Persecution Facing the Global Church

Bill Hendricks: 

Hello, I'm Bill Hendricks, the executive director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. I want to welcome you to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of biblically-based theology to everyday life. 

My routine on the weekends is perhaps like you, do what I need to do on Saturday, and then Sunday mornings I look forward to getting up, having a nice cup of coffee, getting dressed with my wife, getting in the car, going to church, having a wonderful time of worship and fellowship and time around the Lord's table, time in his word, and then coming home and getting on with the Sabbath. And of course, at church it's a joy to hear about what we might call a modern-day Pentecost that's going on around the world. People by the millions coming to faith in South America, Africa, Asia, and what a wonderful thing that God, the Holy Spirit is doing in bringing people to Jesus. 

I want to point out that the word Pentecost actually ends with the word cost, C-O-S-T, and that for many of the new believers around the world, there is a true cost to their decision to follow Jesus. Literally a couple of days ago, I heard about 13 new believers in one of the states in India where they have a law that says you can't practice forced conversions, which essentially means you can't evangelize people. But these folks heard the gospel and they decided to commit themselves to Jesus. And then as they gathered, some neighbors who were mad about this had heard about it, they broke into the service, 13 were arrested, and now they're on trial. They're in jail waiting trial, which if they lose the trial, they may well be life in prison for their willingness to follow Jesus. 

They were asked, how can we pray for you? They said, well, we certainly want you to pray to be released. We want to pray that we experience joy rather than fear in the midst of our persecution. And then they said, we want to pray that our persecutors will come to faith as the result of witnessing the way that we take this persecution. And so today what we want to dive into is the topic of persecution facing the global church. And I can think of no one better to talk with today than our guest, Ryan Brown, who is the CEO of Open Doors International, I'm sorry, Open Doors US, which serves persecuted Christians Worldwide. Ryan, welcome to The Table Podcast. 

Ryan Brown: 

Bill, thank you. It's a real privilege to be here with you today. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, it's a privilege for us to have you and want to hear about this work that you're doing with these persecuted believers. But before we dive into that, which is a pretty sobering topic, I got to tell you, in all honesty, take this the right way. If somebody said, well, Bill, who do you think would be the CEO of Open Doors, which works with persecuted Christians? I might've imagined somebody who they grew up in some country around the world that's closed access or whatever, and somehow their family came to faith as they were a kid and as a result, they faced severe persecution and they fled the country and somehow as refugees, they got asylum in the United States and they grew up here. And this little kid, because of what he experienced as a kid grows up and says, I want to do something about the church that's persecuted out there. 

But that's not your background as I understand it. In fact, you have a business degree, a really dual degree business management in English from Arizona State. As I understand it, you worked as a stockbroker for a while. And the craziest thing is this whole background of music that I want to hear about as a songwriter, a performer, a concert promoter. You even had a Christian music record label for a while as I understand it. So I hear all that. I'm like, how in the world did Ryan get into the work he's doing today? Roll the clock back and walk us through your story briefly. 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, no, I think ultimately it's God that brings these things together. I will admit there were a number of years where it felt a little schizophrenic at times, even as far as didn't necessarily feel linear as far as what God was doing and how one thing led to another. But it is so often the case at times you can see God's hand and his providence and his working in retrospect, things we see in the rear view mirror rather than on the horizon in front of us. And so that's certainly been the case in how God has worked and woven the experiences together that I have opportunity to. I think one of the overarching threads that has run through all of that is just a love for the church and recognizing that Christ could have chosen to work any way he desired to. 

He spoke eternity and the universe into existence with the word, and he had ability to structure it and to build it any way that he wanted to, but yet he chose to operationalize the expression of his love so often through this at times dysfunctional at times broken the body of Christ, and Christ has a deep and abiding love for his bride, and it's been a real privilege for me to have these opportunities to come alongside the church in multiple different contexts, as you mentioned, whether it be through the music and providing encouragement and notification through song and challenge as well, whether it be through yours as a stockbroker, and even just how God utilized that, just to develop a theology, if you will, for fundraising and those types of things and engagement and recognize that it's not about the money, it's not. Price owns the cattle on a thousand Hills. Resources are not his concern, but he does recognize that the resources have a stranglehold on our hearts often. And so he desired to utilize that as part of a discipleship process with us. 

But I had an opportunity to, had honestly just marginal familiarity with the work of Open Doors, certainly knew of it by reputation and things in my previous context had opportunities to work in some of these countries where persecution is experienced and known. And we certainly had to operate with some sensitivities there. But as it began to dive in and walk a little bit more closely, I was just humbled to recognize and realize how much our brothers and sisters have to teach us as the church in the West through the power of their testimony and their stories and how transformative that can be. And so that's the way God works. He wove all those different things together and invited me to this opportunity to step into the work of Open Doors. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Now, I grew up, first of all, I grew up in a Christian home and went to Sunday school every week. And I well remember getting a little, was actually in comic book form, story about a guy named Brother Andrew who was taking Bibles into at the time the Soviet Union and other communist countries. And he became a hero for many of us. And that's really, I guess where Open Doors began is with the work of Brother Andrew. Tell us more about him and that- 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, it is. So in this coming year, it'll be 70 years ago really, that this work was launched. And Brother Andrew, a young man from the Netherlands and he was attending Bible college after coming to Christ, and he heard about a communist youth rally taking place in Warsaw. And he's recognizing that, gosh, here we're working so hard just to get handfuls of people to attend a Bible study, but yet there's going to be tens of thousands of youth that are gathered together under the banner of communism. And so he desired to learn a little bit more about that. And so he wrote the organizers and told them he was a Christian and asked if he could attend, and they extended an invite. And as he traveled there, he took that opportunity as well to break away from the pack and go to some of the back roads and engage with some of the churches there. 

And as he met brothers and sisters there and began to recognize their realities and recognize that there were entire congregations without access to the written word of God or with very limited access, perhaps a pastor that might have a New Testament or something along those lines. And so he felt the Holy Spirit convicting him that he needed to be part of the solution there. And so he began to smuggle Bibles behind the Iron Curtain and there was a little blue VW Bug that he was gifted, that he retrofitted. And literally thousands and thousands of Bibles and gospel tracts were taken across, and that really gave birth to this ministry. And so now 70 years, fast-forward, you're working in over 70 countries around the globe, and the context of persecution looks different. It has continued to evolve from 70 years ago in different geographical contexts. The way that persecution is felt and experienced looks much different. 

And so I think that the unifying theme is that what Open Doors seeks to do is to not necessarily try to import a solution, but rather to come alongside and recognize how Christ is at work in his church already, and how do we come alongside and support that. Brother Andrew brought Bibles because that's what they were asking for. In other parts of the world, Christians may have access to the word of God, but they can't read it because they've been denied access to education and illiteracy is 80% or higher in some of these communities. And so we have the ability to come alongside and provide literacy programs in those cases or livelihood programs to allow pastors to stay rooted in the areas that they are because they've been denied any other opportunity for gainful employment to provide for their family. And so we look to come alongside the church and support the church even within those contexts of persecution so they can be the hands and feet of Christ right there. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And I guess I just point out this is more than humanitarian relief in the sense that you're trying to do a good thing to people that are suffering, that the suffering itself is the result of this decision to follow Jesus, and that that's what really, as brothers, they're now our brothers and sisters. And so there's a motive to come alongside brothers and sisters who are suffering. I Corinthians, it says, when one suffers, we all suffer. And you're putting feet on that as I understand it. 

Ryan Brown: 

Absolutely. And as you said at the top of the conversation here in referencing these 13 believers from India and taking a look at their prayer requests, yeah, they obviously pray that they would receive freedom, but by and large, as we come alongside our brothers and sisters, they're not necessarily asking that the persecution end. They're not necessarily even asking that they be removed from persecution, but as those prayer requests [inaudible 00:13:25] very, very good evidence to so many of them are just praying that they will be faithful witnesses to Christ within the context of their persecution, that they recognize that Christ has put them there and allowed them to be there for such a time as this, and they see it as a ministry opportunity. 

Again, it has just humbled me to no end to meet brothers and sisters that as they have been imprisoned, have said that it was an incredible season of ministry, which they found themselves in prison, that outside of the walls of the prison, they were not allowed to share the gospel message of Christ inside the prison. They're already in prison. What else is going to happen? And so they've been free to minister to fellow inmates that are in desperate need of the gospel of Christ. And so again, it is humbling to see so many that the prayer is not that the persecution, and the prayer is not that they'd be removed from it, but that their prayer is how can I be a faithful witness to Christ right here within this persecution? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, and when we talk about this persecution, let me just for you the listener, let me just point out the scale at which we're talking both Open Doors research coupled with Pew Research shows that currently there are about 365 million persecuted Christians around the world. And you put that in context, Pew estimates there's something like 2.4 billion Christians in the world, but of course that's divided up among Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox. And so that's only like 15%. But then you also realize that many who are counted Christians are not necessarily what we would call Christ followers in the sense of discipleship. They're more nominal or it's a cultural thing or whatever, but these folks, obviously they're paying a price like their faith is something they're willing to forego safety or freedom or a job or food or it's a for real thing for them. And through 65 million people, that's a lot of people in the body of Christ. 

Ryan Brown: 

It is. It can be an astronomical number to even try to comprehend how large that number is- 

Bill Hendricks: 

In your research that's just are facing, I think you had three levels of persecution, harsh persecution, severe persecution, and then really, really hostile persecution, something like that. 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, you bring up a great point because there's not necessarily a universally recognized definition for the word persecution. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. 

Ryan Brown: 

And so we will often talk about it even in terms of persecution and discrimination because we recognize that persecution, we characterize it in general terms as it can be a smash or it can be a squeeze. And what I mean by those is a smash is typically what a lot of us tend to think of when we talk about persecution, is that that idea that physical violence or martyrdom or churches being burned, Christian schools or hospitals being destroyed, that type of thing. But yet there's also this idea of a squeeze in which Christians, again are denied access to education. Christians denied access to employment in areas, Christians even within their family structures, being forced into marriages or things like that with a person of a different faith trying to correct them. And all of these things that would seemingly make it very, very difficult to be a Christian within that geographical context. 

That's also a very real manifestation of what persecution looks like, even though it doesn't necessarily fit the description that a lot of us would immediately assume or gravitate towards. So when we look at persecution, we try to look at it more from a holistic lens, looking at both this idea of the smash but also the squeeze of persecution. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I just want to point out too, Open Doors, among others, but Open Doors has done real research and I mean hard research to bring this to the awareness of the West. Every year you put out what you call your World Watch List in which you look at different countries around the world that are experiencing persecution among Christians and literally rank them in terms of a whole variety of factors. And it's a very sobering list to read through. And our listeners, you can go to the Open Doors website and it's easily found there among their list of resources. And what I love about the Watch List is yeah, it's analytics, but you've actually also arranged it in terms of a prayer guide that enables somebody to walk alongside people that are facing persecution. 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, absolutely. That World Watch List will be in its 33rd year of publication, was originally just started as an in-house research tool. If we're going to come alongside the church, we needed to understand how persecution was continuing to evolve or manifest itself in different geographies and different types of contexts. So through our networks, both at times over and more often than not covert, we were able to have access to a lot of data. And so it was about 30-some years ago we realized that, gosh, this could be a good resource for the broader church. And I think it really caught a lot of people by surprise where even people like the State Department or the UN will utilize this research because within that, the broader discussion of freedom and religious belief, it can be difficult at time to get information on specific minority groups. And like you mentioned, Christians are minority groups in so many of these areas around the globe. And so we're thrilled to be able to provide that. 

But again, if it was just an awareness piece, if it was just presentation of data, I think we've really missed an opportunity because hopefully for the church, this awareness it drives us to some kind of an action. And I think that that most appropriate first response is prayer. And so you're absolutely correct that woven throughout that Watch List, there are specific prayer points. And I'll be honest, at times it can be even difficult to know what to pray for in some of these situations. They can be so outside of our context of familiarity and normality that it can be difficult to know what to pray. 

I think for many of us, we would assume that, okay, our first prayer should be that, okay, Christians will be pulled out of the persecution, but again, that's not what they're asking for. And so these specific prayer points are prayer points that are actually originating from those on the ground that are dealing with or experiencing persecution. And so it's one of the things I always like to say, is it gives us the opportunity not just to pray for our brothers and sisters, but to pray with our brothers and sisters because these are the things that they're praying for. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I found the 2024 Watch List to be quite fascinating, just for what it's worth, the top five, North Korea, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea, Yemen, and you've got 50 of them listed. And some of the things on the list, they're no brainers. There's no surprise North Korea is at the top of the list. 26.1 million people that live in North Korea about, 400,000 Christians estimated. So obviously a small minority, but it's so difficult to get information out of Korea is what's exactly going on there. Or I found Somalia number two on the list to be interesting, 7.3 million people and you had it, how many Christians? You said maybe a few hundred. And it just stunned me to think about a country that has virtually no Christians. 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, it is difficult. And just to North Korea, just for some that may not be familiar with all the context there of what that looks like, this is a country where if you're found to be in possession of a Bible that is likely a life sentence for you and your family likely in a work camp facing excruciating labor and that type of thing for the rest of your life. And again, not just for you, but it can be for your entire family as well, just for being in possession of the word of God. These are areas where there can be Christians even in close proximity to each other, but because of the need for secrecy that they don't know there can be Christians- 

Bill Hendricks: 

They can't even talk to each other. 

Ryan Brown: 

... from the same family, yeah, that don't know. It can be so difficult for us to contextualize that I'm a parent, I've got three beautiful kids that looking to raise in awareness and faith and love of Jesus. And you have to recognize that, my goodness, by teaching my kids these things, it can virtually guarantee that my children are going to be taken away from me if it's ever discovered or found out. There's a country that, I can't mention the name, but just I got the report in the last couple of weeks here that a little two-year-old out in the front yard playing and singing a song and the words of the song were something to the effect that Jesus is our Savior. And a neighbor heard that and came out with a machete and ended up taking that to the child, chopped off the child's fingers. The mom heard and from inside the house came running out to protect her child and she was attacked as well. 

But that's the type, whether it be from the official government structures or in cases like Somalia, where it is this idea of familial or cultural in so many places that the faith is so tightly tied to the cultural identity that when somebody of a Muslim or a Hindu background faith comes to faith in Christ, it's seen not just as a change in a belief structure or a change in faith, it's viewed as a rejection of a cultural identity. And therefore it's an incredible cost when somebody comes to faith in so many of these contexts. I always come back to Jesus talking about the pearl of great price. I think many of our brothers and sisters around the globe have a pretty keen understanding of what that scripture really talks about, what that really means to know that, okay, there's something of greater worth that I'm choosing. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, I had mentioned the 13 new converts from India for our listeners, India was number 11 on the list. Others may be interested to know China was down at 19 on the list. What I also found fascinating, obviously living in the United States, is that Mexico itself was down at, is at 37. I wouldn't have expected Mexico to be that high, but you said when you dig into that, it's not because they're heavily Catholic population, but it is not so much government persecution, but gangs, cartels that are engaged in activity against which Christians would speak out or oppose or whatever. And then they pay a price for that. 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah. And also be very geographically concentrated as far as where those instances are most felt and experienced. But yeah, you're absolutely right and the risk of painting with a broad brush, we see that dynamic of what you're talking about in Mexico. You always see it Colombia, we see it in other places in Central America and in South America, the cartels and they see the church as being bad for business, as whether it be pastors speaking out against the drugs or the violence or those types of things, or whether it be pulling youth, potential customers or workers or things into discipleship programs where they're rejecting the ways of the broader culture, that's bad for business. And so many Christian leaders and their families, therefore at times are in the literal cross hairs of these gangs and looking to basically stamp them out because it's bad for business. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Well, when we hear about some of these really desperate situations, you mentioned the little two-year-old that the guy cut off their fingers with the machete or people being thrown into prison. We who are believers in the West, we do throw up our hands going, well, what can we do? It's a country that we have very little, if any access to like a North Korea, just almost impossible to do anything from a human standpoint. What can we do? I would encourage every listener to think about, okay, Open Doors and groups like Open Doors, they have limited access, but they've got at least a little more connections, much of it covert than you or I would have, but we can get behind people like Open Doors with our resources knowing that they're going to translate those into various forms of coming alongside people with education that can't get education or with helping somebody find a means of livelihood because they can't get employment because they're a Christian, things like that. 

But I want to come back, Ryan, to the thing you mentioned earlier, because I think ultimately this is what we're called to do, which is prayer. And I think we forget that prayer is a spiritual category, but that's what makes it so powerful precisely because the situation these fellow believers are in is a spiritual war. The whole thing is ultimately a spiritual conflict. Ephesians six says that our real enemies are not other people. No matter how twisted or different or misguided their worldview might be, they're not the enemy, but we have a cosmic energy, if you will, enemy who is behind so much of this because he hates the church, he hates the bride of Christ. And that being the case, the most powerful thing we have are spiritual weapons. Ephesians six tells us what many of those are. And of course, one of the most potent is prayer. 

And I think about the believers in Acts there where Peter and John get hauled off and they're in prison and it looks like they're going to get executed like Stephen or James or John the Baptist. And so they pray, they got nothing else they can do, but they came alongside their brothers in prayer. And in that case, the Lord delivered those brothers. In other cases, he chose to use other means to glorify himself. And so this prayer guide that you've put together with the World Watch List to me seems like a really valuable tool, but it's only valuable if those of us who have the freedom to do so and the intentionality to do so, make prayer a strategy on behalf of people who cannot have a voice. 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, yeah. You mentioned Brother Andrew earlier, and he once said that our prayers go where we can't. And I think so often we do find ourselves either intentionally or unintentionally slipping into that mindset that prayer is a last resort, and certainly it is something that we should utilize when we are at that place of last resort, but ideally, prayer should be a first response. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Absolutely. 

Ryan Brown: 

That is, like you said, when people of God are attacked because of their faith in God, that is first and foremost a spiritual issue. And our first response should be one, a prayer. Again, like we talked about earlier, God can work any way that he so chooses to do. But amazingly, and I can't explain the mind or heart of God, but he does. He works through the prayers of his people. He talks about that. He calls us to that and he values that. And so prayer is something that we should be our first response as we hear these statistics, as we hear these types of stories that are coming. And I think one of the beautiful things is we do is that increasingly prayer is not just about the circumstances, but prayer also as we lift up these circumstances, prayer is a way of aligning our hearts to the heart of our father, and it changes us and it transforms us. And I've just been so humble to see how much our brothers and sisters who are experiencing persecution have to teach us as the church in the West. 

I don't think any of us argue that we are increasingly living in a post-Christian culture here in the United States. And for so many of us that is such new territory, but yet we have a savior that's called us to go and to make disciples. But yet so many of us have slipped into this place where rather than discipling our culture, we've become discipled by our culture. And as a result, as we approach our engagement in church, as we even the truth of scripture, so often we find ourselves engaging more so as consumers rather than as disciples. 

And in the midst of that context that we increasingly find ourselves living in, we've got brothers and sisters around the globe who have at great cost or are walking out this choice that they're going to utilize their faith to determine how they will respond to their culture rather than using their culture to determine how they're going to engage with their faith. And so that is, I think a testimony and a story that our brothers and sisters around the globe as we come to that collective table, as the body of Christ, that is something that they bring to this table, that they have to offer us and something that they have to teach us that we would be wise to listen and learn from. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's very, very powerful. They do have an awesome amount to teach us, not with eloquent words and arguments, but with the currency of their very lives and how they're living their lives, showing really what it means to follow Jesus. 

Ryan Brown: 

These stories have power too. I go to Revelations 12 and talks about the dragon, the devil as he's overcome, he's overcome by the blood of the lamb and the testimony of the saints and those testimony of the saints, the power of God is at work in those. And that's what these stories are. Their testimonies of God's faithfulness, their testimonies of God's goodness, their testimonies of God at work in the midst of some of these circumstances that time are just really, really tough for us to process. We can say all the time that God is good, but I'll tell you what, and I don't mean to trivialize that or diminish that in any way, shape or form, but as I hear those same words coming from the lips of an individual that is experiencing intense persecution because of that faith in Christ, to say that God is good in this, even in this, that's powerful. There's a testimony in that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Absolutely. I must ask in that context. I've certainly been in these circumstances occasionally. I'm sure you've been in them much more than I. You're in a situation with a fellow believer from a different culture and they're really in a rough, rough place. It could be through poverty, it could be through persecution, it could be through suffering of some other sort. And you're there and your hearts are knit together because you're brother and sister in Christ. And so you do what you can to encourage, to pray, to give them what you got as best you can. And then there's always this realization in the back of your mind, yeah, but tomorrow I'm going home and they're still here. I'm just curious as somebody who's in this world just constantly, how do you find yourself dealing with that? 

Ryan Brown: 

Yeah, because it could be a very natural tendency for us as we hear these stories and recognize the comfort that we live in, to have the first response be just the guilt and shame in that. I think that that's a twisting of an appropriate response. Paul talks about that the God of all comfort has extended us comfort, and I think so often we live as if he's extended his comfort so that we can be comfortable, but that's not the case. He's extended us comfort so that we can in turn extend his comfort to others. And I go back and often think of when I was a kid growing up and whether it be Sunday dinners or Thanksgiving, my grandparents had this, honestly probably a dining room table. It was too big for the room that it was in. 

And so when we sat down as a family to eat, you were committed. You weren't getting up during the meal to go to the bathroom. So as young kids, you had to make sure you go before because you were there all dinner. But because of that, when my grandmother would come from the kitchen and bring these dishes, they're always placed at one end of the table. But it was never assumed by anyone at the table that that was just so that they could eat. It was assumed that that would be passed around the table and we'd all share and we'd all participate in that. And I've equated that in my mind to this idea of these comforts that we've been extended, that the God of all comfort has extended his comfort, but it's not just for our comfort. It's not just for our end of the table, it's so that we can in turn be a blessing and a comfort to everyone there at the table. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It occurs to me, we're talking about Christians globally, but that includes where we live. And I'm thinking we all probably have perhaps at our church or at our workplace, we're in touch with people who are Christ followers and they're actually living with forms of persecution. I think for instance, of a woman who has come to faith and her husband is just beside himself, not because he understands what she's really committed herself to, really has very little interest in religious things, but there's something about her. She's too nice now. She's too holy. And so he beats her, he punishes her, he's mean to her, or a believer that we know in a workplace where they're like the one Christian and everybody else is like pulls practical jokes on them, belittles them, makes fun of their religion, this type of thing. And it's not life and death persecution, but it's like you say, that squeeze that. There's just that pressure. What could we do to help that person that we know? 

Ryan Brown: 

I think at one level, all of us will increasingly experience those types of things. The kingdom of Christ is counter-cultural to the world in which we live in. It rubs up against each other. And so the scriptures go so far as to say you will experience persecution. And so in all of these situations, whether they are dramatic or minorly felt, I think that one of the things that we can do is to recognize that Christ has called us into that as an identification first and foremost with who he is, with the sufferings that our Lord experienced as the full representation of his love and also his identity. This was an expression of who he was. And so again, it flies. So in the culture of what we so often look up and to the right as far as what we experience or what we feel. I said up and to the right, but pointed to my left, up and to the right, that again, the kingdom of this world is contrary to the kingdom of Christ. 

And so as we identify in those persecutions, first and foremost helps us identify with Christ. Second, I think it helps us to have a greater appreciation and understanding in a greater identification with our body as the scripture you mentioned earlier, when one part of the body suffers, we all suffer. Paul talks about these things as horrific as they are in the scale of eternity, they're going to seem like light and momentarily momentary afflictions, but yet these light and momentary afflictions are working within us in eternal glory that as we're being renewed into his image. And so that's how Christ can, it almost certainly audacious if not at times by our measures, the reason would seem foolish, but for Christ to say blessed are the persecuted. The blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake. 

That flies in the face of our culture. And I think that many of us have a tough time understanding and truly believing that to be the case. But yet Christ says that these things are working in eternal purpose and eternal glory that we may not ever see that return on that in this lifetime, but in the frame of eternity, one, we'll look and say lighted momentary, but two, we will look in the face of our Savior and say, this was good. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's powerful. Well, and maybe that's why in so many of the passages in the New Testament where persecution is found and talked about, the prayer is not, Lord, relieve our suffering. Take us out of this. The prayer is, Lord, give us boldness, give us courage. Allow us to be a witness. Allow us to bring glory to you. And of course, Stephen's ultimate prayer, Lord, forgive them because they don't know what they're doing, which is the prayer Jesus had prayed. And it's really a prayer of thy will be done, not my will be done. And yes, humanly, we don't want to see people suffer, but as you say, God's got something else going. 

And so when we don't know what to pray, there's some things right there that God has already given us we can pray. We also can take it to the bank that the Holy Spirit is praying with groanings too deep for words. So even when we're out of words and we just don't know the right thing, it's okay. We bring that to the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit translates our prayers into the prayers that we know the Father then hears. And Jesus Christ himself is also praying with us and for us, and for those- 

Ryan Brown: 

Absolutely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

... pray for. So we've got the Trinity itself engaging with us in these prayers. So we don't see it humanly, but as I say, it's a spiritual power that there's nothing equal to it. 

Ryan Brown: 

Absolutely. And every once in a while, God does give us glimpses of the ways that he is working, and we're thankful for those. And like you said, at times we pray and the brother and sister is released from prison. Other times they're not. Sometimes they are placed in a situation where they're no longer under the same level of threat that they were before. Other times they actually lay down their life. But through all of those things, like you said, God's spirit and God's purpose and plan is at work, and he's working a redemptive story and weaving threads of those redemption in ways that often these eyes, this side of eternity won't be able to see. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, Ryan, this has been a very, at the same time, both sobering conversation and at the same time, I guess I would call it a joyful conversation in the sense that we do see that suffering is not in vain, that the persecution, as much as we don't like it and don't want it, it's nonetheless God's using it both to glorify himself and to refine his people. And I want to thank you for being part of The Table Podcast today to tell us more about this. 

Ryan Brown: 

Oh, well, the privilege is mine. I want to thank you for the opportunity to engage in these conversations because so often these conversations aren't happening and we don't always have an awareness of what is going on. I think one of the tools of the enemy as he looks to nullify the church like we talked about earlier, is certainly that idea of persecution. But at other times, it is comfort. Other times, it is just to lavish us in comfort to where we become so preoccupied with self that we are more concerned about our choice on the color of the carpet in the church lobby than we are about the eternal souls of our neighbors or brothers and sisters around the globe. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I just want to end by pointing out what I learned in preparing for our conversation, Ryan. Every day listener, you and I are going to make choices about things like what we're going to wear to work or what we're going to have for dinner, or what we're going to put on our schedule, or what brand of gasoline we're going to buy, or what brand of coffee are we going to get and what shoes are we going to buy. And of course, all these choices have a certain cost to them. But as we do that every day around the world, millions of people make decisions to follow Jesus. And for many of those people, it's their first decision to follow Jesus. And that decision comes with a cost as well. Jesus says, to follow me, there's a cost to that. And that cost for many can be quite high, even to the point of their well-being and life and their death. 

And when I have this conversation with Ryan, I guess I'm left with a couple of questions that I'd encourage you to ask yourself. One is, what is the cost that Jesus is asking me to pay in order to follow him? And then the second question is, how is Jesus asking me to stand with my brothers and sisters who are paying a whole lot more than I am to follow Jesus? Sobering questions. Very, very profound and worth asking. I want to thank you for being with us today on The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture. If you found this podcast to be helpful, we would encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcasting service. Give us a rating of any sort, and tell your friends about The Table Podcast. For The Table, I'm Bill Hendricks. We will see you next time.