On Podcasting

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to demonstrate the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary, and today, I'm excited to welcome you because our topic is podcasting. So this conversation will be a little bit meta that we're listening to a podcast on podcasting. So bear with us, but we discuss issues with God and culture—this is a cultural phenomenon that's worth addressing. So something that didn't even exist 20 years ago is now a billion dollar industry. That's billion with a B. I just learned that apparently 42% of Americans over the age of 11 have listened to a podcast in the last month. So this is a growing phenomenon. And a decade ago, it was only 12%. So this has gone from 12% to 42% of people, and that's only that have listened recently. 

The topics run the gamut. People are listening to true crime, news, entertainment, sports, relationships, self-help things, and of course religion and spirituality. So maybe you're listening and you've thought of starting your own podcast, or obviously you're listening to one right now. So how can Christians best engage with this platform today? We want to help you reflect thoughtfully on podcasting and how God might use it. So we're joined by two expert guests. Rebecca Carrell is the director of apprenticeships and special projects for the Media Arts and Worship department here at DTS. Rebecca, thanks for being here. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

I'm honored you asked me. Thank You 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, I'm excited. We also have Dr. Ryan Holmes. Ryan is our executive director for media production at DTS. Thanks for being here. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Thanks for having me. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, should be a good conversation. Each of these guests represents a number of dimensions of the podcasting world. So I guess I'll start with you, Ryan, just what is your experience in podcasting? 

Ryan Holmes: 

So I go way back with this podcast specifically. This podcast started I think in 2012, and so I have been a part of helping to produce this podcast ever since Darrell Bock initially kind of got it going off the ground. So my history with this is very specific, so it's strange to be on this side of all the equipment. Normally I'm in the dark room where you can't see me, so it's a real privilege to be here though. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, thanks. And then are there any other dimensions of podcasting in your experience that you want to highlight? 

Ryan Holmes: 

Sure. So for a while I had with a couple of friends, we had our own podcast called We Talk Different, and that dealt with issues of race, faith, culture, and we would sit down every week and talk through mostly current event issues. So it's a bit different from what the table does, but it tackled primarily those types of things. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

I was a fan of that show. Oh, 

Ryan Holmes: 

Were you? 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And I did not know you were that Ryan. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Yes. Oh, so there you go. We've made a connection then. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Yes, we have. 

Ryan Holmes: 

That was me. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's awesome. Yeah, so very cool. You've been on a lot of different of this. 

Ryan Holmes: 

So I've helped plan and produce them. I've helped do the technical equipment that we all are sitting in front of. And then I've also done the hosting and guest scheduling and interviewing part of it. So yeah, I've had my hand in a little bit of all of that stuff. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, for sure. Thanks for this, by the way. 

Ryan Holmes: 

You're welcome. 

Kasey Olander: 

How about you, Rebecca? What's your experience with podcasting? 

Rebecca Carrell: 

I'm kind of a dinosaur in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in that I've been in broadcasting since 1998. So initially that was radio. And then in 2007 while I was still on a radio station, we started podcasting our on air segments. And then in 2019 at a different radio station, I launched a podcast called Honest Conversations with another DTS grad. And then when I left the radio station in 2021 to make the move over here to Dallas Seminary, I essentially kept the same format. It was the same show, but we changed our title and our branding. So I've been podcasting in an in-depth interview format for about five years. 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay, that's awesome. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And I've played every role and still play every role. I mean, since I was the one that came with the broadcast experience, I host it and I do the booking and I do the audio engineering. And so I'm the one wearing most of the hats. 

Kasey Olander: 

A lot of the things like the details that people don't always think about when they're listening, 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Right. 

Ryan Holmes: 

There's a lot of logistics that go into even just this podcast, specifically the table from scheduling people to how you prep for that interview, interviewing them, and then even on the backend of how it gets approved and published somewhere. So yeah, if you give your hat into all those things, that's a lot of hats to wear a lot of times. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

It could be easily a 

Ryan Holmes: 

Full time job? 

Rebecca Carrell: 

You know what I was about to say, a part-time job. But no, it could be a full-time job. If I could put more into it. If I had the capacity, I would, but I don't right now. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, that's understandable. All of us are just limited human beings. So speaking of being human beings, 

Ryan Holmes: 

Nice segue. Nice. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes. What do you think is it about podcasting as a medium that makes it so popular? Does it say something about the way that we're designed, the way that God created us? I guess, Rebecca, I'll start with you. What is it about podcasting? 

Rebecca Carrell: 

I think first of all, it's that it's content on demand and it's content on the go. And right now, the thing that I think is probably most prized in our Western culture is efficiency and immediacy and podcasting offers that you can learn about something new while you are driving to and from work while you're working out while you're walking the dog. And so I think that I would say the primary thing is we are an on-demand culture, and we really love not having to wait until every Thursday night. I mean back when must see tv, whatever. So we really love being able to binge something, being able to listen to 10 episodes in a row or pick and choose from a wide variety of topics and shows. And so I think it really scratches that itch. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes. On demand and on the go for sure. 

Ryan Holmes: 

It, I mean, kind of what you're saying too, as a medium, I think it can provide a potential for community. We talked about this I think before we got recording, which we circle back to what you talked about in that because a two-sided to that, it can create room for connections and community around a shared specific topic. So for this one, issues of God and culture, if you're concerned about that or you want to learn about that, this is a good place to do that. But then it also creates, like you said, a fracturing of knowledge and how you have a shared reality. But at least on the positive side, you can definitely get into specific niches. I think you listed true crime, which I know people have binged all of those things. There's ones that investigate MLMs, and then there's just the generic broadcast ones that are a broadcast television show being podcasted after the fact. So on demand, I can catch up with my ESPN news really easily in the morning. I wasn't available at 6:00 PM last night. So it allows you to have a shared sense of community around a given topic, but it can also fracture as well, which I think you talked about before. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

One of the things that I like to say is that increasingly more and more we're living in an area of hyperconnected disconnect. And so what I mean by that is more and more and more we are connected to each other on a global scale, but what that's doing is it's causing this fracturing in the local community. Here's an example. I remember when Survivor first came out love or hate the show, it was the first to really capture the reality show imagination. And so everyone talked about Survivor the next day after the episode, and there was shared incarnatiolal community because you talked about it with your friends. Well, I probably listened to six podcasts regularly, and I don't know that I know anybody who is listening that listens to the same. And so while I do have this potential for community around those shows, it's online community, I will probably never meet them unless the host shows up at a live event and does a live recording. 

Right? And so while it is great for things like immediacy and efficiency and on demand, and you get to learn about whatever you want to learn whenever you want to learn it, or your favorite sports morning show, you didn't get to hear it that morning. So you get to catch up later in the day. You lose, pardon me, you lose a little bit of that gathering around the water cooler aspect of having a shared experience. And so I think podcasting and YouTube, these are things that have led to more individual experiences, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing as long as we're not sacrificing the best thing, which is we are incarnationalal people meant together around things together and have communal experiences. 

Kasey Olander: 

Because if I go to a podcast instead of going to my neighbor or going to my friend or my family, then I've lost something that's part of being human. Even if you go to those in-person meetups for fans of a podcast or a live recording that's still just we're convening for this one event and we're not actually living life together and sharing the deep things about us, most of the time 

Rebecca Carrell: 

It's still an individual experience because you're there and you might meet a few nice people, but you're probably not going to keep in touch and they probably don't live in your neighborhood. So yeah, it's just fewer communal experiences, even communal listening or viewing experiences and more individualization, which again, doesn't have to be a bad thing so long as the best thing's not sacrificed. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's interesting. Do you think that there's a danger of people feeling like they're, oh, I'm not giving that up because I'm chatting with these people online or yeah. Do you think that there's a danger in people mistaking what community really is? 

Rebecca Carrell: 

That's where the hyperconnected disconnect comes into play, I think because these are connections. They're not deep connections, they're not incarnational connections. They are online connections, which to an extent do provide some of the things that Friendship does, but only to an extent. And it can never substitute for a flesh and blood relationship where you're showing up for each other when you're sick or celebrating each other's wins, mourning each other's losses. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Yeah, I mean definitely when we were doing, we Talk different, there was a component where it's very one way. So you're talking into a microphone or a camera, and then people listen. But whoever's listening, those folks get to know you on a certain level in a way that when they do meet you in person, there's almost a familiarity there on their behalf because they've been listening to you for possibly months or years if however long your show runs. So people would approach us at live events and they would want to jump into very deep topics right after saying hello because they've listened to you for months and years and they know how you think. But for me, I'm just like, I just met you. I don't know you from anybody else, but there's a very one way component where you're talking to this mic, but people do make that connection. And there is a sense of community, but it can be a bit jolting when you do hit the incarnational phase of like, I don't know you that this well, but you try to switch into like, okay, you want to have that conversation, let's think through it. But there's not an established trust there yet. And if you maybe get to know them, maybe that could happen. But to your point, you often don't. 

Kasey Olander: 

And I love that you highlighted that because that's so different than how we consume other things like television. I don't expect to go in, if I meet an actor, meet 

Ryan Holmes: 

An actor 

Kasey Olander: 

And talk about their personal life right away, 

Ryan Holmes: 

Which I think that's one of the powers of this medium specifically because I don't know how y'all listen to podcasts, but I do it while I'm cleaning the house, doing dishes if I'm working out. So I put my earbuds directly in my ears and I feel like Rebecca's voice is like it's right next to me and I'm sitting next to her and she's just talking to me the whole time. So I feel like, oh, I know Rebecca. This is my friend. So when I see Rebecca I'm like, Hey, so you said this and this, and then Rebecca's like, I just met you. But it is a very personal medium in a way that I don't think other things are like tv. There's that screen, there's a barrier. Even radio broadcasting has a professional component where you're like, okay, I know Rebecca's on here doing this broadcast as this person, this is her job. But when she does her actual podcast, I'm like, this is a more unfiltered, this is Rebecca being Rebecca, and I feel like I'm getting to know some part of her. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

So that you've just tapped into one of the biggest differences between podcasting as a medium and television or radio, and that's broadcasting versus narrow casting and podcasting. You said it's more of a personal experience. I would even call it an intimate experience. And when I coach people in podcasting, I tell them, we've laughed about this. Kasey, you say you because you really are right now we're talking to you. I'm talking to you as you're listening, I am talking to you. And yes, there's a lot of you, there's a lot of us to the one who is sitting there to you as you're sitting there with your headphones in, you're the only one. And so it is an intimate experience and there's is also an imbalance of relational capital. Correct. When I do share, and I do on my own podcast share, I go deep into some of the struggles that I've faced and our guests are very vulnerable and authentic. 

And so when I'm listening to someone sharing like that, they have established some relational capital with me, but they don't have that of me. So when I come up and I want to share my things, it does Ryan, just like you, said's a bit to jolting. It is jolting. And it's just something that podcasters and television personalities, YouTubers you do need to keep in mind is that when you are developing and cultivating and growing an audience, you are sharing a piece of yourself with them. And in any other incarnational relationship, the next proper thing is you would share a piece of yourself. 

Ryan Holmes: 

There'd be reciprocation. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And so really we shouldn't be surprised when people come up and they're like, yeah, when you said that it made me say this, but it is because, 

Ryan Holmes: 

But that's the human connection part, right? So mainly the image of God, we long for connections and to know other people and to be known. So podcasting does allow whoever's on this side of the mic to be known, but whoever you that's listening, we don't necessarily know who that person is. And so it becomes a bit disorienting sometimes when you do talk in person. But I do think that's one of the powers of this medium specifically to connect with people in a way that is intimate. And it does validate some, because some of the stuff that you share probably on your podcast that's very vulnerable and open, and then that may be stuff that you talk about often, but for the you that's listening, they're thinking, oh my gosh, I've gone through that. I've experienced that. I know people who've done that, 

Kasey Olander: 

And maybe I've never shared that with anyone, but the fact that Rebecca 

Ryan Holmes: 

Has, but the fact that Rebecca is opening that door and is talking about it, that's powerful. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Right? Right. And too, if you think about it, people listen to radio differently than they listen to podcasts because radio, it's broadcasting. The announcers know they're hitting an audience of scattering broad seed, and people tend to listen to the radio together in the car. You're all listening to it together. That's a good point. You've agreed upon the format, and so you just sort of handle it differently when people have you on, but they're probably not paying close attention. But with podcasting, people are listening to hear what you have to say. So there's a big difference in delivery. 

Ryan Holmes: 

That's a really good point. Thinking of the times where I might just plug my phone into my car, so it is being broadcast in my car as a whole. So there is listening, but I often don't listen to podcasts with, if Kasey and you and I we're all going somewhere to eat, I don't just turn a podcast on. So it is a very just me experience where it's usually in my earbuds only, but a radio we'll all listen to whatever the radio station is collectively. Sure. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And it sort of serves as background as opposed 

Ryan Holmes: 

To you tune and tune out. Right. But a podcast I want to hear what is Rebecca talking about? What is this topic? And yeah, that's a very intimate connection. It 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Is it. 

Kasey Olander: 

So then as let's say, let's say you're listening and you want to start a podcast or you're already hosting one and you're like, oh, this is good to know. What advice would you have for people as Christians to steward? Well, this medium for creators, 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Do you want me to start for it? Yeah. Okay. The very first thing I have people do is I have them really meditate on why they want to do it. Because podcasting right now is the new blog. And so a lot of people are podcasting because they feel like everybody is podcasting, and so they should be podcasting. And that's really not a good reason to podcast 

Kasey Olander: 

Or do anything right or to do anthing 

Rebecca Carrell: 

To do anything. And so I say really think about it because it's a tremendous amount of work. And if you're going to have a successful podcast, then it's probably more time and money and work than you initially expected. And so know what you're signing up for, but then also know exactly who you're talking to and don't aim for the world because if you aim for the world and if your goal right out of this shoot is 50,000 listeners per episode, you're going to be very disappointed unless you are part of the 0.03% 

Ryan Holmes: 

Or you're already launching off of a platform that has an established base to it. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Most of us aren't, don't do that. When we start a podcast, I would probably speak directly to the women's ministry director, to the pastor who wants to know if this is a good way that they can steward the content they're already managing. And I would say yes, but know exactly who you're talking to and don't shy away from a local podcast. Sure. I have decided that my podcast is meant for the Dallas-Fort Worth area woman who is probably working at least part-time, and she's busy and she wants her Christian content and she just doesn't have time to sit down and read all the books she wants to read. And I'm speaking exactly to her. Now, my audience is broader than that, but I have her in my cross hairs and I know her age and I know what she's into. And so everything I'm talking about is filtered through that local funnel. 

And so pastor, women's ministry director, do this for the people you're already shepherding and then be very, very satisfied with that. And if your audience goes broader than that and it might, then that's just sort of the cherry on top of the cake. But what happens when we want massive numbers overnight is that just tends to not happen very often, perhaps rarely. So have a good definition of success, and if you're reaching the people you're already shepherding and if you are supplementing what they're already getting from you or from the church service or from the Bible study, that is a tremendous success in my mind, and that's a really good reason to do a podcast. And then if the Lord wants to take it bigger than that, he will. Yeah, 

Ryan Holmes: 

Sure. Well, that was all my points. Thanks. But going back, I think what you described, I can tell your radio background, you have a very specific person in mind. So we talk a lot about demographics and audience. And so what you're describing is this is the particular person that I have in mind, or maybe a small group of people. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

She's my you. 

Ryan Holmes: 

You're right. And then oftentimes that also comes with an age range. It can come with income levels depending on how specific you're getting in a given broadcast space. But if you have that as a target, that's a good starting point to say we're going to generally try to structure episodes that would target this person's interest set. I think when we did our podcast, ours was probably a bit broader because of the topic that we were tackling, which was race and gender in society, and then we had a cross section of people on the podcast that were the primary hosts, which then created more prongs of being able to plug into different listeners. So as a white man, I hit a certain part of the demographic. We have a black woman who was on there. We had an African male who was on there. So there was a lot of different components of people who would want to listen to hear a given spot. But I think what you talked about as an audience is important to start out with in mind. And then having a definition of success, like you talked about that you're not going to start off with 10,000. I think when we got to the height of even what I did, we were only around four or 5,000 downloads a week, 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Which by the way is fantastic, 

Ryan Holmes: 

Right? It is. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

That's fantastic. 

Ryan Holmes: 

I say only because, yeah, that's a lot, but that it's not a lot. At the same time when you're comparing it to other huge platforms, like you talked about the 0.03% that has tens of thousands or millions of narrow loads. But I think in order to even hit those numbers, the biggest note I would want to add is consistency. Yes. So that you, you're doing this, what the table does is it's relatively week in and week out. It's maybe not 52 weeks a year, but whatever you're doing, if you're doing seasons, and that's a 10 or 12 week run, or it is an all year thing where you're doing 46 or 48 weeks that you do show up every week at about the same time. So the table podcast releases, I believe on Tuesdays if I'm correct. Okay, that's good because I've been doing this for a while. You 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Noticed you picked up on that, 

Ryan Holmes: 

But it comes out consistently. So if Rebecca's a subscriber, she would know, oh, hey, it's Tuesday. I can go check my feed and there's going to likely be a new episode that I can then listen to. But if you only show up once every other month, or sometimes it's Wednesdays, other times it's Fridays, it's hard people to find that rhythm because like you said, that specific you, they're busy and they've got a lot of things that are vying for their attention. And if you want to try to cut through some of that noise and static, you need to be a reliable voice that's always shows up at about the same time whether or not they listen, that's on them. But if you're always there at least at the door where they can say, oh yeah, that's a good topic. Let's open the door and let's listen to that one. But you have to be consistent and show up over and over again. And it is a lot of work. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And the algorithms will love you if you're consistent. And if you're a hundred consistent, the algorithms pretend you don't exist. So the almighty algorithms actually, we hate them, but we need them. 

Ryan Holmes: 

But that is what drives traffic a lot of times to how you get. And then word of mouth spreads and then people leaving ratings and reviews. So if you like the Table podcast, thank you. Please leave a rating review. But it does help because it does promote it then within the system that it's in, if it's on Spotify or it's on iTunes or it's in Google Play Store, we're all places that you can get the table podcast. But if you drive people to those spots and even within your own marketing or discussion of it, we would always highlight where you can go find it. Because that way they can tell people, oh, well, yeah, it's on Spotify, so if you want to go check it out, just type in whatever their name of the podcast is and it should show up. So being readily available and then submitting your stuff to all these different platforms, it's helpful, but you got to be consistent, you to show up over and over again. And there's a lot of times when you'd just rather stay in bed 

Rebecca Carrell: 

because 

Ryan Holmes: 

It's a lot of work. 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, let's go that direction now that you brought it up, Ryan, what all is involved in creating a podcast? We know it's a lot of work, and I mean, we are intimately involved with the process and know it's a lot of work. But I guess, so for example, I went to the Sundance Film Festival and it was really cool because I got to hear interviews with a lot of filmmakers and it just enlightened so many things that I didn't realize. I grew so much of an appreciation for filmmaking in a way that I didn't before. So Ryan, give us that appreciation. What I might go into a podcast that people don't really know about. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Well, definitely starting where Rebecca talked about. So starting with your audience. So if you are approaching this, think of who's you that you want to talk to, and then we don't want to get mired in the technology discussion, but if you are watching this podcast, so this podcast has a video component that adds a whole other layer of complexity. And I generally would not recommend doing video. This works in a corporate environment because what the table does has a whole department of support staff that support that component. Thanks guys. Thanks to all the folks behind the scenes. But if you're just starting out, just doing audio only is 100% sufficient and fantastic. And there are inexpensive mics where you're just talking a hundred, $200, which that can be a lot of money for some folks, but if you want to do this, that's that's a good entry point that will give you good quality, you can get decent recorders. 

And then as you grow, if you get into having subscribers or people who support your podcast, then you can move up to better equipment. But I would say an audience narrowing down the technology and the format that you want. So if it's like this one's all in person, but I know this podcast also has the components where we bring in people over zoom, that's a different layer of complexity, but there are a lot of platforms now where you can record in the cloud. So your voice is technically being recorded in a high quality format. So is your guest who's all connecting just via the internet through this particular website. And then you can process all that audio and put out a very high quality sounding, broadcast sounding podcast. Yeah, go for it. I 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Would echo what you said, but also to lend some credibility to audio versus video. I think video is great if you can do it, but I also think if you can't do something with excellence, you serve yourself better to not do it than to put out a subpar product. And I would say that with the audio product as well, I checked this morning and it looks as though 87% of people are listening to podcasts while they're doing something else. Now, I've seen studies, and I did my own little research project on this a year and a half ago, and my number was 91%, and I've also heard others say 91%. And so if that is the case that 87 to 91% of people are listening to podcasts while they're doing something else that should direct you as to where the lion's share of your time and energy should go, hundred percent. 

I simply don't have the capacity to cater to, and I'm sorry if you're one of the people who love the video, I don't have the time or capacity to cater to that. I just don't. And so I would much rather take my time, put out an excellent audio product, and I think I do. Our audio quality is excellent. I'm a meticulous editor, and so I'm very proud of the, just in a technical sense, I'm proud of the product we put out. And I would rather do one thing with excellence than a couple things with mediocrity, because here's what I can promise you, if you are producing a poor quality podcast, nothing drives listeners away faster. A hundred percent. You will get your parents and your best friends listen a couple times, listen a couple times, but then they're going to drop off. This is bad, right? So I think quality needs to be right up at the top of your list of things that you focus on 

Ryan Holmes: 

A hundred percent. And I would add that the department that I work in is where media production, so we traffic heavily in video and video is its whole own language. So if your podcast is served by adding that language to what you're doing, it can be really beneficial if you're going to show graphics or there's something that the video enhances, which moves it kind of from a podcast into more like vid casting and vlogging, which is technically a whole other part of the world that we're not covering. So I don't think video adds a lot often to most podcasts because even radio shows will video. So you can watch the recording of whatever it is, whatever channel you watch because everybody live streams it, so it's easy to see, but there's not much is being added when I watch the Rebecca Carrell radio show. But you might just have it on in the background at your computer, and that's how you can access that content. But it's just in a tab that's open, but your email's in front of that and your calendar's in front of that, and so you're still listening. You're just listening. So the audio quality becomes the primary driver. And then video is really a supplement. If you're going to add to me some sort of graphic or some element that is that language that helps express what's going on, 

Kasey Olander: 

Those are really helpful principles for different areas of ministry too, that you want to pursue things with excellence rather than overtaxing and spreading yourself too thin or spreading your team too thin. You want to do things that you're actually able to do. Well, I mean, it's a sense of stewardship. I don't want to sound too corporate about it for business, but it's, I mean, a sense of using resources wisely. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Yes. And I feel so strongly about this. I'm glad you brought that up, because also the more mediums we try to get ourselves out on, none of it's negative. It's all good. And it's wonderful to give as many people possible access to good content. However, pastor, there's a but yeah, and women's ministry leader, you're not called to shepherd the world. You're called to shepherd your flock. And so I would so much rather see you steward them well, you worry about giving them the best resources possible, and you probably aren't going to be able to juggle too many of those balls at the same time if you are in local ministry, and truly that is where your heart needs to be with your local people. They're the ones who need you. And we're called to incarnational ministry. And so I think it's wonderful to have multiple formats of resources available, but I think our first and primary concern needs to be to the people God is placed around us and so worry primarily about what is going to minister most to them. 

Kasey Olander: 

And it can be cool because podcasting can be a way to, like you said earlier, Rebecca, strengthen relationships with people that you actually know in real life. And hopefully, I think one of my hopes would be that if they listened to an episode and they're like, wow, that person was really vulnerable. They were really willing to share the then call to action would not be, I can start my own podcast and do that, but rather I can share vulnerably and have real community with people. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Go ahead. And I think podcasts can sometimes be a catalyst to help have that conversation because I can take your podcast or Rebecca's podcast and I can then share it with someone and say, Hey, check this out. And then maybe after you listen to it, maybe we can talk more. And it becomes an entryway where Rebecca just often is the platform to then stand on to say, Hey, so she shared that. I know I've experienced that too. Do you want to talk about that episode and our own experiences with what she shared? It can create a doorway to have deeper conversations and hopefully connections within that community that you're describing, Rebecca. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Totally. The hope that it would spark organic conversations with the people face to face, not your Facebook friends. Right. 

Kasey Olander: 

There's a girl that I was discipling one time and she was asking me a theological question and I was like, here's a podcast episode that would address that, and then you and I can talk about it after you listen to it. And it's funny because afterwards she came back and she was like, it was really encouraging that they were struggling through this issue too. These are theologians and they're professionals, and yet I got to overhear a dialogue that they're having as they're processing and wrestling. It wasn't just, oh, that theologians have all the answers 

Ryan Holmes: 

Come to hear the sage on the stage. Exactly. Yeah. I think when we had our podcast too, we would share stories like that, and both of my cohosts, they would often when people would want to meet with them to talk about a specific issue on race, they would share, Hey, listen to this previous episode or read this book first, and then if you get through that, then we'll spend some of the time to do that because there's an emotional labor that is going to go into having those conversations with people, even if you know them well. So you want to say like, Hey, let's make sure that you have some commitment to the level of work, emotional vulnerability, some of the nuance of the conversation before we actually sit down. I don't want to sit there and have to do all of the lifting of this given topic as a black woman, as a black man, I want you to have some skin in the game thinking through this before we actually sit down. And podcasts became a really good way to say, Hey, check this one out and see how that strikes you. And then maybe you're upset or maybe you're like, you want more, but then we can talk about that because now you've framed some of the conversation before we sit down. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

That's how I was introduced to your podcast, really and truly, I wanted to have a conversation with someone. She asked me if I would listen to an episode first. I did fantastic. And then I listened to all of the episodes. 

Ryan Holmes: 

We were definitely bingeable. I will say that 

Rebecca Carrell: 

I loved it. I loved it. And then we had a conversation and I was so grateful that she had pointed me in your direction because then I was prepared to have the discussion. 

Kasey Olander: 

It's not passing the buck like, ah, these people are going to disciple you instead. Not at all. It's coming alongside. 

Ryan Holmes: 

And I think at least in my experience, when we were doing that, I think one of the things that made what we did special was that all of us had prior friendship connections. So it wasn't a corporate environment. So we weren't paid to be there. We were doing it out of the literal love of our heart to talk about this. But we used to all work together. And when we would have lunches and whatever you're sitting in the conference room, we would have those conversations. And then at some point they said, Hey, we should record this. And I was like, that's a terrible idea. 

As a white man, I can say that. I think that's one of the worst ideas possible. But they kept at it. And then that friendship though, I think came out because it was an organic thing. It often allowed me specifically to be a person that I didn't know a lot of the time, but I could ask questions, which is representative also of the you that we were targeting people who want to have this conversation, but they're afraid and they don't know how to enter in. But that friendship really created a base to start with. That was, at least for us, unique. It wasn't a corporate environment, but I know I think Rebecca, on the podcast you have currently, I think that's like you guys have a good friendship, so that also can then become a, 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Oh, best friends. 

Ryan Holmes: 

But that comes out then as an organic part where you guys can joke and you can get into topics that you and I probably wouldn't because we know each other, but we don't know each other that 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Way on that level. 

Ryan Holmes: 

So at least for us on our podcast, we all had a very deep connection initially. So that friendship, I think it permeated what you were hearing 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And it bore the weight to the heaviness of the topics. 

Ryan Holmes: 

And it made it more intimate too, because it is a heavy topic. And then yeah, you're sharing trauma and struggling through what's happening culturally, but you have friendship through that. That is a very different thing. So really our goal for our podcast was to have what we normally had as a conversation, but put a mic in front of us. So whoever listened to it, we didn't have as specific an audience as what Rebecca described earlier. We probably should have, I want to ask thinking back through it, I was like, 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Actually, but it was a fabulous podcast. It served its purpose. And these are all things, when we give these guidelines, they're just guidelines. A hundred percent. If you have great chemistry with two of your friends and you talk about meaty topics and you want to launch a podcast, launch a podcast. But there are some things that I can say after having been in broadcasting for 25 years here are say it some tried and true tricks that are generally going to work well for you. But if you don't want to do that, the beauty of a podcast is it absolutely is something you can do in your basement on your terms, your rules, your topics, and then distribute it to whoever wants to listen to it. Right. 

Ryan Holmes: 

And it's probably fair also to say that whatever topic you do engage, that's not a consequence free conversation. So I don't want to discourage anybody from talking, but the things that you're saying, you're now putting those out publicly. So if you're going to act like a clown, sometimes you might get caught then by your employer, or if you work at a church, you need to be conscious of the fact that when you use this medium, anybody can find it, anybody can listen. So I would say for our experience, we generally had a very specific conviction of what we were doing so that if somebody called me into their office to say, Hey, this is what you said. I wanted to be able to stand on that and say, yeah, that is what I actually believe. And I will say it again, if that's a problem, then you do what you got to do. But your discussion of the free speech of putting it out there, you're absolutely welcome to put whatever you want out there. But that does not mean that it's a consequence free conversation. And this is a very powerful medium to be able to say whatever you want. We have technology democratized so we all can record great stuff, even just in our own home. But that comes with a lot of responsibility and that power should be thought about, and I think wield it appropriately because you might get pushback or worse. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Well, my rule of thumb is boss, mom, pastor, if my boss, my mom and my pastor are in the room, am I still going to say this? And if the answer is yes, then say it. Say it. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Right? And that could still be controversial what you're saying, but if that's what you want to stand on, and 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Those are my convictions, yes, 

Ryan Holmes: 

Be convicted and say what you want to say. But it's not consequence free though, as I just want people to hear that as a, it's great to do this, put it out there. And then they're like, so I just got called into my boss's office and And that might happen too. Then you have to be mindful of where you're working at because if you're at a certain church and they have certain doctrinal convictions, your beliefs may be not in alignment with those, which you should have that conversation. But if you put that out publicly, that's a different level than you remaining silent in those areas. 

Kasey Olander: 

There's a sense of stewardship, and this is, this is a weighty platform. It could be, and that anybody can access it. Anybody can listen to it. And so hopefully you're modeling for people in the friendship that you're cultivating, you're modeling for people what they can do in being authentic and vulnerable. And maybe they're saying some things that might cause controversy, but as long as they're genuine convictions and they're real things that you're willing to stand by 

Ryan Holmes: 

And then be willing to have, because going to have probably tough conversations. I know I did when we had our podcast, but our topic was also, again, race and gender. So it was a very difficult topic, but it got a lot of people caught up in their feelings a lot of times. And then I would get emails or discussions offline about stuff that either I said or my co-host said. And so then it became something that I realized that this is not a consequence free medium. I love what we did and what we talked about. I'm still proud of it, but I am very mindful of you need to be aware of the broad audience that this does hit and anybody can listen. So I didn't even know Rebecca was a listener. 

Kasey Olander: 

Just found that out right now. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Yeah, I mean, there's been times where I've been at environments like doing my job working, and I do photography and video work. So I've been telling people, okay, we're going to line up and do this photo. And then I've been approached afterwards and they said, your voice sounds really familiar. Are you on? And I was like, oh my goodness. And then they launched into a conversation, which again, to our earlier point was kind of jolting. They know me, there's intimacy there. But then I was like, oh yeah. So this is not just a do it, smile, have fun. So for the topic that we were covering, it was very weighty. And depending on what topic you're doing, you should just be mindful of the potential ramifications of broadcasting that all out 

Rebecca Carrell: 

There, an ongoing ripple effect. It has an ongoing ripple effect, and you just never know when a ripple's going to splash up on you 

Kasey Olander: 

In addition to the fact that it's a lot of work. 

Ryan Holmes: 

It is a lot of work, but I mean it really, so much work. I find it, it is a lot of fun though. I mean, like you said, ours ran for a certain time and then we were all done. But it was also a collective, like it's tiring too. We ended kind of during the Covid era, because Covid made it a lot more challenging too for how we would record. But it is difficult, and you have a co-host, so to schedule people or to coordinate your schedule with your co-host schedule and have them all be on the same page to come up with topics week in and week out, 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Content vacuum, it's a content vacuum. It's 

Ryan Holmes: 

A lot. And then you can get sucked into just the immediacy of now. So you start just doing whatever just happened recently, we should talk about that tired, know what to talk about. So generating a whole plan of what you want to do, it is a lot of work. It's worth it if you love that topic and you really want to share that, but it can become laborious and exhausting and suck some of the joy out of what this is. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the vast majority of podcasts have less than 10 episodes. Wow. 

Ryan Holmes: 

That would make sense. Because you realize at that point, oh 

Rebecca Carrell: 

My gosh, right? This is a lot 

Kasey Olander: 

Of work. What have I gotten into? 

Rebecca Carrell: 

There's a whole bunch that quit at three, and I wish I had those statistics in front of me, but it is the vast majority, it's over half, have less than 10 episodes, and then people call it quits because it is, it's 

Ryan Holmes: 

Hard to get to 50 or a hundred or 200 or 600 plus. That's a lot of work to maintain that longevity. So congratulations. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Thank you. 

Kasey Olander: 

Thank you. I didn't even tell you to say that. Well, I guess to shift gears a little bit as we wrap up our time almost, what encouragement would you have to people who are listening to podcasts? We talked about a lot of the content creator side, but how would you encourage people who like to be good listeners? I hate to say consumers, but listeners. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Oh, I can speak into that. So my years in radio left me for an appreciation with the host because the host or the personality that you love to hate is a real person with real feelings. And believe it or not, when you throw verbal darts at them, they could get 500 compliments and one vitriolic filled post or something like that, and they will carry that for years. And I've been this person too, where someone's just gotten me so riled up and you want so much to comment, and 

Ryan Holmes: 

I'm going to get back at this person. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

Because of social media, I would say, wait 24 hours, at least. At least. And if you still feel passionately about it, don't be afraid to address something. I certainly want to know when I'm stepping on tender areas for sure. So don't be afraid to do it, but please do it in a spirit of love and not a spirit of hate, because I've just had some of those emails and I developed thicker skin over time. I mean, I was in it for 25 years, but it hurts. And then the other thing is I'm just so grateful to the Lord that we do live in a time and a place where we have this kind of access to anything we want to learn about. So I have grown so much. I mean, I've been at Dallas Seminary since 2015 growing, got a master's, and I'm in a doctoral program, but I have supplemented that with so many wonderful biblical and theological podcasts. And I'm just so grateful that I've been able to go deeper into subjects that I may not have had the time or capacity to in my seminary journey. And so I've been able to continue enriching my education. And then sometimes you just want to laugh, and so you put on something stupid and comedy, and that's a gift too. So I just carry with me gratitude that we have this available. 

Kasey Olander: 

Those are great things to highlight the intentionality of listeners, to not be deceived by the fact that, oh, they're out there and they're distant, but these are real people that you're listening 

Rebecca Carrell: 

To. And it hurts when you spend hours and hours and hours and sometimes weeks crafting your product and putting it out there. It really hurts when 30 seconds after someone listens to it, they sling back with something that you forget about in 20 minutes. But that we wear that for a long time. And maybe I'm a sensitive person anyway. I tend to, I don't know. I feel things deeply, but anyone with skin on, oh, for sure. When they work hard on a project and then it's hated and you let 'em know just how much it does, it hurts. 

Ryan Holmes: 

There's a whole part of sometimes just don't read the comments. Exactly. I was a sucker for that though, where I was like, I want to see what people post on iTunes. 

Then I'm like, I don't want to know what people post on iTunes and now 

Rebecca Carrell: 

And then we stop. 

Ryan Holmes: 

That's a very real thing. It is. I think if I can answer that question real quick in our closing minutes, I would say two things. One is to always be curious, not judgmental. That's good. So if you're listening, listen with curiosity, not judgment. Judgment can always come later, but be open and listen to what people are saying. Actively engage in not listening to prove why they're wrong, but listening to actually say, I hadn't thought of Rebecca's position. That's good. I don't agree with her, but I can see why she holds that and she defended it, and I can respect that point of view even if I don't align with her on that. So be curious, not judgmental. And then for a lot of people that I have learned the most from, they are always good readers. So be a reader who reads widely, so that way you have a very informed background. 

You have a lot of experience. You read news. You might read pop culture, you read theology, you read commentaries, which I know people are like, that's so many things to do, which I understand. So not everybody is built that way. I understand that. But for me, I always try to read as much as I can from different authors, people that are completely different parts of the spectrum of whatever topic I'm pursuing. I want to be well-rounded, so I can interact graciously and respectfully with whomever I talk to about a topic. And the more I can read, hopefully I can then project that in my conversations, in my recordings, in my writing. But you have to be a good reader. So being curious and not judgmental, how you actively engage, and then being just a very specific wide reader and thinker on whatever topic. That's 

Kasey Olander: 

Good. Yeah. I love it so much that you guys just highlighted this. This is not just listening to podcasts. This is good advice for ministry, for having difficult conversations with actual human beings, to retain people's personhood, to be charitable and gracious, and also to be curious, not judgmental, and to read widely. Yeah, 

Ryan Holmes: 

We didn't even plan that. That's beautiful at that. That's just the organic beauty of podcasts. Praise. 

Rebecca Carrell: 

We should do a podcast, 

Kasey Olander: 

Or spinoff show. 

Ryan Holmes: 

Well, the spinoff show. Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay. Well, on that note, 

Ryan Holmes: 

We're making moves here. Yeah, we're making something happen. 

Kasey Olander: 

We hope that today was encouraging for you, and we're grateful that you've tuned into this conversation. We hope that you have a greater appreciation for podcasting as a medium, how the Lord might use it, and yeah, maybe some fun along the way. So we thank you for joining us today. We hope that you join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture, and we hope that you leave us a rating or review as Ryan highlighted earlier. 

Thanks for that, Ryan.