The Ministry of Women in Scripture

Milyce Pipkin: 

Hi everyone, and welcome to this The Table podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Milyce Pipkin, I'm a communications fellow at the Hendricks Center. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And my name is Kymberli Cook, and I'm the Assistant Director here at the Hendricks Center. And today we are going to be discussing the ministry that we see women doing in scripture. Now, that's a little bit of a unique way of saying it, and we'll unpack it in a second, but first we're going to introduce those who had that observation and they are distinguished guests that we're thrilled to have. Sue Edwards is an author and the Professor Emeritus of Educational Ministries and Leadership here at DTS. Welcome. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Thank you for inviting me. I can't wait to get into this very interesting conversation. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We're thrilled to have you here. And then we're also joined by Kelley Mathews, who is also an author and is a writer at RightNow Media. So welcome, Kelley. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We're thrilled to have you here too. 

Kelley Mathews: 

This is great. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Awesome. So there is a lot of conversation surrounding the role of women in ministry, all over, all over evangelicalism, all over everywhere, and whether there are or are not appropriate lines and all of that. And it is a super worthwhile conversation and one that I am sure we are going to be walking along today. But our heart with this podcast, and I guess I should say and not but, and our heart with this podcast is to really let ourselves hear and praise the Lord for the ministries of the women in the Bible and looking at their presence there as ministry and looking at what they are actually doing. And I'm so excited about that because I feel like it doesn't get highlighted very often, and I am thrilled that you guys have had this observation and done some really deep study and deep diving into this. And so, we're thrilled to have you bringing a spotlight to that in this way, and we're thankful for your ministry. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Absolutely. And with that in mind, I love how you just colored all of that in, I couldn't think of two better women to be sitting at the table, actually I could here at this seminary think of a lot of women who could do it, but with you and the research that the two of you did in order to put together this literary work that we're going to briefly talk about a little bit in our discussion today. What were you thinking of when you were going and diving into this, doing something for women's ministry? And what were you hoping that would come out of it in your research? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

I would say that we wanted more than anything to give women a resource that was deep but concise, where they could actually get into the issues for themselves. And we did our best to make it very readable, understandable for the average woman. There are that many books that people normally read on this topic, and yet we know that the average woman in the church and even outside the church is not going to read that many books. So we were so excited to try and take all of that and condense it. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah, concise is the word you were going for. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Concise, yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I don't know how well we did it in certain chapters. And honestly, it's not just for women. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, that's right. 

Kelley Mathews: 

It's for the entire church. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, it is. 

Kelley Mathews: 

There are a lot of pastors who are trying to figure this out, and giving them a concise resource that says, hey, here are the questions that are really common. We even got these questions from Facebook, like tell us what you want to know. And we pulled it all together and we made these up. So giving them both sides, that here are the major arguments that conservatives and liberals, however you want to call them, the different names, this is how they come to conclusions. So now, people know how to study for themselves. So we are hoping that it's a really useful tool. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I love that, because like you're saying, it's not even just for women. Because I think we've talked about that a lot here at the center, and about when you're talking about women's issues, it feels like you only get women usually at the table talking about it. Which is ironic because here we are. But in defense of our brothers in the church who are also trying to work through it and think through it, they also sometimes don't have time or the energy to sort through all of those books. And so, having this resource is really helpful. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. Sue had to reign me in a little bit, there were times when- 

Kymberli Cook: 

Oh, really? I was wondering who the concise problem was going to be between you. 

Kelley Mathews: 

It was more the academic, I was writing on a higher academic level. She was like, no. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

I had to bring her. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So wait a minute. We had to bring the editor, reel her in? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah, we did. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Use regular words. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Use regular words, that's not our audience. And trying to make deep theology understandable. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Accessible. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Accessible, understandable. Because this is such an important topic. I mean, actually I said to somebody, "This affects 50% of the church." And I had a student say to me, "No, it affects a hundred percent of the church." 

Kelley Mathews: 

That's good. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I thought, she's right. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And I love this because you could say it speaks to women, but when you say it's broader because it's the church and it just speaks to that's what a ministry does, right? It speaks to the church. The Holy Spirit moves and it teaches the church by and large if you're allowing the Holy Spirit to hear, see, do what it is that God has put in you to be able to embrace. And so I love that response, Kelley, when you're saying that. When you were doing this and when you're doing work, period really, what is it that you discover about women? I mean there's probably a new discovery, I'm sure, as we discover ourselves, as we discover others. What does that look like for you all having done the deep dive? As Kym just mentioned. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

As I was thinking, honestly I loved... I knew some things about the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, but I think for her and then other women as well, getting into them in a really deep and concise way. I see so many times that women are really, they're categorized in ways that are not true. It's a beautiful story of a woman who probably was one of the first evangelists, the woman at the well, who is so misunderstood. It's very likely that if we don't know... We take all of these other texts and we look at the background and we look at the culture, and DTS is really known for that. And yet it seems that often when we look at someone like the woman at the well, where we don't actually look at what could her have life really have been like, and we see that she likely could have been married very young, that women were married at 12, 13 years of age, possibly right at the time of puberty. 

We see that probably to an older man. And people didn't live as long, she could have been widowed, she could have been widowed a couple of times. And if she was not fertile, she could have also been left by another man. There are so many possibilities. And it's so interesting that Jesus doesn't say to her like he did the woman who was taken in adultery, he doesn't say, go and sin no more. Now, we're all sinners. And I'm sure she was a sinner, but to label her as the quintessential bad girl of the Bible, which we often do, is really... If you go through the rest of it and you notice that when she went back to the town, they believed her. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

She had respect. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

She had respect. And you also notice that Jesus starts then teaching the disciples about evangelism. And I'm wondering if he doesn't just point to her as the example. 

Kymberli Cook: 

But instead, she's often approached as a literary device in the teaching of scripture and that kind of thing, but she's not even recognized sometimes as a person who had a ministry and that kind of thing. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

No. 

Kelley Mathews: 

In the early church in some way. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And she did. I mean, think of the gutsiness of her and the passion, going back to the village and telling everybody, and so passionate. They believed her and they run to see what's happening. And you wonder, wouldn't it be wonderful to know more about her after that? And to think that he actually intentionally made his way there, to a woman, to a Samaritan. So you have racial issues, you have gender issues. He went out of his way- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

To make that conversation happen. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

... to make that conversation happen. And it should make everyone realize the value that Jesus brought to women. There are over 40 times that Jesus interacts with women in the gospels. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Cool. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You are just full of information. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, it's very exciting when you think about all of the women, and then you think about the culture. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And that was part of the fun. 

Kymberli Cook: 

What stood out to you, Kelley? 

Kelley Mathews: 

That was part of the fun of researching, because I'm in history and backgrounds are really interesting to me. So knowing, okay, are we treating these characters, these people, fairly? Have our traditional understandings really looked at the whole picture? And so, in that example, we think not. We think she's just been labeled and then that's it. So I was thinking of women from the Old Testament, and it's been a few years so I can't say that the research for this book was the first time I ever heard of them, but Huldah was a prophet, a prophetess. And so, there is an argument that I feel like is super foolish, but it's out there, of God only chooses women when there's no good man around. And that's prevalent in certain circles even today. But Huldah, I mean you only see her if you're reading in Second Kings. Who really reads Second Kings really closely these days? But she was there in the time of Jeremiah and Isaiah. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And they weren't out of town. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So you go, well, then why did the court officials go to her? Well, we don't know why, but obviously she had respect. And so, even just this small little story that is truly about the rediscovery of the law and how the king turned the nation around by becoming faithful. She has a major role to play by saying, "Thus says of the Lord. This is God's word." And they listen. So really, she has spiritual authority, and that's kind of a new way of thinking about women in the Bible. 

Kymberli Cook: 

What other Old Testament women stood out to you? Let's not go Proverbs 31 woman. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

That's who I was thinking actually. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I'm thinking of any other- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Like Deborah? 

Kymberli Cook: 

... female prophets. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah, Deborah, certainly. 

Kelley Mathews: 

She was major. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

She was major. And she has been called, and so is Huldah, a breakout. Because it doesn't fit with a lot of people's- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Preconceptions. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

... preconceptions. But some of the, this was another, there were no men. Well, God can raise up a donkey to speak, I just cannot believe that there were no men. And the other thing, it says that she was a judge and she was, how many years? 20. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I don't remember how many years it was. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

20? Was it 20 or 40? 

Kelley Mathews: 

I don't remember how long she actually lived and ruled, but because of her ministry they had peace for 40 years. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

40 years. That's right. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So that was a generational thing. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Think about it. And she was one of the judges. There were a bunch of them that weren't that great. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. One of my favorite things with her was that she was a judge and a prophet, and the only other ones that we see with both of those terms are Moses and Samuel. And so, she's somewhere in the middle to early end of the Judges period and there are no others. And after Deborah's two chapters, so she gets a ton of space, if you look through the Judges, you see how much. I think Gideon's the only one who gets that kind of comparable space. And from- 

Kymberli Cook: 

From an editor. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Editor, there you go. What are you going to do? 

Kymberli Cook: 

You're like, listen, this is a big deal. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Word count, yeah. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And it's all positive. There's not a negative thing said about her. And all the other judges, there's some negativity going on. Even poor Samuel, he's not a great dad, otherwise he's wonderful. So yeah, that was one of those things I learned. I was like, oh, I always knew she was a great judge and she led this battle with Barak and all that, but I didn't, until this time of really digging in, notice the dual nature of her leadership. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And that is very important. And some say that she actually just judged in private. Well, that's silly. I mean, really. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Didn't it say she sat at a tree and they came to her? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah. 

Kelley Mathews: 

In central Israel. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, how is that private? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And all these people came to her just like they did for any judge. And to say that she didn't speak publicly that entire time- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Is reading into scripture. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

... is really reading into scripture, and it's just kind of illogical. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I feel like the studies that, and we're not the only ones who have studied this just to be fair, but just given that we've spent a few years looking into them, we have seen the preconceptions that people bring to the text over the years. So if you don't think a woman can lead, you're not going to think Deborah's really a normal judge, or that maybe she did it in private. Just coming with an idea of what that's supposed to look like instead of looking at the text. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So can I push on that for one second? I'm not going to push on it, I'm going to ask. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So what might be, because we're talking about women in scripture and we're referencing it as their presence there as ministry, so what about those who might say that we ourselves are doing that? So we are coming with our preconception. 

Kelley Mathews: 

We all have them. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

We all are. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know. That's actually what I'm trying to surface and at least acknowledge. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And we wouldn't deny that. And when I say that the folks who look at Deborah are coming with those, they're coming without looking at the scripture and being willing to be taught differently. Does that make sense? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And everybody does it. That's the thing. And we call it, in our book, thinking evangelistically. 

Kelley Mathews: 

It's a made up word. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

It's a made up word, but it stretches in order to, we need to come to each text honestly, as best we can. Now, we all have our biases and we need to fess up to those and know that. But if something is not in the text at all, and I'll give you an example. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, I was going to ask for one. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

All right. So we say that if a woman, if the church met in her home, then she must have led the church. Well, it doesn't say that. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

No. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I think that's a stretch. And I think everybody needs to come to this with an open mind, an open heart, open eyes, and not come with making it fit a preconceived agenda, or we have this pattern that we have to fit everything into. Honestly, when I look at all of these different women and all these different scenarios, I come out sometimes on one and now sometimes on the other. And we just want to try to be honest and be open and look at it for what's really there. And if we would all do that, I think we might not fight so much over there. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Oh, I love that. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I was just going to say, we wouldn't be so mean about it. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And we wouldn't be mean about it, and call people names. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And impugn on their motives. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And impugn their motives. The things that we do to each other. And in the middle of all the crazy things going on, and we're doing that to each other. It's just- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

It's ungodly. It's not right. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, the thing is, it hurts the cause of Jesus. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

It hurts. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Right. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

What we're really about is everybody, men and women, are so desperate for the Lord. And that's all we focus on. Just the divisiveness just makes me sad. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Well, we're all products of Dallas Theological Seminary, and so part of the motto here is to teach truth and to love well. And so, I'm loving that you ladies are doing that, but then you're speaking to that, the love well part, and how are we doing that when we are being divisive? It's just not representative of Jesus, as you mentioned, as Christian. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

No. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Let me speak to that real quick. I had a church call me a few months ago and say, "Hey, could you come talk to our group. We're wrestling with this issue and we were just trying to get different perspectives, so come talk to us about your book and Q&A." And so I walked in there going, this could get really ugly, or we'll see, right? And it turned out to be wonderful. But what I love so much about the experience is that this group, they come from all different variety of thought and background, and they are together, they're united. I mean, they have their disagreements, but they are at peace with one another. And they're looking at all options and they're trying to discern, what does the Bible tell us? And so the idea of, we come to the conversation with charity thinking that I'm looking at your best motives, I'm expecting the best out of each other, not automatically thinking the worst. And that's the only way you can really have a conversation about this. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's good. You've mentioned some women that you talk about in the book, but I'm just curious about Old Testament women that you personally may resonate with or someone who sticks out to you just personally going forward, before we get to the New Testament. Anybody? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Really, I think we've hit on the ones that I- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Well then, that's fine. That's fine. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I have one. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

You got another one? Okay. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I'm going to go back to Moses, and again, I don't even know if we wrote much about him, but his early life was saved by a bunch of women. So you've got the two midwives, right? In the early, was that Exodus one, where they save his life by lying to Pharaoh and his officials, his mother who sneaks him around as long as she can, she's nursing them. And then his sister. Okay. So he's surrounded by women who birthed him and fed him and saved him and watched over him. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And were insanely brave. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And then Pharaoh's daughter. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, yes. 

Kymberli Cook: 

His mom sets her baby on a river, and his sister- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Since an eight-year-old girl or however old she was. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... potentially with wild animals and all of that, follows. That's pretty incredible. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. And then Pharoah's daughter, I forgot her, who eventually saves him. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

She's a woman too. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Not a small thing either. 

Kelley Mathews: 

There's a full circle. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And then even later in life, his wife Sephora. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Oh, yeah. That's a crazy story. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's a crazy story. 

Kelley Mathews: 

She did. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah. I like that. I've never thought of that before. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I hadn't either. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

But yeah, that's all there. There was a lot of love for him from women who were very instrumental, very brave in saving his life. 

So that would, I think, bring us to, if we were even going in order here, to the Proverbs 31 woman. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Okay. All right. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Let it rip. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So yeah, let's talk about talk the Proverbs 31 woman. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Okay, talk about the Proverbs 31 woman. Well, first of all, she's not a real person and that is so, so very helpful. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Refreshing. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Very refreshing. She is not a real person, she is the quintessential king's wife. And actually, King Lemuel who wrote this, learned it from his mother. It's really his mother's idea of what her best daughter-in-law would be. There's so much distortion that has come from this section of this ending of Proverbs, where there'd be people who say, well, all women then need to be married, all women need to have children, all women. But that's not what the scripture says. And it's wonderful, I'm married, I have kids, I have grandkids, I love them dearly, but the scripture actually holds that singleness is also an honorable state. And so, when we take that woman and we put her up as a model for every woman, it doesn't fit, first of all. And she's also an aristocrat with a bunch of maids. 

Kymberli Cook: 

A lot of privilege. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

A lot of privilege. And even in the midst of that, she's an honorable woman, but she's in a particular cultural setting. And so it's the kind of thing that we always need to do when we do scripture, is we take out principles. Now, there are wonderful principles in there. Her main loyalty is to God. She does honor, and she makes sure that her children and her husband are respected and loved and taken care of, which any woman who's married knows that that is absolutely appropriate. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Appropriate. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

It's a beautiful picture. She also works very hard, and she has, you think she has a belt factory, she's got all kinds of projects going. And so to take her and make her the woman that every woman has to be like, which is what some have done with this, and then to set her on this high, she's impossible. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Nobody likes her. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Nobody likes her because she's just a beautiful picture of wisdom. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Right. I was hoping you were going to go there. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah. And we all want to follow that, but it doesn't mean that every one of us has to be every one of those things. And God doesn't actually, I mean, our highest calling for each of us is to be a disciple of Christ. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Amen. 

Kymberli Cook: 

To look like Christ. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

To look like Christ, yes. That is our calling, and that's our first calling. Every single one of us. Some women discern that they want to invest their entire life doing that, because we all know from Corinthians that if you don't, you're going to have other issues, life's going to get complicated. Now, you can choose that. It's wonderful, it's honorable, it's a lovely way to spend your life, if that's what you choose. But it isn't necessarily what every single woman needs to do. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. I think of Proverbs 31 as a list of qualities. Isn't most of Proverbs about character? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And that's what we're looking at. And I would say even men are supposed to read that, not as a, this is the kind of woman I want to marry, but as the kind of person I want to be. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So just to note, you don't have to be Proverbs 31 woman because it's a poem. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

That's right. And it's not a real person. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Not a real person. It's what to aspire to be. 

Kymberli Cook: 

That's my Bible bookmarks. Here, I'll give you a couple. All right, so New Testament. Sorry. So New Testament, Mary and Martha are two very key women in the New Testament accounts of Jesus. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Everybody knows them. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, everybody knows them. We've all, or not some generations, but at least my generation and up have seen the flannelgraphs of Mary and Martha. So to me, and at times, I think especially the one account where Mary's with Jesus and Martha's preparing the food and that kind of thing, it seems like maybe they have two different ministries in scripture. And what are y'all's takes on Mary and Martha's ministries? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You could do a dissertation about this. People probably have, I'm sure. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So this is just me personally, I don't know that they're really all that different. There are actually two scenes where they really show up together, the famous one where Mary sits at Jesus' feet as a disciple, like any of the men did. And Jesus blessed her for that and was like, don't take that away from her. It doesn't mean Martha didn't listen, right? It is just that she had gifts and a responsibility that she felt for the whole hospitality side of things. And she was just having a rough day, I think, with all these people who showed up, so maybe she wanted some help. 

But if we look at, is it John 11 or 12? I forget, where Lazarus has died. Who shows up first as Jesus approaches? Martha. And she comes to him and she's like, where have you been? If you had come, he would have lived. So she has faith. And then he was like, Martha, and then he weeps with her. And then she makes this declaration of, "You are the Christ, the Son of God, I know you are." And he's like, "I'm the resurrection." She knows her theology, just like Mary does. Okay. So we just don't see it in these two little [inaudible 00:28:29]. And so, I really don't like the way that generally it has been divided so harshly. They're both amazing. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So how would you characterize those ministries? Declarative? They're both disciples, you know what I mean? Just digging into what is it that they were doing as they were ministering in scripture and in the life and ministry of Jesus. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

They were friends. They were good friends of Jesus. 

Kelley Mathews: 

They shared life with him. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

They shared life with him, and he was in their home often. And they were both godly women. I think Martha was just a little bit more, at that moment- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Working in the background. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

When a bunch of people come into your home and suddenly you think they're hungry, and I want to take care of them. 

Kymberli Cook: 

As a logistics person, I appreciate Martha immensely. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Absolutely. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Even her being like, listen, if you had been here earlier, this is how it all would've worked together. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

But it doesn't mean that she's this homemaker or that's all she is. And I think Jesus was just using this setting to make a point, that women are called to learn, which we often don't think how counter cultural this was. The entire Bible is all about... We have to look at the culture at the time. Men are in charge of everything. Women, they can't testify in a trial, they have very few rights. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Their identity is all connected to their male person. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And their identity is all connected. Even they can't work. They have no way to- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Independently, you mean? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Oh, right. Exactly. They can't. Yes, they work all the time. 

Kymberli Cook: 

All scriptural women might be offended by that. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Right. No kidding. No kidding. But they can't go out and run a shop. And so we have to always consider how scandalous really Jesus was in the way that he treated women. I mean, a Pharisee would not have a woman in the same room at his feet, he wouldn't dream of that. And here she is, and he's actually praising her, blessing her for it. That is just so radical. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And I like the way you said this situation, that he was probably using this example of, calm down, Martha, it's going to be okay, she's actually doing exactly what she needs to be doing. In the sense of showing a contrast between them, not that what you're doing is bad, but what she's doing is actually good. And that was different, counter cultural. Yeah. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I just love the fact that you, Dr. Sue, just brought up the big word learn, women learning, because this to me, I had not thought of it. But yeah, that's important to me because that's like the gift of Jesus for her, is that she is noted for sitting at his feet and learning what it is that he's teaching at that time. And it's okay. And that's what we're doing, that's what women do in seminary. That's why we're here. We're here learning about the love of God, we're here learning about scripture, we're learning about how to put this into life, practicality and in ministry. 

And so I just wanted to just zoom in and focus on that word because it's a word with huge connotation here in scripture. I could move on to Priscilla, we've got that coming up. But just talking about the two women and the contrast that rests between them, I'm just wondering, just us sitting here at the table and the contrast that rests between us and the women in the New Testament that we probably, I wouldn't say align yourself with, but someone who sticks out to you in ministry in the New Testament. Can we just go a little bit broader with that? Yeah, there are a couple of them. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Who were you you about to- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I Love Dorcas. I mean, I love all of them, don't get me wrong, but people just don't talk about her, or Tabitha, in Acts. I mean to me, there were women who prayed for her, who loved her because of the work that she did in ministry, making clothing for the widows and seeing after people, and loving them well. And so long story short, when you look at her story and you see that there were women who prayed for her, and when she passed suddenly, they sent for Peter to come and pray for her. And when he came, he was able to resurrect her through the glory of God. And so, she's that woman. 

She's that woman that we could look at her and say, I would love to be a Dorcas, that people could pray for me and resurrect things within me and take that to the Lord in prayer for me. I even loved the women who loved her well to know to do that, who knew God to do that. And so, that's one of my- women who you don't hear a lot about, but the story is huge and it has a lot, and there's a lot to unpack there with that story. So if you haven't read it, please do. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, that's right. 

Kelley Mathews: 

We love to pick on Euodia and Syntyche, I probably butchered her name, in Philippians, where Paul is writing and saying, okay, let's get them to agree. I need them to agree to stop disagreeing because they're important to the ministry. And I'm paraphrasing, I don't have my Bible with me, but we like to just go, oh, look, those two gossipy women, those two, they're cat fighting. You can use all the tropes about these two women who are disagreeing that Paul calls them out by name in this communal letter. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Tragically for all of time. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Right. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Don't you love it? 

Kymberli Cook: 

They're probably like, oh, man. 

Kelley Mathews: 

If you don't understand, who were they that they were worth naming? They were leaders in the church and they were his coworkers. And that's a big term he uses, of Timothy and Titus and Silas, coworkers. So when I started looking at that, I was like, oh, so they weren't just these two little troublemakers, they were important to that community, and he needed them to get over whatever was dividing them so they could come back together so that the ministry could move forward. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And how often does that happen, even in the church, right? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, sadly, it does happen. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes, I know. I've read one of your books about that, and I've experienced it personally in the ministry, so I know. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Oh my goodness. Well, the woman now, she is not in the corner, we know her well, but I love Priscilla and I love her because... I love that, I mean think about it, she's a tent maker with her husband and with Paul, they have a little business together and can't you just see them sitting around and they are making tents. And of course, Paul is just teaching and talking about Jesus. And she is just a sponge, obviously. And the first time that Priscilla and Aquila are mentioned, it's Aquila and Priscilla, a couple times. And the rest of the times, like six times they're in there, her name is first, which is really interesting. She obviously was a thinker. 

She was the one who, when they confronted Apollos, and that's crazy, when we got into that, we don't know really, what it says is they heard Apollos. She knew, and her husband knew that he was a little confused. He was a powerful orator, he had a great future in the church, and he was extremely later, but he was off on some things. And the passage actually says that Priscilla and Aquila, and her name's first, took him aside. Now, a lot of translations say took him to their home, but that is not in the text, which is very interesting, really. And because the argument is made, well, she was just doing this in private, we really don't know. She could have taken them to their home where a bunch of friends gathered, and that was actually the assembly, because they didn't have church buildings. 

Kelley Mathews: 

That was the church. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

You see, we look at all this and we say, oh, we think of it in terms of our churches. Well, they just have little local houses where they meet. How often do they meet? Maybe they meet every day. Do they have an actual sermon? Maybe not, maybe they just have conversation. Do they just talk? Do women talk too? 

Kelley Mathews: 

Well, we know they do. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

We know they do, yes. Because Paul told them to be quiet sometimes, because they overdid it a little bit. 

Kymberli Cook: 

There it is. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I was wondering if we were going to go there. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

But really, I mean she was, and that culture and for him, obviously, she was a coworker that he highly respected. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Oh, yeah. He names her so often in different ends of letters and things like that. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. In a culture where this was almost scandalous for a man to have a friend like that. This was a culture where men didn't have friends, women friends. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's good. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. I like her because, I don't know if it's the most empowered thing to say, but I really like her because she ministers with her husband. And my husband and I both, we met in seminary, and he's a teaching pastor, and I'm here at the Hendrick Center and finishing up some doctoral work and that kind of thing. And there's a lot of occasions where he and I get to teach together and that kind of thing. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Oh, that's great. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And we love it. And there's just this dynamic between us. And so, I feel like I look at them and I'm like, ah. 

Kelley Mathews: 

They're a great mom for you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And I'm probably the bossy one, it would be like, I'm going to take you aside. Theology matters to me, and you're a little off. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And think how God's going to use that in your life. It's wonderful. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yep, yep. I love that she was concerned about theology, you're getting it wrong. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Let us get back to what's the real. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. And that was important to her, obviously. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah, to both of them. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

As our time winds down a little bit, women of God, just want to get an opportunity to ask you guys, you ladies, this question before we wrap things up. How have you personally seen the Lord just show up and show out in your ministries? Do you have a particular... I know this is just something that you're saying, it's like a needle in a haystack. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We've been talking about all of these different ministries of women in scripture, so your own ministries and how the Lord has used you. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Okay, this is very minor, but I'll go with it. Because I don't have a position in a church, I'm a volunteer leader. We do what we can, that kind of thing. Every now and then I'll teach a Bible study, but I write for RightNow Media, which is a ministry in and of itself. And I blog when I get a little passionate about certain thoughts, I will vent through words, but not spoken. I'll write it out until it feels like, okay, this says what I'm feeling. And then I stick it on my blog and go, okay, well let's see what happens. Okay. And most of the time, it's fine. I might get a little pushback or I might not, but I never really know who sees those because I don't have a huge platform, I don't even really know who knows where my address is. 

So not long ago, this week, I got a little text from a friend that I don't see very often, and she was like, "Hey, I just want you to know, you just keep writing. All your stuff on women is blowing my mind." And I'm like, "What?" Because to me, I've been studying for so long and I think everybody knows this stuff, and they don't. And so that was just a sweet little confirmation. And then she had a question for me, have you seen this? And what do you think of that? But you just don't know who's hearing you, who's seeing your stuff. You guys, keep going. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, and you also did a class on theology in your church last year. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. That was fun. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I think men were there too. 

Kelley Mathews: 

No, we didn't invite them. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

You didn't invite them. Okay. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Not this time. We had some go, that sounds interesting. We were like, maybe later. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

All right, all right. Okay, okay. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So yeah, it was good. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

What about you, Dr. Sue? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, I was raised in a non-Christian home. I was a mess. And gosh, if Jesus hadn't found me, and you too, I mean there's a bunch of us around. I didn't know what a flannelgraph was, because I was 24 by the time I even figured out, even started on my road with the Lord. And gosh, He has been so faithful and so good. And there have been times that have been really rough. I was a minister to women in a couple of megachurches. But it all prepared me, I've just looked back now and see that everything God has done has been used and been there to pour into other people. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's awesome. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I love pouring into other people. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And you ladies, you only have a few minutes left here. But I just want to say that I love that you've poured into me, here in seminary. And so I see how your ministries resonate in women like me everywhere all over, especially for the ones of us who have been blessed to come here to Dallas Theological Seminary. Dr. Sue, you were instrumental in my even getting admitted and taking classes with you and learning how to minister to women and to love women well. And just reading your books and just seeing you live the life has just been a joy to me. 

And then Kelley over here, in my little book, my little manuscript that I've been writing, Kelley's been instrumental through the years of just having helped me with the editing and that kind of thing, and a few of the chapters and that sort of thing. That's not why you're here, but you are here for me to just have an opportunity to publicly say, thank you, thank you. And to dear, sweet Kym here, she too got the Hendrick Center to just take me in and embrace me and give me an opportunity to just podcast here for The Table podcast. It's just been a blessing in my life. So it's just a joy to have three beautiful women whom I get the opportunity to see you live out the love of God in your ministry and in your lives. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, it's a beautiful thing to do ministry together. I think we, in our individualism, our American individualism, we miss so much by not joining together and loving each other well. We need each other. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

We do. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And it's such a joy. I am just grateful to the Lord for the opportunities and the doors that He opens, I think, for anyone who really wants to serve Him. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Amen. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Hi everyone, and welcome to this The Table podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Milyce Pipkin, I'm a communications fellow at the Hendricks Center. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And my name is Kymberli Cook, and I'm the Assistant Director here at the Hendricks Center. And today we are going to be discussing the ministry that we see women doing in Scripture. Now, that's a little bit of a unique way of saying it, and we'll unpack it in a second, but first we're going to introduce those who had that observation and they are distinguished guests that we're thrilled to have. Sue Edwards is an author and the Professor Emeritus of Educational Ministries and Leadership here at DTS. Welcome. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Thank you for inviting me. I can't wait to get into this very interesting conversation. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We're thrilled to have you here. And then we're also joined by Kelley Mathews, who is also an author and is a writer at RightNow Media. So welcome, Kelley. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Thank you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We're thrilled to have you here too. 

Kelley Mathews: 

This is great. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Awesome. So there is a lot of conversation surrounding the role of women in ministry, all over, all over evangelicalism, all over everywhere, and whether there are or are not appropriate lines and all of that. And it is a super worthwhile conversation and one that I am sure we are going to be walking along today. But our heart with this podcast, and I guess I should say and not but, and our heart with this podcast is to really let ourselves hear and praise the Lord for the ministries of the women in the Bible and looking at their presence there as ministry and looking at what they are actually doing. And I'm so excited about that because I feel like it doesn't get highlighted very often, and I am thrilled that you guys have had this observation and done some really deep study and deep diving into this. And so, we're thrilled to have you bringing a spotlight to that in this way, and we're thankful for your ministry. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Absolutely. And with that in mind, I love how you just colored all of that in, I couldn't think of two better women to be sitting at the table, actually I could here at this seminary think of a lot of women who could do it, but with you and the research that the two of you did in order to put together this literary work that we're going to briefly talk about a little bit in our discussion today. What were you thinking of when you were going and diving into this, doing something for women's ministry? And what were you hoping that would come out of it in your research? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

I would say that we wanted more than anything to give women a resource that was deep but concise, where they could actually get into the issues for themselves. And we did our best to make it very readable, understandable for the average woman. There are that many books that people normally read on this topic, and yet we know that the average woman in the church and even outside the church is not going to read that many books. So we were so excited to try and take all of that and condense it. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah, concise is the word you were going for. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Concise, yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I don't know how well we did it in certain chapters. And honestly, it's not just for women. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, that's right. 

Kelley Mathews: 

It's for the entire church. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, it is. 

Kelley Mathews: 

There are a lot of pastors who are trying to figure this out, and giving them a concise resource that says, hey, here are the questions that are really common. We even got these questions from Facebook, like tell us what you want to know. And we pulled it all together and we made these up. So giving them both sides, that here are the major arguments that conservatives and liberals, however you want to call them, the different names, this is how they come to conclusions. So now, people know how to study for themselves. So we are hoping that it's a really useful tool. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I love that, because like you're saying, it's not even just for women. Because I think we've talked about that a lot here at the center, and about when you're talking about women's issues, it feels like you only get women usually at the table talking about it. Which is ironic because here we are. But in defense of our brothers in the church who are also trying to work through it and think through it, they also sometimes don't have time or the energy to sort through all of those books. And so, having this resource is really helpful. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. Sue had to reign me in a little bit, there were times when- 

Kymberli Cook: 

Oh, really? I was wondering who the concise problem was going to be between you. 

Kelley Mathews: 

It was more the academic, I was writing on a higher academic level. She was like, no. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

I had to bring her. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So wait a minute. We had to bring the editor, reel her in? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah, we did. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Use regular words. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Use regular words, that's not our audience. And trying to make deep theology understandable. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Accessible. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Accessible, understandable. Because this is such an important topic. I mean, actually I said to somebody, "This affects 50% of the church." And I had a student say to me, "No, it affects a hundred percent of the church." 

Kelley Mathews: 

That's good. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I thought, she's right. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And I love this because you could say it speaks to women, but when you say it's broader because it's the church and it just speaks to that's what a ministry does, right? It speaks to the church. The Holy Spirit moves and it teaches the church by and large if you're allowing the Holy Spirit to hear, see, do what it is that God has put in you to be able to embrace. And so I love that response, Kelley, when you're saying that. When you were doing this and when you're doing work, period really, what is it that you discover about women? I mean there's probably a new discovery, I'm sure, as we discover ourselves, as we discover others. What does that look like for you all having done the deep dive? As Kym just mentioned. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

As I was thinking, honestly I loved... I knew some things about the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, but I think for her and then other women as well, getting into them in a really deep and concise way. I see so many times that women are really, they're categorized in ways that are not true. It's a beautiful story of a woman who probably was one of the first evangelists, the woman at the well, who is so misunderstood. It's very likely that if we don't know... We take all of these other texts and we look at the background and we look at the culture, and DTS is really known for that. And yet it seems that often when we look at someone like the woman at the well, where we don't actually look at what could her have life really have been like, and we see that she likely could have been married very young, that women were married at 12, 13 years of age, possibly right at the time of puberty. 

We see that probably to an older man. And people didn't live as long, she could have been widowed, she could have been widowed a couple of times. And if she was not fertile, she could have also been left by another man. There are so many possibilities. And it's so interesting that Jesus doesn't say to her like he did the woman who was taken in adultery, he doesn't say, go and sin no more. Now, we're all sinners. And I'm sure she was a sinner, but to label her as the quintessential bad girl of the Bible, which we often do, is really... If you go through the rest of it and you notice that when she went back to the town, they believed her. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

She had respect. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

She had respect. And you also notice that Jesus starts then teaching the disciples about evangelism. And I'm wondering if he doesn't just point to her as the example. 

Kymberli Cook: 

But instead, she's often approached as a literary device in the teaching of Scripture and that kind of thing, but she's not even recognized sometimes as a person who had a ministry and that kind of thing. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

No. 

Kelley Mathews: 

In the early church in some way. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And she did. I mean, think of the gutsiness of her and the passion, going back to the village and telling everybody, and so passionate. They believed her and they run to see what's happening. And you wonder, wouldn't it be wonderful to know more about her after that? And to think that he actually intentionally made his way there, to a woman, to a Samaritan. So you have racial issues, you have gender issues. He went out of his way- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

To make that conversation happen. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

... to make that conversation happen. And it should make everyone realize the value that Jesus brought to women. There are over 40 times that Jesus interacts with women in the gospels. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Cool. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You are just full of information. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, it's very exciting when you think about all of the women, and then you think about the culture. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And that was part of the fun. 

Kymberli Cook: 

What stood out to you, Kelley? 

Kelley Mathews: 

That was part of the fun of researching, because I'm in history and backgrounds are really interesting to me. So knowing, okay, are we treating these characters, these people, fairly? Have our traditional understandings really looked at the whole picture? And so, in that example, we think not. We think she's just been labeled and then that's it. So I was thinking of women from the Old Testament, and it's been a few years so I can't say that the research for this book was the first time I ever heard of them, but Huldah was a prophet, a prophetess. And so, there is an argument that I feel like is super foolish, but it's out there, of God only chooses women when there's no good man around. And that's prevalent in certain circles even today. But Huldah, I mean you only see her if you're reading in Second Kings. Who really reads Second Kings really closely these days? But she was there in the time of Jeremiah and Isaiah. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And they weren't out of town. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So you go, well, then why did the court officials go to her? Well, we don't know why, but obviously she had respect. And so, even just this small little story that is truly about the rediscovery of the law and how the king turned the nation around by becoming faithful. She has a major role to play by saying, "Thus says of the Lord. This is God's word." And they listen. So really, she has spiritual authority, and that's kind of a new way of thinking about women in the Bible. 

Kymberli Cook: 

What other Old Testament women stood out to you? Let's not go Proverbs 31 woman. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

That's who I was thinking actually. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I'm thinking of any other- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Like Deborah? 

Kymberli Cook: 

... female prophets. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah, Deborah, certainly. 

Kelley Mathews: 

She was major. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

She was major. And she has been called, and so is Huldah, a breakout. Because it doesn't fit with a lot of people's- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Preconceptions. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

... preconceptions. But some of the, this was another, there were no men. Well, God can raise up a donkey to speak, I just cannot believe that there were no men. And the other thing, it says that she was a judge and she was, how many years? 20. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I don't remember how many years it was. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

20? Was it 20 or 40? 

Kelley Mathews: 

I don't remember how long she actually lived and ruled, but because of her ministry they had peace for 40 years. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

40 years. That's right. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So that was a generational thing. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Think about it. And she was one of the judges. There were a bunch of them that weren't that great. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. One of my favorite things with her was that she was a judge and a prophet, and the only other ones that we see with both of those terms are Moses and Samuel. And so, she's somewhere in the middle to early end of the Judges period and there are no others. And after Deborah's two chapters, so she gets a ton of space, if you look through the Judges, you see how much. I think Gideon's the only one who gets that kind of comparable space. And from- 

Kymberli Cook: 

From an editor. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Editor, there you go. What are you going to do? 

Kymberli Cook: 

You're like, listen, this is a big deal. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Word count, yeah. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And it's all positive. There's not a negative thing said about her. And all the other judges, there's some negativity going on. Even poor Samuel, he's not a great dad, otherwise he's wonderful. So yeah, that was one of those things I learned. I was like, oh, I always knew she was a great judge and she led this battle with Barak and all that, but I didn't, until this time of really digging in, notice the dual nature of her leadership. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And that is very important. And some say that she actually just judged in private. Well, that's silly. I mean, really. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Didn't it say she sat at a tree and they came to her? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah. 

Kelley Mathews: 

In central Israel. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, how is that private? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And all these people came to her just like they did for any judge. And to say that she didn't speak publicly that entire time- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Is reading into Scripture. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

... is really reading into Scripture, and it's just kind of illogical. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I feel like the studies that, and we're not the only ones who have studied this just to be fair, but just given that we've spent a few years looking into them, we have seen the preconceptions that people bring to the text over the years. So if you don't think a woman can lead, you're not going to think Deborah's really a normal judge, or that maybe she did it in private. Just coming with an idea of what that's supposed to look like instead of looking at the text. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So can I push on that for one second? I'm not going to push on it, I'm going to ask. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So what might be, because we're talking about women in Scripture and we're referencing it as their presence there as ministry, so what about those who might say that we ourselves are doing that? So we are coming with our preconception. 

Kelley Mathews: 

We all have them. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

We all are. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know. That's actually what I'm trying to surface and at least acknowledge. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And we wouldn't deny that. And when I say that the folks who look at Deborah are coming with those, they're coming without looking at the Scripture and being willing to be taught differently. Does that make sense? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And everybody does it. That's the thing. And we call it, in our book, thinking evangelistically. 

Kelley Mathews: 

It's a made up word. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

It's a made up word, but it stretches in order to, we need to come to each text honestly, as best we can. Now, we all have our biases and we need to fess up to those and know that. But if something is not in the text at all, and I'll give you an example. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, I was going to ask for one. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

All right. So we say that if a woman, if the church met in her home, then she must have led the church. Well, it doesn't say that. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

No. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I think that's a stretch. And I think everybody needs to come to this with an open mind, an open heart, open eyes, and not come with making it fit a preconceived agenda, or we have this pattern that we have to fit everything into. Honestly, when I look at all of these different women and all these different scenarios, I come out sometimes on one and now sometimes on the other. And we just want to try to be honest and be open and look at it for what's really there. And if we would all do that, I think we might not fight so much over there. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Oh, I love that. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I was just going to say, we wouldn't be so mean about it. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And we wouldn't be mean about it, and call people names. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And impugn on their motives. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And impugn their motives. The things that we do to each other. And in the middle of all the crazy things going on, and we're doing that to each other. It's just- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

It's ungodly. It's not right. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, the thing is, it hurts the cause of Jesus. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

It hurts. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Right. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

What we're really about is everybody, men and women, are so desperate for the Lord. And that's all we focus on. Just the divisiveness just makes me sad. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Well, we're all products of Dallas Theological Seminary, and so part of the motto here is to teach truth and to love well. And so, I'm loving that you ladies are doing that, but then you're speaking to that, the love well part, and how are we doing that when we are being divisive? It's just not representative of Jesus, as you mentioned, as Christian. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

No. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Let me speak to that real quick. I had a church call me a few months ago and say, "Hey, could you come talk to our group. We're wrestling with this issue and we were just trying to get different perspectives, so come talk to us about your book and Q&A." And so I walked in there going, this could get really ugly, or we'll see, right? And it turned out to be wonderful. But what I love so much about the experience is that this group, they come from all different variety of thought and background, and they are together, they're united. I mean, they have their disagreements, but they are at peace with one another. And they're looking at all options and they're trying to discern, what does the Bible tell us? And so the idea of, we come to the conversation with charity thinking that I'm looking at your best motives, I'm expecting the best out of each other, not automatically thinking the worst. And that's the only way you can really have a conversation about this. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's good. You've mentioned some women that you talk about in the book, but I'm just curious about Old Testament women that you personally may resonate with or someone who sticks out to you just personally going forward, before we get to the New Testament. Anybody? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Really, I think we've hit on the ones that I- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Well then, that's fine. That's fine. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I have one. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

You got another one? Okay. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I'm going to go back to Moses, and again, I don't even know if we wrote much about him, but his early life was saved by a bunch of women. So you've got the two midwives, right? In the early, was that Exodus one, where they save his life by lying to Pharaoh and his officials, his mother who sneaks him around as long as she can, she's nursing them. And then his sister. Okay. So he's surrounded by women who birthed him and fed him and saved him and watched over him. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And were insanely brave. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And then Pharaoh's daughter. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, yes. 

Kymberli Cook: 

His mom sets her baby on a river, and his sister- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Since an eight-year-old girl or however old she was. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... potentially with wild animals and all of that, follows. That's pretty incredible. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. And then Pharoah's daughter, I forgot her, who eventually saves him. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

She's a woman too. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Not a small thing either. 

Kelley Mathews: 

There's a full circle. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And then even later in life, his wife Sephora. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Oh, yeah. That's a crazy story. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's a crazy story. 

Kelley Mathews: 

She did. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yeah. I like that. I've never thought of that before. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I hadn't either. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

But yeah, that's all there. There was a lot of love for him from women who were very instrumental, very brave in saving his life. 

So that would, I think, bring us to, if we were even going in order here, to the Proverbs 31 woman. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Okay. All right. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Let it rip. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So yeah, let's talk about talk the Proverbs 31 woman. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Okay, talk about the Proverbs 31 woman. Well, first of all, she's not a real person and that is so, so very helpful. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Refreshing. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Very refreshing. She is not a real person, she is the quintessential king's wife. And actually, King Lemuel who wrote this, learned it from his mother. It's really his mother's idea of what her best daughter-in-law would be. There's so much distortion that has come from this section of this ending of Proverbs, where there'd be people who say, well, all women then need to be married, all women need to have children, all women. But that's not what the Scripture says. And it's wonderful, I'm married, I have kids, I have grandkids, I love them dearly, but the Scripture actually holds that singleness is also an honorable state. And so, when we take that woman and we put her up as a model for every woman, it doesn't fit, first of all. And she's also an aristocrat with a bunch of maids. 

Kymberli Cook: 

A lot of privilege. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

A lot of privilege. And even in the midst of that, she's an honorable woman, but she's in a particular cultural setting. And so it's the kind of thing that we always need to do when we do Scripture, is we take out principles. Now, there are wonderful principles in there. Her main loyalty is to God. She does honor, and she makes sure that her children and her husband are respected and loved and taken care of, which any woman who's married knows that that is absolutely appropriate. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Appropriate. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

It's a beautiful picture. She also works very hard, and she has, you think she has a belt factory, she's got all kinds of projects going. And so to take her and make her the woman that every woman has to be like, which is what some have done with this, and then to set her on this high, she's impossible. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Nobody likes her. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Nobody likes her because she's just a beautiful picture of wisdom. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Right. I was hoping you were going to go there. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah. And we all want to follow that, but it doesn't mean that every one of us has to be every one of those things. And God doesn't actually, I mean, our highest calling for each of us is to be a disciple of Christ. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Amen. 

Kymberli Cook: 

To look like Christ. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

To look like Christ, yes. That is our calling, and that's our first calling. Every single one of us. Some women discern that they want to invest their entire life doing that, because we all know from Corinthians that if you don't, you're going to have other issues, life's going to get complicated. Now, you can choose that. It's wonderful, it's honorable, it's a lovely way to spend your life, if that's what you choose. But it isn't necessarily what every single woman needs to do. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. I think of Proverbs 31 as a list of qualities. Isn't most of Proverbs about character? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And that's what we're looking at. And I would say even men are supposed to read that, not as a, this is the kind of woman I want to marry, but as the kind of person I want to be. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

So just to note, you don't have to be Proverbs 31 woman because it's a poem. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

That's right. And it's not a real person. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Not a real person. It's what to aspire to be. 

Kymberli Cook: 

That's my Bible bookmarks. Here, I'll give you a couple. All right, so New Testament. Sorry. So New Testament, Mary and Martha are two very key women in the New Testament accounts of Jesus. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Everybody knows them. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah, everybody knows them. We've all, or not some generations, but at least my generation and up have seen the flannelgraphs of Mary and Martha. So to me, and at times, I think especially the one account where Mary's with Jesus and Martha's preparing the food and that kind of thing, it seems like maybe they have two different ministries in Scripture. And what are y'all's takes on Mary and Martha's ministries? 

Milyce Pipkin: 

You could do a dissertation about this. People probably have, I'm sure. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So this is just me personally, I don't know that they're really all that different. There are actually two scenes where they really show up together, the famous one where Mary sits at Jesus' feet as a disciple, like any of the men did. And Jesus blessed her for that and was like, don't take that away from her. It doesn't mean Martha didn't listen, right? It is just that she had gifts and a responsibility that she felt for the whole hospitality side of things. And she was just having a rough day, I think, with all these people who showed up, so maybe she wanted some help. 

But if we look at, is it John 11 or 12? I forget, where Lazarus has died. Who shows up first as Jesus approaches? Martha. And she comes to him and she's like, where have you been? If you had come, he would have lived. So she has faith. And then he was like, Martha, and then he weeps with her. And then she makes this declaration of, "You are the Christ, the Son of God, I know you are." And he's like, "I'm the resurrection." She knows her theology, just like Mary does. Okay. So we just don't see it in these two little [inaudible 00:28:29]. And so, I really don't like the way that generally it has been divided so harshly. They're both amazing. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So how would you characterize those ministries? Declarative? They're both disciples, you know what I mean? Just digging into what is it that they were doing as they were ministering in Scripture and in the life and ministry of Jesus. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

They were friends. They were good friends of Jesus. 

Kelley Mathews: 

They shared life with him. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

They shared life with him, and he was in their home often. And they were both godly women. I think Martha was just a little bit more, at that moment- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Working in the background. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

When a bunch of people come into your home and suddenly you think they're hungry, and I want to take care of them. 

Kymberli Cook: 

As a logistics person, I appreciate Martha immensely. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Absolutely. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Even her being like, listen, if you had been here earlier, this is how it all would've worked together. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

But it doesn't mean that she's this homemaker or that's all she is. And I think Jesus was just using this setting to make a point, that women are called to learn, which we often don't think how counter cultural this was. The entire Bible is all about... We have to look at the culture at the time. Men are in charge of everything. Women, they can't testify in a trial, they have very few rights. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Their identity is all connected to their male person. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And their identity is all connected. Even they can't work. They have no way to- 

Kelley Mathews: 

Independently, you mean? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Oh, right. Exactly. They can't. Yes, they work all the time. 

Kymberli Cook: 

All scriptural women might be offended by that. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Right. No kidding. No kidding. But they can't go out and run a shop. And so we have to always consider how scandalous really Jesus was in the way that he treated women. I mean, a Pharisee would not have a woman in the same room at his feet, he wouldn't dream of that. And here she is, and he's actually praising her, blessing her for it. That is just so radical. 

Kelley Mathews: 

And I like the way you said this situation, that he was probably using this example of, calm down, Martha, it's going to be okay, she's actually doing exactly what she needs to be doing. In the sense of showing a contrast between them, not that what you're doing is bad, but what she's doing is actually good. And that was different, counter cultural. Yeah. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I just love the fact that you, Dr. Sue, just brought up the big word learn, women learning, because this to me, I had not thought of it. But yeah, that's important to me because that's like the gift of Jesus for her, is that she is noted for sitting at his feet and learning what it is that he's teaching at that time. And it's okay. And that's what we're doing, that's what women do in seminary. That's why we're here. We're here learning about the love of God, we're here learning about Scripture, we're learning about how to put this into life, practicality and in ministry. 

And so I just wanted to just zoom in and focus on that word because it's a word with huge connotation here in Scripture. I could move on to Priscilla, we've got that coming up. But just talking about the two women and the contrast that rests between them, I'm just wondering, just us sitting here at the table and the contrast that rests between us and the women in the New Testament that we probably, I wouldn't say align yourself with, but someone who sticks out to you in ministry in the New Testament. Can we just go a little bit broader with that? Yeah, there are a couple of them. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Who were you you about to- 

Milyce Pipkin: 

I Love Dorcas. I mean, I love all of them, don't get me wrong, but people just don't talk about her, or Tabitha, in Acts. I mean to me, there were women who prayed for her, who loved her because of the work that she did in ministry, making clothing for the widows and seeing after people, and loving them well. And so long story short, when you look at her story and you see that there were women who prayed for her, and when she passed suddenly, they sent for Peter to come and pray for her. And when he came, he was able to resurrect her through the glory of God. And so, she's that woman. 

She's that woman that we could look at her and say, I would love to be a Dorcas, that people could pray for me and resurrect things within me and take that to the Lord in prayer for me. I even loved the women who loved her well to know to do that, who knew God to do that. And so, that's one of my- women who you don't hear a lot about, but the story is huge and it has a lot, and there's a lot to unpack there with that story. So if you haven't read it, please do. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes, that's right. 

Kelley Mathews: 

We love to pick on Euodia and Syntyche, I probably butchered her name, in Philippians, where Paul is writing and saying, okay, let's get them to agree. I need them to agree to stop disagreeing because they're important to the ministry. And I'm paraphrasing, I don't have my Bible with me, but we like to just go, oh, look, those two gossipy women, those two, they're cat fighting. You can use all the tropes about these two women who are disagreeing that Paul calls them out by name in this communal letter. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Tragically for all of time. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Right. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Don't you love it? 

Kymberli Cook: 

They're probably like, oh, man. 

Kelley Mathews: 

If you don't understand, who were they that they were worth naming? They were leaders in the church and they were his coworkers. And that's a big term he uses, of Timothy and Titus and Silas, coworkers. So when I started looking at that, I was like, oh, so they weren't just these two little troublemakers, they were important to that community, and he needed them to get over whatever was dividing them so they could come back together so that the ministry could move forward. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And how often does that happen, even in the church, right? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, sadly, it does happen. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Yes, I know. I've read one of your books about that, and I've experienced it personally in the ministry, so I know. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Oh my goodness. Well, the woman now, she is not in the corner, we know her well, but I love Priscilla and I love her because... I love that, I mean think about it, she's a tent maker with her husband and with Paul, they have a little business together and can't you just see them sitting around and they are making tents. And of course, Paul is just teaching and talking about Jesus. And she is just a sponge, obviously. And the first time that Priscilla and Aquila are mentioned, it's Aquila and Priscilla, a couple times. And the rest of the times, like six times they're in there, her name is first, which is really interesting. She obviously was a thinker. 

She was the one who, when they confronted Apollos, and that's crazy, when we got into that, we don't know really, what it says is they heard Apollos. She knew, and her husband knew that he was a little confused. He was a powerful orator, he had a great future in the church, and he was extremely later, but he was off on some things. And the passage actually says that Priscilla and Aquila, and her name's first, took him aside. Now, a lot of translations say took him to their home, but that is not in the text, which is very interesting, really. And because the argument is made, well, she was just doing this in private, we really don't know. She could have taken them to their home where a bunch of friends gathered, and that was actually the assembly, because they didn't have church buildings. 

Kelley Mathews: 

That was the church. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

You see, we look at all this and we say, oh, we think of it in terms of our churches. Well, they just have little local houses where they meet. How often do they meet? Maybe they meet every day. Do they have an actual sermon? Maybe not, maybe they just have conversation. Do they just talk? Do women talk too? 

Kelley Mathews: 

Well, we know they do. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

We know they do, yes. Because Paul told them to be quiet sometimes, because they overdid it a little bit. 

Kymberli Cook: 

There it is. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

I was wondering if we were going to go there. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

But really, I mean she was, and that culture and for him, obviously, she was a coworker that he highly respected. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Oh, yeah. He names her so often in different ends of letters and things like that. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. In a culture where this was almost scandalous for a man to have a friend like that. This was a culture where men didn't have friends, women friends. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's good. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. I like her because, I don't know if it's the most empowered thing to say, but I really like her because she ministers with her husband. And my husband and I both, we met in seminary, and he's a teaching pastor, and I'm here at the Hendrick Center and finishing up some doctoral work and that kind of thing. And there's a lot of occasions where he and I get to teach together and that kind of thing. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Oh, that's great. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And we love it. And there's just this dynamic between us. And so, I feel like I look at them and I'm like, ah. 

Kelley Mathews: 

They're a great mom for you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

And I'm probably the bossy one, it would be like, I'm going to take you aside. Theology matters to me, and you're a little off. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And think how God's going to use that in your life. It's wonderful. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yep, yep. I love that she was concerned about theology, you're getting it wrong. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Let us get back to what's the real. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Yes. And that was important to her, obviously. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah, to both of them. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

As our time winds down a little bit, women of God, just want to get an opportunity to ask you guys, you ladies, this question before we wrap things up. How have you personally seen the Lord just show up and show out in your ministries? Do you have a particular... I know this is just something that you're saying, it's like a needle in a haystack. 

Kymberli Cook: 

We've been talking about all of these different ministries of women in Scripture, so your own ministries and how the Lord has used you. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Okay, this is very minor, but I'll go with it. Because I don't have a position in a church, I'm a volunteer leader. We do what we can, that kind of thing. Every now and then I'll teach a Bible study, but I write for RightNow Media, which is a ministry in and of itself. And I blog when I get a little passionate about certain thoughts, I will vent through words, but not spoken. I'll write it out until it feels like, okay, this says what I'm feeling. And then I stick it on my blog and go, okay, well let's see what happens. Okay. And most of the time, it's fine. I might get a little pushback or I might not, but I never really know who sees those because I don't have a huge platform, I don't even really know who knows where my address is. 

So not long ago, this week, I got a little text from a friend that I don't see very often, and she was like, "Hey, I just want you to know, you just keep writing. All your stuff on women is blowing my mind." And I'm like, "What?" Because to me, I've been studying for so long and I think everybody knows this stuff, and they don't. And so that was just a sweet little confirmation. And then she had a question for me, have you seen this? And what do you think of that? But you just don't know who's hearing you, who's seeing your stuff. You guys, keep going. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, and you also did a class on theology in your church last year. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Yeah. That was fun. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I think men were there too. 

Kelley Mathews: 

No, we didn't invite them. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

You didn't invite them. Okay. 

Kelley Mathews: 

Not this time. We had some go, that sounds interesting. We were like, maybe later. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

All right, all right. Okay, okay. 

Kelley Mathews: 

So yeah, it was good. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

What about you, Dr. Sue? 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, I was raised in a non-Christian home. I was a mess. And gosh, if Jesus hadn't found me, and you too, I mean there's a bunch of us around. I didn't know what a flannelgraph was, because I was 24 by the time I even figured out, even started on my road with the Lord. And gosh, He has been so faithful and so good. And there have been times that have been really rough. I was a minister to women in a couple of megachurches. But it all prepared me, I've just looked back now and see that everything God has done has been used and been there to pour into other people. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

That's awesome. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And I love pouring into other people. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

And you ladies, you only have a few minutes left here. But I just want to say that I love that you've poured into me, here in seminary. And so I see how your ministries resonate in women like me everywhere all over, especially for the ones of us who have been blessed to come here to Dallas Theological Seminary. Dr. Sue, you were instrumental in my even getting admitted and taking classes with you and learning how to minister to women and to love women well. And just reading your books and just seeing you live the life has just been a joy to me. 

And then Kelley over here, in my little book, my little manuscript that I've been writing, Kelley's been instrumental through the years of just having helped me with the editing and that kind of thing, and a few of the chapters and that sort of thing. That's not why you're here, but you are here for me to just have an opportunity to publicly say, thank you, thank you. And to dear, sweet Kym here, she too got the Hendrick Center to just take me in and embrace me and give me an opportunity to just podcast here for The Table podcast. It's just been a blessing in my life. So it's just a joy to have three beautiful women whom I get the opportunity to see you live out the love of God in your ministry and in your lives. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

Well, it's a beautiful thing to do ministry together. I think we, in our individualism, our American individualism, we miss so much by not joining together and loving each other well. We need each other. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

We do. 

Dr. Sue Edwards: 

And it's such a joy. I am just grateful to the Lord for the opportunities and the doors that He opens, I think, for anyone who really wants to serve Him. 

Milyce Pipkin: 

Amen. 

Kymberli Cook: 

That's right. What a good way to end, Sue. Look at you, tying a nice little bow on it. Well, our time is up. And we just want to thank you, Kelley and Sue, for being here and for all of the work you put into this study on all of these different women in Scripture. It definitely is a service to the church and we appreciate it. And we want to thank those of you who are listening for joining us today and hanging with us all the way through Scripture and lots of ladies. And we just ask that you be sure and join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture.