muscle. And he had actually was going to try out for the Olympic team in wrestling. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Oh, wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So he was quite physically fit and so forth. The story is that at the company parties and so forth, he'd invite the people to bring their kids to these things. Then everybody's having a good time and he would suddenly do handstands and start walking across the room on his hands to the light of all the children. 

But he was very affected by the teaching, the expository sermons and so forth that seminary graduates at his church and elsewhere would give. That was his primary source of learning the word of God and then taking it into the workplace and into his spheres of influence. So much so that he would hire DTS students while they're working their way through school in his company and employ them. Because it was a way for him to help prepare another generation of preachers and so forth. Unfortunately he died in an auto accident in April of 1997, but his widow, Gene, endowed the lecture series that you're a part of this week, as well as scholarships at Dallas Seminary. I just think that's a great sort of testimony to the power of expository preaching. This is just one man. Obviously we could tell countless stories of people who would remember various teachers, preachers who use that methodology and it transformed their life. But it's a story from the real world about that this stuff really makes a difference for People. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Boy, that's a great illustration of that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. Powerful. Very powerful story. Well, praise the Lord for Nathan D. Maier and his faith and his donation to these scholarships and to this lectureship that I've had a part in this week. Been a privilege to be here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, speaking of people that are fit and trim. Before we leave, I did want to ask you, you said, "Oh, please ask me about my running and the other things you've been a part of." 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. Well, I've been a lifetime runner ever since high school. It's part of my physical training, it keeps me trim and helps me eat things like donuts and not wear it afterwards. But yeah, so I'm a runner. I've written a book, My Life As a Runner: Left Foot, Right Foot, and so there's a story. And my son... Well, all my family members are runners. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So does that rise to the level of marathons and all of that stuff? 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, I've done a number of marathons and we have a race in Portland or in Oregon called a Hood to Coast race. We run 195 miles from Timberline Lodge to the Oregon coast in a relay. So we have 12 runners that compete in this relay. It's a lot of fun. It's really a kick. So I've been a runner, and I don't run the long runs that I used to run, the marathons, but I still am a runner, a regular runner, and keep busy with that. Every morning I go running and get some exercise in. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I praise God that he's preserved your knees and your hips. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah. I'm blessed. Very fortunate. Very fortunate, Bill. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And you and your wife and Nancy, you have several kids, is that- 

J. Carl Laney: 

Yeah, we have four children. Our oldest is in the real estate business. He graduated from the Naval Academy. Spent 20 years in the Navy and has retired, and now he's in real estate. He's got two children, two sons. My oldest daughter is the wife of a physician. She also has a law degree, but she's married to a doctor and they have three children. And then my second daughter has two little girls and she's married to a physician as well. And then my son David, is married and he's a professional runner. He works for Kraft Company, it's a Swedish company. He ran for Nike, but now he's running for Kraft. He does the really big races, the mountain races. He took third in the Ultra Trail Mont Blanc race- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Good for him. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Around Mont Blanc, 105 miles. So anyway, he's a serious runner and we always enjoy following his races and keeping up with his activities. So I'm really blessed to have four children following the Lord and seven grandchildren. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Congratulations. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Thank you. And a wonderful wife. Without her, I wouldn't be here. Nancy is a homemaker now. She was a teacher and she's a homemaker now. Volunteers with Bible Study Fellowship and then with the Pregnancy Resource Center in Portland. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's great. Well, I wanted you to tell all that because I wanted the listener to know that you're not some stodgy old guy up in an ivory tower who all he does is spend his time in the commentaries and the languages and occasionally comes down from the mountain and pronounces a expository sermon. That this is a real live man with a family and other responsibilities, who runs and just is a real guy, but also is deeply in love with the Lord- 

J. Carl Laney: 

Amen. 

Bill Hendricks: 

... because of the word that God has given. 

J. Carl Laney: 

And because of God's good grace to save me from sin and bring me into real life in Christ. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, it's a privilege to have you on campus this week. It's a privilege to have you on the Table- 

J. Carl Laney: 

Thank you. 

Bill Hendricks: 

... Podcast today, Carl. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Thank you, Bill. It's a blessing to be here, and I thank you very much. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, we're blessed. We are indeed blessed to have you here. And thank you for the work that you're doing. 

J. Carl Laney: 

Oh, thanks. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I want to thank you for listening to the Table Podcast. If you've enjoyed today's podcast and other podcasts that you've heard from us, we would invite you to head on over to Apple Podcasts and please leave a review, and anywhere you pick up your podcast, to subscribe. By leaving a review, it helps others know that the Table Podcast is around and is worth their time. 

At the Table, we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of Biblical truth for everyday life. And I look forward to seeing you back at the next Table Podcast. Have a good day.