The Incredible Calling of the Minister

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, hello there. I'm Bill Hendricks, Executive Director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center, and it's my privilege today to welcome you to The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. Recently, a now-former pastor in the Chicagoland suburb used his final sermon to explain to his congregation why he was leaving not only that church, but pastoral ministry in general, and that caused quite a bit of discussion among us at the Hendricks Center. He cited research from the Barna Group that shows that 42% of pastors, 42% of pastors, have considered quitting within the past year. And among the reasons that Barna noted were the top five, the immense stress of the job, feeling lonely and isolated, current political divisions not simply in the church but in the culture, being unhappy with the effect that that role of pastor has had on their family, or not optimistic about the future of their church. 

And this particular pastor said, "I can relate to all of these, but in particular the top two are the ones that figured heavily into my decision, the stress of the job and feeling lonely and isolated." And then, he said this, which I thought was fascinating. This is his opinion. "Being a pastor is like being a parent. You can imagine what it's like to have a child, but until you're in that role, you cannot fully appreciate what it's like to shoulder the responsibility of caring for a life 24/7." Well, parenting certainly is a calling, but pastoral ministry is also a calling. And while that calling, just like parenting, has significant challenges, it's also a noble calling, and an incredibly important calling. 

We've invited our guests today to talk about that incredible calling that the minister has, and why that calling is worth the commitment. Dr. Kevin Wilson is pastor of Bethel Memorial Church in Princeton, Indiana. He has a bachelor's degree from Southeastern Bible College in pastoral theology and is a graduate ThM from Dallas Theological Seminary. He has also ministered the word in Hungary through the Word of Life Institute, and he contributed a chapter on Ephesians to Dr. Paul Weaver's book, Surveying the Pauline Epistles. Kevin, you're married to your wife of 38 years, Linda, and you have, I understand, three grandchildren, and- 

Kevin Wilson: 

Three children. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Three children. 

Kevin Wilson: 

And one grandchild on the way. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And one grandchild on the way. Congratulations. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Thank you. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And he plays pickleball. So, there you have it. 

Kevin Wilson: 

That's right. There you go. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But we get a double portion of God's spirit today because we also have with us Dr. Stephen Bramer, who is the department chair and professor of Bible Exposition here at Dallas Seminary. Stephen, thank you for joining us. 

Stephen Bramer: 

It's great to be here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

We love to have faculty and particularly faculty from Bible Ex, so thank you for representing your- 

Stephen Bramer: 

Good. Well, we love Bible exposition. We think that's the best. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, there you go. Well, we'll come back to that. But Kevin, tell us a little bit about your own background. I certainly want to jump into these issues that I've raised, but where was growing up, family schooling, and of course, tell us about your own calling to the pastoral ministry. 

Kevin Wilson: 

I was born and raised in Huntsville, Alabama, and my mom and dad were on the front end of a little Bible church plant there. And grew up, my dad was always an elder, most of the time the chairman of the board, I think. So, we had no choice. We were... 

Bill Hendricks: 

You were around. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... around and involved. And, looking back, that has been a huge impact on my life, because I got to see and do a lot of things, maybe not always willingly, but I got experience in that. So, I'm grateful. Came to Christ when I was nine. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Congratulations. That's wonderful. 

Kevin Wilson: 

My dad's persistent question about my faith. And when I went to Sunday school, I rode home with him, and I always had to have an answer, because he would always ask, because he wasn't sitting by me, "What did you learn in Sunday school today?" So, I either had to make up an answer or come up with... And so, this one day in class, got... The conviction of God was just... I'd heard the gospel hundreds of times, growing up, but- 

Bill Hendricks: 

It made sense. 

Kevin Wilson: 

And so he asked me what I learned in Sunday school, and I just started to cry. Nine years old, just started to bawl. He pulled the car over, we're a mile from my house. 

Bill Hendricks: 

He knew something was up? 

Kevin Wilson: 

He just pulled it over right there, and he said, "You need to trust Jesus, don't you?" So, so grateful for his sensitivity, and persistence. So, I grew up in that church, didn't know what I wanted to do. Post high school, went to... Our pastors had come from this little Bible college in Birmingham, Southeastern, and most of the Southeastern's profs had come from Dallas Seminary. And so I knew I could go there and play basketball, sit on the bench, because they didn't hardly cut anybody. And I wasn't very good, but I really loved it. And so I went and went back a second year, knowing I had to make a decision. My folks were gracious, but said, "If you're not doing ministry, we need to get you on a track for a career." So, the second year you have to declare a major and, knowing no better, most of the guys are pastoral theology majors, so I said I'll do that, which means you have to take homiletics. And our professor was a wonderful man, Dr. John Talley was his name. He'd been a Vietnam chaplain. We called him God's bulldog. He would rip- 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'm sure he didn't suffer fools gladly. 

Kevin Wilson: 

No, yeah. He would rip us as young preachers, appropriately so. He would just put us where we belonged. So the end of that year, the call to ministry wasn't fireworks or lightning strikes for me. I walked out of class, homiletics class at the end of my second year and not still knowing what to do. And Dr. Talley followed me out, and then he said, "Stop a minute." And when he talked to you, you pretty much just locked it down. 

And he said, "What are you doing? What do you think God's got for you?" And I said, "Dr. Talley, I have no idea." And this is the man that had taken my sermons apart and bled all over my papers. He said, "I think the Lord is calling you to be a pastor." And I just stood there for a bit and I went back and picked up the phone and called my folks and I said, "Mom, dad, I think God wants me to be a pastor." And so, God used him, a man like Dr. Bramer does, in my life to really just push me to where I think God wanted me to go. I'm so grateful. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And I take it, because of that exposure at Southeastern and the professors from DTS, then when it was seminary time, it was like, well- 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah. My dad said, "No options." he was not a minister, but he loved and he knew, he knew and had read, taught Sunday school forever. He said, "You're going to Dallas Seminary." 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Kevin Wilson: 

I didn't argue with him. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Sure. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Grateful to come. So, my wife and I marry, going to honeymoon, come back to Dallas, we don't know a soul, and we jump into seminary here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Is that where you met Stephen? 

Kevin Wilson: 

No, I only know Dr. Bramer- 

Bill Hendricks: 

How did you guys meet? 

Kevin Wilson: 

Go ahead. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Well, he knows my son in Hungary. So he went to- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Oh, that's right. He went to Hungary to- 

Stephen Bramer: 

We met there. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah. I met Stephen in Hungary, and I watched Dr. Bramer preach. Our assistant pastor is a 2006 grad, Kyle Powell, and he sings Dr. Bramer's... He really loves Dr. Bramer. So, there was this sermon on Jehoshaphat I listened to I was really encouraged by, and so I was grateful to get to meet him personally. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So, you guys got to know each other? 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah, we just met and- 

Stephen Bramer: 

We're getting to know each other, yeah. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... we're getting to know each other now. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's great. 

Kevin Wilson: 

So, married my wife, come to DTS. I mentioned in chapel today, our oldest was born here, 35 years old, has special needs. So, really just turned our world just upside down. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Sure. 

Kevin Wilson: 

I tell folks, and of course nobody ever plans to have a child with- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Special needs. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... special needs. And so she has taught me inordinate things about life and ministry. So she's with us, 35 years old, has a wonderful ministry of encouragement to so many people. Humble- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Praise God. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... servant of God, I call her. Kind of one of my heroes, really, in the ministry. And we have a daughter who is married to a young man that just took a pastorate part-time, pastorate just north of us. Really thrilled about that. And my son is a physical therapy assistant and does worship for us in the church part-time. So they're all kind of around. I'm so blessed to have them close and loving the Lord. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Kevin, when you had that special needs daughter, did that affect your call to ministry? Your life is changing, and there's going to be uniquenesses. Did that affect your call? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Great question. 

Kevin Wilson: 

To be honest, really, as things happened, my wife taught in Christian school down south of Dallas, was pregnant before the school year started. So they said, "We can't keep you. We got to have a teacher that's going to make the school year." So she was laid off, she was our prime. So I went to work at UPS at night, loading tractor trailers and did seminary in the daytime. So one thing that happened to me during that season when Audrey came was God knew I was really immature. I really needed to grow up. And so working at UPS at night and doing seminary in the day grew me up quickly, because it was just- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Lots of responsibility. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... survival, and kind of grinding it out. And then Audrey comes, and to be honest, when she's born with the needs, my questions to God, "Why would you do that? It's pretty hard right now, Lord." And of course there was no clarity for the answer to that question, except I knew a lot of theology and Bible by that time, and it was "You need to start to practice, what you've been taught and know to be true. You need to lean on me." And God was just so faithful. So in some ways, I think having her and walking through that, while it was hard, maybe firmed up that call, that if God is going to be faithful to our family in that circumstance, which he was, He's going to be faithful in ministry and to those that are hurting. And so she's allowed us a platform to minister that we would've never had without her. So really grateful for that. God took us here to the middle of nowhere, I call it, to the Texas panhandle, an hour north of Amarillo. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yes, that is. 

Kevin Wilson: 

And I was there in a wonderful little church for five years as a youth. The second guy on staff, learned a lot, sweet people. And then we moved from there to where we are in Princeton, Indiana, at Bethel Memorial Church. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And Princeton down on the southern... 

Kevin Wilson: 

Just north of Evansville, 

Bill Hendricks: 

...border, right? 

Kevin Wilson: 

... down in the southwestern corner. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, southwestern corner. Yeah. So we're talking about calling, you're here focused on calling with some of the lectures you're giving and so forth. How do you guys define calling? That's a word that gets thrown around a lot. And we as theologians I think managed to really confuse that term. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yeah, I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren assemblies, and calling was not really mentioned, because people didn't go into the ministry at 20-something years of age. The people who were full-time workers were 40 or 50 and they had learnt the scripture. So it was kind of a new term to me when I started hearing about calling, but I knew that I needed to do what the Lord wanted me to do. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And there was no going forward at a meeting or anything like that, a just growing sense that God had called me. And in the brethren I couldn't go into the pastorate, because they didn't have pastors. 

Kevin Wilson: 

They didn't. 

Stephen Bramer: 

So I got a chance to either go and work at a summer camp or become a teacher, and I love teaching, and so that was the direction that God took me. It was a confirmation over a number of years at school that finally I knew that this is what God had for me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. How about you? 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah, I would say the same. I know people give all kind of descriptions about experience. God spoke to me in this way or that way, and I don't disparage that because I wasn't there. For me, I think more it's you pursue your giftedness humbly and stay close to the Lord and allow him to... Proverbs 3 says, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and don't lean on your own understanding," which I'm really good at, but if we acknowledge him and follow him, He's going to direct our path. My experience was that's exactly what God used some people in my life to speak into. I was trying to follow, but I wasn't sure. And some people, by God's grace, saw some things in me that helped me take that next step. And so it was more a process of just trying to follow the Lord. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you mentioned Dr. Talley's influence, and I, as you know, grew up in a Christian home, been part of a church since nine months before I was born. So this issue of calling has been around from the get-go. And I'm not asking people to necessarily buy this, I'm just saying how I've thought about it now over many years, and particularly through the lens of my specialization, which is people's giftedness. And it works like this. You say, well, does God speak audibly to people? I don't want to really so much get into that debate, but I think most of us, if somebody came to us and said, "Hey, this morning there was this conversation that I had with God and he said this..." And we'd be thinking, "Well, maybe we need to get you over to the counseling department, to check those voices out." 

But in recent decades, I've come to think, I actually think that God does speak through voices, but it's actually human voices, that he actually uses certain people and their gifts. And one of those gifts or a dimension of that gift is to see in someone that which indeed God has put in them. So in your case, Dr. Talley says, "Son, I think God's calling you into the pastorate." Now, he's summarizing a whole lot of observations there, right? And hearing you give your first faltering sermons and so forth. But he's going, "This kid's got potential. This kid's got a gift. This kid's got something that we look for when we say you should be a pastor." And so in one sense, by him speaking up, God is using him to direct your paths as the proverb says. And it sounds like it was very effective. 

Kevin Wilson: 

In my life, what you just defined is pretty much the story. It also makes me mindful as I speak into other people's lives, especially the ones that are considering the ministry that, and I don't know how God going to use it, but it's not insignificant. I mean, it can have impact. And so I'm grateful for that, and also a little taken aback sometimes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, there's a tremendous responsibility that goes... You say something, somebody's liable to take you seriously. And yet, when you see someone who the light comes on in their eyes and they go, "Wow, I hadn't thought of that, but maybe you're right," and then they go forward and they lean into it and God shows up and the gift, the Holy Spirit inhabits their gift and there's fruit, what a joy to feel like you unleash something for the kingdom. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And so many people have giftedness that could go into ministry, but that could be used in so many ways. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Many other options. Exactly. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And so there is that pull sometimes, especially in our culture that's going to emphasize getting ahead and financial benefits and everything, to say, "Well, I'm going to go and serve the Lord," and realizing that this is not what all my friends will be going into, who we've grown up together." I think it's a real challenge. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It is. Kevin, you have used the phrase, it stuck out to me, "incredible calling." Now I've heard many people talk about, "Oh, so-and-so has a, quote, incredible ministry," meaning lots of people have responded to their preaching or they've sold a lot of books, or they're a popular conference speaker, that sort of thing. I haven't heard that word incredible connected to the word calling, and it makes me think you see something at least different if not more important there. What makes a calling incredible? 

Kevin Wilson: 

Right, right. So we are doing Colossians 1 where Paul in the Chapter 1 kind of talks about he's elevating Christ in the book and he talks about his ministry and just how... I just think what greater calling is there, than to, in whatever forum, to teach the word, present Christ, point people to God, encourage them in their walk with him. And when it's all said and done, there's nothing. My brother's an attorney, very successful. And sometimes, growing up, you go, what am I doing? What exactly? Because running on two different tracks in just about every facet of life, but as God's given me some time, and I don't do this perfectly, but perspective is a wonderful thing. I'm thinking there's nothing... I'm so grateful for God's calling on my life. And I'm not a famous anyone and I live in Southern Indiana, but I'm so thankful for the calling to preach God's word and shepherd his people. I'm really grateful for that. 

Stephen Bramer: 

I was thinking of Amos, love Amos. I did my dissertation on him, and he's up there and the Northern King speaking and they tell him to go back where you came from and earn your wages there from prophesying. And he said, "I don't need to go back and earn wages. I was a herdsman or a shepherd and dresser of sycamore, but the Lord took me, and he called me." he rests authority not in his gifts or talents, although they were there obviously for him to speak in such a remarkable way, but the calling of the Lord. And I don't know how that happened for Amos, but he was aware that he was serving the Lord God and a steward of whatever the Lord was asking him to speak. And so I love Amos. The Lord took me. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Sure. Sometimes it's that sense of calling that keeps you in the ministry. I think I've read this book- 

Bill Hendricks: 

I wanted to get to that. Thank you. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... that you read. Because it is hard. It's a struggle. And in our world, it's very difficult. And sometimes, what keeps you in it is the fact that God's called you to it, and you're convinced of that. You may not be convinced that you can make it through the next week, or the next counseling session or board meeting or whatever comes, but you're convinced that God's called you, and sometimes, that strengthens you enough to step forward and just to continue another foot, another day, another message. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And our spouses play such a great part. Sometimes, they remember our calling better than we do because we're in the midst of all this craziness and pandemic and everything. But they know that we were called, one of the reason they probably married us, our spouses, because they wanted to be involved in ministry. They wanted to make a difference in this life. I know that from my wife Sharon. And so we need to remember it. We need to have good friends and a good spouse who reminds us of that wonderful calling. 

Kevin Wilson: 

So great to have somebody that will speak the truth to you that loves you. And sometimes it's settled down. My wife sent me a text this morning, I'm speaking in chapel at Dallas Seminary, a little nervous about that. And she says, "Remember, it's not your performance. It's God's presence." 

Bill Hendricks: 

Praise God. Praise God. 

Kevin Wilson: 

You're like, "Okay." So she can bring stability when I get out of balance. Absolutely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I'm glad, Stephen, you raised this issue of wives and spouses and calling. I guess the question I was going to ask you guys was the spouse, let's say in this case a guy who's a pastor, or called the pastorate, he's got his wife. So does she need to be called as a pastor's wife? Is it like a dual calling? Like I'm calling both of you into this form of endeavor, which is going to place certain expectations and responsibilities and challenges on your spouse here? Does she need to feel like, "Yeah, that's what God has for me?" 

Kevin Wilson: 

That's not how it worked for me. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Good, good. 

Kevin Wilson: 

My wife is not the upfront lady's ministry leader. Whenever she knows the church is going to do something for us and she'd have to come up on the platform, she tries to work in the nursery that Sunday, so she doesn't have to. She loves the church, but her niche are children and she's the most creative teacher I've ever met. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, and you get into the issue of gifting there. I know many, many women who make wonderful wives through pastors have zero interest in being on a platform, and many of them even want to be sort of out of sight. I guess where I was really going was just the calling to be with this person who's going to be in the hot seat, who's going to get the calls in the middle of the night, who's going to feel that stress of just like this guy said, it's like children, 24/7, I'm on. I got to take responsibility for this flock. Is she prepared or just feel called that I will walk with this partner in that? 

Kevin Wilson: 

I don't know that she would say she had a call of God to be a pastor's wife. She would say her story is she came to Bible college to play basketball, which she was much better than I was, and to marry a good Christian guy. Not necessarily a pastor, but just a godly man. And eternity will tell whether she actually did that or not, but I think by the time we're serious, she knows that that's where, as God's leading us forward, "I think we're headed here." And so her calling would be to me, I think as my wife, that if I'm going to go be in ministry, she's going to have to follow and be a part of that in whatever way God will give her the grace. And neither one of us knew, of course, 

Bill Hendricks: 

All that was coming. 

Kevin Wilson: 

... what all that was coming, but we had to be willing to step in it together with the Lord. And she's been a great blessing to me in that. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yeah, I've got a very similar story. Met my wife in Bible college. She did want to marry a person who was in love with Jesus and in love with the Word, because she was in love with Jesus and the Word, and it wasn't really whether it was going into ministry. I think she was pretty excited when she realized that we were dating and that that's where I was headed. But similar to you, Kevin, her call was to support me. And I know that that sometimes sounds kind of funny in our world today, but she really was committed to me. She's so committed to me that she will call me on things and make me not do ministry sometimes because she really is concerned about me and my health. And when I came to Dallas Seminary back in '97, all these living legends walking around including your dad, How Hendrickson, and I remember coming home a number of nights and saying to her, "What if they find out who I really am?" 

She'd say, "You've got to stop saying that. They're going to think you're hiding something." And I said, "But I can't do this." And she looked at me real clearly and said, "Stephen, they've called you because you're Stephen Bramer, and you just need to be Stephen Bramer with what God has given you. And if that isn't a fit for Dallas Seminary, that's okay. We'll move on somewhere else." I just remember relaxing. The first time I went to preach here, Sharon said, "What are you going to preach on?" I said, "well, I've been through all 66 books, and someone has written a commentary on every one of them. So I'm into the apocrypha now." We laughed together, but once again, you're not comparing ourselves to others, just asking the Lord to give us a message from his Word. And she's been a real encouragement that way, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, both of you now have articulated that in the dark nights of the soul, which ministry does have like probably so many other occupations, but we certainly know what those are, you have a companion come alongside and say, "Honey, let's go back to square one. Who called you into this? And don't you remember how you agonized in your soul about it and you prayed about it and you got godly counsel and you chose, we chose this path? And if God said that in the light, don't doubt him in the darkness." That's essentially what you've said. What a joy that would be. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah, it's been the anchor, outside the Lord obviously, but on a human level, my wife has been my rock to speak sensibly when I maybe make no sense or get so flustered, I don't know exactly what to do. Grateful for that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Because Lord knows, and I even hate to say it, but again, having grown up here at the seminary, I do know too many stories of people who came to seminary, and he was all in for expository preaching and the languages and pastoral ministry and the whole thing, but she was not, and it affected their marriage while they were in seminary, but that just... It was like a fuse, because once you get out into the fray and you're actually in harness and those stresses start to come and challenges, boy, it's like a sword of Damocles just sitting there, because as soon as there's a crisis, you can just hear her voice going, "Well, I never wanted to do this in the first place." And unfortunately, not all of those marriages have survived. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Exactly. And the sacrifice that is required to be in ministry is significant, and it's sometimes very significant in terms of traveling and how you use your money. And if your spouse and even your children as they grow up aren't on board, saying, "This is important," Even your kids don't understand it all, but they know daddy's doing it for Jesus, those are extremely important times to have where a wife needs to be on board, she's at home with young children and you're traveling or speaking at a conference or something, and really the burden is on her. And if she's not called, not to specific ministry, but called to make sure that God's word is proclaimed and the gospel's preached, it would be difficult. And I'm sure it is difficult. I know it's been difficult for my wife at times, and that's when I've needed to remind her that together we chose this ministry. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And that's really my point. I'm not saying some woman doesn't... like pastoral wife's not what I want, but- 

Stephen Bramer: 

The support. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's not something wrong with her. 

Stephen Bramer: 

No. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But I do think that together they're going to have to make some hard choices. 

Kevin Wilson: 

There are. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And it may be, well, maybe God's not calling me in the ministry. If he's not giving you a peace about walking with me through that, then does that raise some questions about what I've perceived as a call? Because I got to be sensitive to my wife. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah, absolutely. It's a team thing. It is. 

Bill Hendricks: 

In that sense, yeah. 

Kevin Wilson: 

It is. So if someone says, "I'm not in," then I think you've got to really, really pause and take stock of a lot. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And many women are not being challenged with that these days. I mean, as they go off to university, I mean, it's very individualistic for all of us, and long as it works out that two of us can live together, we're headed in the right direction. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's a "What's in it for me?" culture, right. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And I think in the Christian world, both women and men, we're coming with this, and yet ministry doesn't work that way. So unless the word of God can come in with good, wise advice from people and change our hearts that we really become one and are headed in the same direction using our gifts as God's given, it's difficult. I really feel for younger people going into ministry today because they need to know so much more than I do because the world's so complicated, and people aren't always wanting to hear truth from the Word. There's stress, and so it is harder, I think, for younger men going in today, and yet they've got such tremendous opportunities. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, that's what I wanted to come to. Because certainly there's the Barna statistics, and at times it can get very distressing. But what I don't hear as much on is, and I'd love to hear from both of you because of your experience, and the guys that you know. what would you say are the two to three... I know this is almost impossible to rank, but I'm really trying to get at what are the upsides of pursuing a calling to the pastoral ministry? What is most laudable noble worth, praising God and rejoicing in that you get to do because of that occupation? 

Kevin Wilson: 

Wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Or you get to experience? 

Kevin Wilson: 

Sure. Being a pastor allows me to study and teach and proclaim his Word, which is living and powerful and active and life-changing by his Spirit. So we live in a world that has a lot of moving parts and all kinds of things that people... But God's word is still what changes people in eternal ways. And again, that's a privilege, to be able to study and to teach the word of God, and then to love people and to do life with them, that's not easy and it's messy and can be heartbreaking at times. But the upside for me is there's those times, but there's a lot of the other times where you get to cry with them in a good way or laugh with them or celebrate or to watch them grow and change over time. I'm so thankful God's given us longevity in the ministry in this one place where we, by God's grace, have seen him just working families and in our community in some really significant ways. 

So that gives me great joy. Those would be, and that sounds really simple. I remember when I went to this church 28-plus years ago, I sat down with a man who knew the church and he was a pastor. And in a real quick conversation, "I said, so what do they need? What do they need?" Here's what he said. He said, "They need somebody that's going to teach the Bible, and is going to really love them with all they have." And I thought, "Well, I went to Dallas Seminary. I think I can teach the Bible, and by God's grace, I think I can love them." And those 28 years later would probably be the two things I enjoy the most about ministry. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I mean that dovetails with everything in scripture that talks about certainly the pastor role of being a shepherd. You provide for your people, you feed them and you protect them, and you help them grow, and you're right there with them, and they know your voice. Jesus said, "You know my voice," they get to know their pastor's voice, and that is a blessing. And I guess you've been at this church long enough to see that that extends through generations, which is great. 

Kevin Wilson: 

It's a great blessing to see, have a wedding, and they're- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Just as there's generational sin, there's generational grace. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah. And there is generational sin and there's cycles of evil. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But you can break that and then introduce grace. 

Kevin Wilson: 

But yeah, God can and just what He's done, and it is his power, it's his spirit, it's his word. But again, that he allows us to have a part in that and a voice in that. His voice to share is a great blessing. Really, really privileged. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Stephen, what would you say? 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yeah, sometimes say, 

It's nice to be paid to study the Word. And I say to my students, "I'd probably do it even if they didn't pay me, but don't go and tell the president of Dallas that, because I do need to eat. 

Bill Hendricks: 

We'll edit that out. 

Stephen Bramer: 

I agree with Kevin. The Word and seeing people's lives change. And because the ministry that I'm in here at Dallas, also at a local church where there's a multi-pastor church, the relationships you have with other people in the ministry, that may not always be possible, but in most places, you can have a really good relationship with others who are ministering in the same way, facing some of the same challenges, and have a fellow pastor who can share his wisdom, not in competition with him, but just in him loving you and wanting you to do best. That's been a tremendous blessing in my life to have faculty members who love on me. I preached in chapel recently, and people say, "Well, aren't you nervous about the other professors there?" And I say, "Well, tell you the truth, I am a little bit, but they're almost always the most encouraging afterwards." Because- 

Kevin Wilson: 

Wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Your biggest cheerleader. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yeah, and they love the Word, and it's so nice to see them with their bibles and they want... I know when I go to places, I want to be fed. I'm not there to criticize. And so it's been a wonderful experience for me to have other people in the ministry that I'm close to. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Let me ask a question that I suspect may be a hot button. We call your department the Bible Exposition department. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And I look out across the landscape of certainly the American church today. It is my perception, correct me if I'm wrong, I hope I am wrong, but is my perception that in many, many quarters, and unfortunately in increasing numbers of churches, expository preaching is sort of viewed as, "Oh, that's kind of old school. We don't really need that anymore." Or- 

Stephen Bramer: 

Too academic. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's too academic, and it's not relevant. It's not going to meet people's needs. It's not going to draw people. It's not going to hold people. How do y'all respond to that? I think I know, but what is the response here? 

Kevin Wilson: 

You go first, Dr. Bramer. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yeah. Well, I just think as we've been talking, the Word of God changes people's lives, and- 

Bill Hendricks: 

There's power in it. 

Stephen Bramer: 

It's not my opinion, and we were talking a little bit earlier, I'm not creative enough to come up with a new topic every week. I like to work with good material. And the 66 books are good. And Dallas Seminary from the very beginning said, "We want our graduates to have studied all 66. Now we can't do them in great depth, but to be aware of what's in there. And it seems to me that gives you a broad ministry. And I say to some of our students, "It is possible to bore people with the word of God. We got to work really hard at that because it's alive, and if we don't show the relevancy of it, then of course it can become boring." But nothing like going through the Word, chapter after chapter, book after book, because it doesn't grow churches quickly, but it grows them deep and solid. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's good. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And a lot of the churches that they're trying to start, they want to start with a bang, and what you attract them with is what you kind of have to keep them with. And people get used to fast food and everything prepared for them. They become a consumer. And to call people to a meal, and to have to think and evaluate and be like the Bereans, search the scriptures themselves, it seems to me that that grows the church deep. And it's not what the church is after two or three years. It's what it is after 20 years, to find out if people have grown deep, and I think it's the Word of God. Exposure to the Word of God, consistently, chapter by chapter, you can't miss anything. You can't skip over anything. It's there. And I believe that God's Word is relevant, not only when it was written, it's relevant for all time. It's inspired. And therefore, if we give them the Word, it will meet people's needs. It will meet people's needs. 

Kevin Wilson: 

No, I was just going to... I think Chip Ingram was here last year, I think, and I listened to that message. One of the quotes, I believe, from when he was here was, "It's not how many people come in, it's what kind of people go out." And I thought, that is a great quote. I mean, we can attract people with maybe a lot of things, but what difference has it made? And God's word makes a difference. Jesus makes a difference, and his spirit grows people by his word, and it's written, line by line, paragraph by paragraph, and that's how it should be taught. And then God does what he does. 

Stephen Bramer: 

That's the way we read books. We start the beginning and we go through, and each chapter makes a contribution. And just to jump around in a book, you might get something out of that sentence or something, but it's not in context. And so exposition is just trying to really expose what the truth of the scripture is, what the meaning is, and it's best to be done in context. And so we're trying to teach our students that this is what our world needs, and I believe it is. We want to teach truth and love well around here, but we do need to teach truth, and we need to teach truth that will last. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, what I hear you guys saying is we've got this text that God has given us in the Bible, and yeah, it's in a couple of different languages at least that we don't speak. And so we've got to translate, and yeah, is a different era when these cultures lived, and you need some translation contextually. So there's some challenge there. But what I hear you saying is, but if you get it, if you get what's in this thing, if you get what this is saying, there's a power in it that will change your life for the better, for the way that God says is the way of life. That's what I hear you saying, 

Stephen Bramer: 

And- 

Bill Hendricks: 

And that's... 

Stephen Bramer: 

And for all the- 

Bill Hendricks: 

... expository preaching. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Yeah. And for all the differences, I say God knew that his Word was going to be translated into many different languages, and he knew this word had to be relevant to many different cultures and societies. The 20th century doesn't surprise God. A ministry in China doesn't surprise God. So I believe that he's given us his word in such a way that even without knowing a great deal of background, even without knowing the original language, as long as it's been translated very accurately, this word can be read in different languages and in different cultures, and it can change people's lives. To know what we should believe and how we should act is clear. And to get into some of the minor points is not helpful, but the Word, I think, is clear, and we just need to preach it. We just need to let it go. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Well, and my dad just talk about the problem that we saw when we major in the minors. It's those issues that frankly are so in the backwaters of the essence of the gospel and Christian living and what Jesus taught, and yet we magnify them as this divides churches. This is what we're willing to die... this is the hill we're willing to die on. This is what we write books on and have conferences on. And meanwhile, particularly, I think, of so many of the portions of the epistles that be kind to one another, love one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other as I've forgiven you, be one in mind, prefer others... their interest's more important than your own. It sounds simple, but that's like the majors as it were, that flow out of all of that rich doctrine that we have in the other parts of the epistles. 

Stephen Bramer: 

And all those minor things, God spoke about them, so they're valuable. And I think when you're doing exposition, they just fit in properly. It's only when you kind of pull them out of the passage it can become a real point of contention. But when you're reading it within the context, it makes sense in the context. Now we can misapply it or something like that, but it seems to me that solution to a lot of this is just going through the Word, going through the Word. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Yeah, I agree. So the great thing about teaching expositionally is you're going to deal with issues that you'd rather not, but they do fit in the greater context of the Book and the Scripture that it doesn't stand on its head if you pull out a one sermon on, "Hey, today we're going to talk about this crazy issue that divides people." People come and leave without hearing the rest of the story, which is going to emphasize there's a God who's real, there's a savior who saves. And this issue fits in to some argument and context in the book, where it really does fit. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So I want to come back to the issue we started with on calling in the time we have left. So I'm thinking about young Timothy there in the New Testament and Ephesus, and reading between the lines, you get the sense that he was a timid person to begin with, maybe shy, certainly not a dominant personality. We don't know anything really, I guess, about his dad. So maybe he didn't have a dad. Maybe that contributed to things, I don't know. But it's clear that Paul had been that Dr. Talley to him, and said, "Timothy, I want you to be a pastor here in Ephesus. I believe God's called you to that. In fact, I'm going to lay hands on you, and impart that grace and that calling." 

And then even after being in that role, it's clear, hey, don't let anybody look down on your youth. Timothy sounds like he had some doubts, like so many pastors apparently are having these days. So I'd be curious, Kevin, your thoughts on how do we call young people into the pastorate, and how do we help those who are, once in it, beginning to have doubts, saying, "I don't know, man, I'm not sure this is for me. I don't think I have what it takes. I'm not sure I want to give it what it's taking. Maybe this isn't for me." 

Kevin Wilson: 

I think young people, we've had some young men come through, and that's been one of the joys of my life, is to have a young guy go, "I think God's got ministry in my future." And so for us, in our context, it's been... And of course our church is not... We're not a mega church, so we can rally around those guys. And I grew up in a church of about a hundred, that got smaller every year as people passed away, and I was kind of their project. I was headed to Bible college, and so good and bad, they'd say, "How are you doing? I'm praying for you," or "You better be studying." 

We need to encourage those young people, and we need to find out what's going on and pray for them and really try to walk alongside them in that process, because it's easy to get distracted, it's easy to get discouraged. So for young people, I would say it's just investing and keeping your finger on the pulse of what God's doing in their life. 

For guys in the ministry that are struggling, sometimes... Dr. Bramer mentioned having contemporaries and peers. I think that's... 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's key. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Because if somebody might recognize in me that I'm struggling before most anybody else, and so if I have somebody attentive, they can call me aside and encourage me, pray with me, and maybe helped me realize what I need which may be to step back. Maybe I need a month out, maybe I need six months out. But if I don't have that person and I'm continuing to grind and push, sometimes that's when the wheels come off, and I just step out like this fella. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you for being in this conversation today. This has gone fast, but it's a critical topic. I agree that the pastorate is a very high calling, a very noble calling, because as pastors go, churches go, without solid pastors, it's hard to have a solid congregation, seems to me, notwithstanding the Plymouth Brethren background you came from. 

Stephen Bramer: 

Well, they're changing too. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you may not have had formal pastors, but you had people in the role of pastor. 

Stephen Bramer: 

The elders knew the Word and preached the Word. It was wonderful. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I don't want to get into the ecclesiological governance of the whole thing, but you take the point. Thank you for being with us. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Oh, thank you, Bill. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Thank you for being in Dallas and letting us talk with you, Kevin. 

Kevin Wilson: 

Oh, it's been an honor. Appreciate it. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Stephen, again, thank you, 

Stephen Bramer: 

Thank you, Bill, for having me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

... for representing the department. And I want to thank you for joining us today on The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. You may know a pastor who is struggling in their calling right now, and this would be a great podcast for you to send them a link to. And we would certainly encourage you to subscribe to The Table podcast at whatever subscription service that you have. We come out weekly with a new Table podcast on yet another topic of God and culture. So thanks again for being with us, and for the Table Podcast, I'm Bill Hendricks.