The Impact of The Chosen Series

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Darrell Bock, executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendricks Center here at Dallas Theological Seminary. And my guest today is Stan Jantz, who leads Come and See in its mission to share the authentic Jesus with 1 billion people, that's a lot of folks, and it's bigger than most church services I've ever been in. And after serving as president of one of the nation's largest Christian bookstores, he began a writing career that has produced 75 books with more than 4 million copies sold. 

He served in leadership roles with several Christian publishers, and as president of the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, he served 25 years on the board of trustees at Biola University. He and his wife Karen just celebrated their 50th anniversary, and just found out about that. He lives in Huntington Beach, California, deeply involved with Bayside Church in Orange County, and they have two children. So Stan, welcome, but if I say Come and See, most people will say, "well, what in the world is that?" But if I say The Chosen, I bet they will understand why we're talking to you. So two questions, what is a nice guy like you doing in a gig like this? And then secondly, explain the relationship between Come and See and The Chosen. 

Stan Jantz: 

Thank you, Dr. Bock, it's a pleasure to be with you. And yeah, what am I doing? My whole life has been around Christian content. As you said in your intro, I was involved in Christian book selling for years and years and then got involved in Christian publishing. I've written some books and so it's all content. God is the great producer of content. He obviously got the Bible and he speaks every day through his Holy Spirit and through nature and all of that, and so content is king. And so here I am, I'm just sitting around looking for my next assignment and I got a call from Mark Green. Mark is the board chair of Come and See and I'll explain Come and See in just a minute. And he says, "Hey, I'm going to come out and talk to you about something." I didn't know what it was, but two weeks before I had seen the very first episode of The Chosen, had never seen it before. 

Now, you've got to note something about me. Growing up in a Christian bookstore environment, and I later ran the stores for 25 years, I was around a lot of Christian media. We had from 16 millimeter films the churches used to show on Sunday night and then video, and I was never really all that impressed with what Christian media was doing. Now, the greater good is you're talking about the gospel and you're presenting that and you're telling stories of people who come to faith, but the quality just lacks. So, I was reluctant. I'd heard of The Chosen and had never seen it, but I got invited. Biola University sponsored a special showing of episode one of season one and they invited me to go, so I went and I was so impressed, and I've talked to many people who feel the same way. This was a different level of quality in storytelling. 

And after that, two weeks after that, I got this call, and so we got together, not knowing what the other was going to talk about, but I started gushing about The Chosen, what a fantastic series it was telling the story. And I'd only seen one episode, but I said it's so authentic, it's real, it's biblical. And then Mr. Green had this wry smile on his face, he says, "Well, that's what I'm here to talk to you about. We're going to start a nonprofit that will assist and help in The Chosen, making sure that all seven seasons get made and that it's translated into 600 languages and that it remains free for all. So, that's what Come and See does. We are the nonprofit, we've come alongside The Chosen, and our goal is to reach 1 billion people with the authentic Jesus, the Jesus from scripture, but a Jesus that we can relate to and that is real and he is living. 

And so, we are now in our second year, and we came along after the first three seasons we're done, but now season four of course has been in theaters, it'll soon be in the app, and streaming after that. And right now they're in production on season five. So, we're on a fast moving train and it's great to be a part of it, but we are so grateful that more than 100,000 people have given to Come and See for the purpose I just gave you to reach those billion people and use The Chosen as a way to do that. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, I heard about Come and See at an event that I was at last November in which we were actually discussing the church and its witness in the world in which there was a segment dedicated to media and what was going on with Chosen and Come and See was introduced to us. I was there with about 200 other Christian leaders and something the Barna Group hosted in Fort Worth. And the moment I heard it, I went, "Well, this is pretty interesting." It's an immense vision, to put the amount of media material that is being produced for the series into 160 different languages, which does a pretty good job of blanketing most of the world is a huge assignment. So, let's talk a little bit about what that takes and then I'll come back to The Chosen. Have you started in on translating in any of the languages already and where does that sit? 

Stan Jantz: 

Dr. Bock, it's even greater. It's actually 600 languages. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Stan Jantz: 

So, it's never been done. Now, The Jesus Film has been in over 1,000 languages, but we're talking a single two-hour movie. The Chosen has eight episodes per season, and eventually there will be seven seasons. We're talking 56 episodes, multiple characters throughout, so it's an immense job and it's never been done at this scale with a TV series like this. 

Darrell Bock: 

So if I'm doing the math real quick, what is that, 560 hours of recording or thereabouts? 

Stan Jantz: 

Exactly, some are a little less than an hour, so 50 hours would be real close. And the thing of it is too though, because you have these multiple characters and those of you, your listeners have watched The Chosen, in any given episode, there may be 10, 12, 15 characters. Even in a typical TV show, you may have eight to 10 it would be max. So, they have way more than that. And so when you're talking about the translation, and this is... I'm learning so much about it, but God has blessed us. We have a gentleman in place, his name is Rick Dempsey. He worked for Disney for 35 years. He's a believer, worked for Disney for 35 years, overseeing all of their translation, and what they call localization for the Disney feature films and animated features. And what localization means, and you would know this in terms of being a Bible scholar, when you translate something, it isn't just a matter of say, "Okay, what's the language? We're going to put it in that language and then we're good to go." 

There are idioms, there are nuances, there are phrases that don't necessarily translate like that word for word. You have to be able to get a sense of what that language will do with that script. So, we work with subject matter experts, and these are typically pastors who are in country or they could be theologians who are in a particular country, particular language, they review then the initial translated copy, which has not yet been dubbed or even subtitled and give us feedback and responding to, will this play in Ethiopia or in Brazil or in Nigeria or India? And of course, India's got 40 languages just by itself. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right, yeah. 

Stan Jantz: 

You have to be able to do this. These subject matter experts are of vital importance, and then the process of either dubbing or subtitling, sometimes both, but we think at the end of the day we'll have about of those 600 languages, about 100 will be fully dubbed, and then all of them will have subtitles as needed. And we already are seeing... We've already done 50 languages for seasons one through three. We just hit a milestone just about 10 days ago and hit that number, and it's an extraordinary task. And again, were it not for the professionals that do this language dubbing and that kind of thing, plus the volunteers, the subject matter experts, we just couldn't do it. 

But I was just in Brazil two weeks ago, they did a national premiere for season four, episodes one and two, so it's like a season four premiere. And so, we did the dubbing into Brazilian Portuguese, and then they showed it in a theater for the premiere, and then it opened in 600 languages that following weekend, and the reports that came back as they were very pleased with the quality and the level of the dub, because there's nothing worse than a bad dub that can detract from a really good film or TV show. 

And so, they were very pleased in that, but that quality takes a lot of effort and care, and especially as you do the dub that you get a voice actors to actually take that and then voice it to... Because you're not changing the lips, they're still speaking English on screen. So, you've got to match that up, and it's a beautiful, beautiful job. People can go to our website, in comeandsee.net, and click at the top under languages, and there's a video that shows a sample of 14 languages in a certain scene. The scene is actually the paralytic being lowered through the roof. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I've seen that video. 

Stan Jantz: 

Have you seen that? Yeah, it's really, really helpful. And to see what that sounds like in 14 languages, it's very inspiring. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting, so I take it then you've got to get a variety of voices to dub the language for each episode to reflect the different characters that you... So, this is not getting two or three people in a room and doing the dubbing. This is getting multiple people for each of those episodes. 

Stan Jantz: 

You're exactly right, and you want to match the voice tone. So, whether it's the actor playing Jesus or Mary or Simon or Matthew, you want to match that voice tone, number one, so you have to audition voice actors. And then to be able to coach them through that to make sure it's getting the person producing that, and it's I tell you one area that's been extremely effective then, and we think it's just the beginning and that's the Arab world. Now, can you imagine a show about Jesus in the Arab world? There's an organization in Beirut, they're Christians, and they do media. And so, we're doing three different Arabic dialects, so there's classic Arabic, Egyptian Arabic, and Syrian Arabic. And we've done episodes one through three and using voice actors there, and these aren't believers for sure, but they are good at what they do. And the quality was so good, a secular television station in Beirut asked this ministry, they're a production company, "Could we show The Chosen on our channel?" 

And I asked the person who's helping us with facilitating the translation and the dubbing, and I said, "How is that possible?" I said, "why would they want this show?" He says, "Well, number one, it's such a good quality. The quality is so strong that they see the difference between other things that have been done." But he says, "Number two, it's not proselytizing." The Chosen as a TV show is not trying to "win people to Jesus". It's portraying the character of Jesus as we know in the Bible, and to then get people curious and interested and go to scripture, and we're finding a tremendous connection between people watching The Chosen and then wanting to read Scripture. One of our ministry partners is YouVersion, and they're able to track the number of people that come to their website and then want to look at a certain scene in a language or to study more about what that language or what that passage in the scripture says for them. And so, those two things are really important and The Chosen presents... And isn't that true? Just present Christ. 

Don't try to manipulate or try to... He will come. He's so compelling in his character, in his words, and he is the son of God and he has come to seek and save those who were lost, but he was a person of compassion. And so, we see this character and people are drawn to him, as they were in the first century, and I think we're seeing that people are being drawn to Jesus. So it's not quite there yet, this particular relationship with this television station in Beirut, but they're getting close, and I think Ramadan came up in the middle of that and they're negotiating and they had to kind of slow things down, but it shows you the quality of the show and also the fact that it's a quality dub, translation, and also it's not trying to "win people to Jesus", it's presenting Christ and as we'll see, presenting Christ in him crucified, as Paul said. That's coming in season six, so we're not there yet. Season four takes us right up to the triumphal entry. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Stan Jantz: 

That's the end of season four, and right now, as I said, they're filming season five, which begins with the triumphal entry and goes all the way through Holy Week. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting, so when you do these, how's the distribution? Is the distribution intended to be online primarily or what's that going to look like? Will that be different in different places? 

Stan Jantz: 

Well, when we say we want to keep it free for all, it is available through the app, and it's The Chosen, and people can look it up in the app store, either Apple or Android, and just download that for free. And then the episodes then are in that app, The Chosen app. Season four is not there yet, it's coming in the next probably month that'll be on there. So, people can always watch it. Plus, there are behind the scenes features. We have a theological roundtable that includes a professor I think you know, Dr. Doug Huffman from Talbot, he's one of the advisors, Rabbi Barry Sobel, who is on TBN quite a bit, he's a Messianic Jewish scholar, and then a Catholic scholar. And so, they review the scripts before they're produced. We have a team also of theological reviewers. Dr. Jesse Stone is our chief reviewer. He just last summer got his PhD completed at St. Andrews, and you'll be interested in this. He was the last student that N.T. Wright took on while he was at St. Andrews. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, wow. 

Stan Jantz: 

He's a New Testament scholar, and we have then three international scholars, Dr. Miguel Alvarez from Latin America, he's in Guatemala, Dr. Phinney Paul, I think his last name is, and he's in India. 

Darrell Bock: 

India. I know him, yes. 

Stan Jantz: 

Dr. Paul, and then I forget the name of... There's a Nigerian scholar, and they were all classically trained, and I think our Nigerian scholar actually teaches in the US, but Dr. Paul and Dr. Alvarez actually are leading Bible colleges in their respective countries, Guatemala for Dr. Alvarez, and Dr. Paul in India. So, they review it then for localization, contextualization, making sure, and so before it even goes into production, all that work is done just to make sure not only is it biblically faithful, but also that as it reaches other cultures, is it going to have that same impact, that same understanding that we would have here in the West? 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I take it you joined this effort after the first season was done? 

Stan Jantz: 

Actually, the first three had been done. 

Darrell Bock: 

The first three seasons had been done. 

Stan Jantz: 

So, we came in and of course now season three came out after we were there, but as far as providing funding for the things we talked about, the production, the translation, distribution, our first initiative was season four, but season three... And what happens is, like I said, season four is in release right now, so it's easy, because we're in 2024, but they've started work on season five, and that takes about nine months, seven to eight months. They'll finish that at the end of the year. Then that will release in 2025, and then season six will start filming in 2025 to the release in 2026. 

So, they're always about a year away from the release. So to answer your question, yes, it's on the phone. And for those who are technically adept, you can mirror it then to your TV if you like. From other countries of course, they don't necessarily have that option, but it's always available for free on the phone as an app, and we're hearing some amazing reports from people that have maybe a feature phone, so not even a smartphone, but a feature phone, and they can get the episodes downloaded even without the internet. I don't know how it's done, but there's some amazing technology workarounds in some of these places, and one of the great stories that we've had, and this happened last summer, is the president of Madagascar is a believer. Madagascar is an island country off the coast of Africa, and so he wanted The Chosen to be shown in his country. 

Now, there's not a lot of homes or TV sets or running electricity, but enough to where they could show it, and they showed it in public places, they showed it at an orphanage, they showed it in a prison, and the response was so overwhelming they decided to go back, and this kind of follows The Jesus Film when it was first out, put a big screen on a truck and take it into the villages. 

And then this case, it was the LED screen, not a projector like Jesus Film used many years ago, and so people could see it, but we did the translation in Malagasy, the dub. Malagasy is their heart language. It would not register among probably the top 100, but it's kind of return on mission, as opposed to return on investment. So, that was one that we felt was really important to do, and we're starting to get requests from places that have limited population, let's say, but they have such a heart and desire for The Chosen to be there. So, this president wanted shown, it was shown, and they've had tremendous response from that, and there are many pastors in Madagascar who are using The Chosen then as a tool really for discipleship and even before that for evangelism. So, these stories are starting to pop up. 

We're also seeing it, Dr. Bock, in the Catholic Church worldwide. As I said, I was in Brazil to be there for the premiere, and we were earlier in the year in Warsaw for a premiere, the Catholic Church is embracing The Chosen. It's remarkable, and I think I talked to one priest who came to one of the premieres and I said, "What is it about The Chosen that is appealing to the Catholic sensibility?" He said, "It's like lifting a veil that you're able to see Jesus for who he is and this human Jesus that you can relate to." And I just think it's a wonderful trend I think that we're seeing, and I really believe too, to go back to the Arabic translation, you know how we know it's been documented that Jesus comes to people in the Arab world in dreams. 

And I think there's something about the vividness, the imagery that they're seeing in their dream, but I think to have The Chosen come into the Arab world in this way through devices that already exist, it could be something remarkable. I'm not going to try to predict anything at all, but there seems to be an openness and part of is the beauty of the show, the beauty of our savior that appeals to people. It's not just about facts and figures. Yes, facts matter and they're important. He was a real person, he lived, he did miracles, he died, he was resurrected, but the beauty of his person and the variety of the people who follow him back in the first century, and these characters that are real characters but have been given more personality, let's say, than perhaps we read in scripture. 

One of the keys is plausibility. We know Peter had a wife in the scriptures, because he had a mother-in-law, but his wife was never named, so they give her a name, and a story and just people are drawn to that, because these are human people. These are who we would be if we were there living in the first century, the kind of people that Jesus called. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I have two directions I want to go, and I'm going to save The Chosen discussion and how it gets put together for a little bit down the road. Let me ask you one more logistics question about what you're doing, because 600 languages is just a few, and the logistics of putting that together, because you're starting from scratch, right? Someone says, "Let's do it in this language." I can't imagine anyone on your team who automatically knows someone who speaks that language, much less putting together a team that's able to put that together. So, tell us how that works. Someone says, "We'd like to see it in language whatever," and what happens? 

Stan Jantz: 

So, there is a company that we're working with, they're called Iyuno, and they are a global secular company, and they work with Disney and Amazon and all these different studios doing translation work for film, so they know how to do film, that's their specialty. And they have people then in these countries that are qualified both to do the dubbing, as well as the recording of that, so they have studios. Now, we're in that tier of that first 50 languages that you can generally find, because again, most major feature films, they don't always go to 50, maybe they go to 30 to 40 for a big worldwide release of a feature film. So, we're kind of pushing the envelope now between 50 and 100, let's say, there may have to be some new procedures put into place, and that's something that our team is working with. 

But we work with on the ground, existing production companies that assist us both in actually embedding the translation, because once the translation is done, you have to embed that then in a file, and they're layered. So, there's a lot of technology obviously involved, but the human touch is then when you have that ready to go, the person that does the acting, the voice actor then has to take that, and as they're the film... And I'll brag on Rick Dempsey for a minute. 

Rick, as I said, was with Disney for 35 years is a remarkable talent, and knows people. Because of his work at Disney, he's got these different organizations that do this, and I kind of joked with him. "35 years, I figure, okay, you've directed a lot of voice actors." I said, "Tell me that you've not directed Robin Williams," like in Aladdin or something. He says, "Yes, I did." Oh, man, talk about having to capture even in English, a voice that matched to an animated feature, so that kind of experience we have. And then we have other people on the team that are more focused on the localization part of it. Because there again, this is what's so critical. And as you know, Dr. Bock, there is such an enormous effort in scripture translation, Every Tribe, Every Nation, which is kind of this coalition of various Bible translators that are focusing on 6,000 languages for the scriptures. 

Darrell Bock: 

You guys are little boys on the block. 

Stan Jantz: 

I know. Well, here's what's interesting, and this speaks to this, and I'll just say this. We had a little saying that the quality of production speaks to the one. In other words, if I'm watching that, the quality is going to speak to me. And I experienced that when I saw it at Biola back in March of 2022. I was in a crowd of 2,500 people. We were sitting outside, it was being shown a big screen, and I'm kind of looking around again. I hadn't seen it and my expectation wasn't that high, but as I started watching it, it was like because the quality, I was just drawn in individually, and I kind of lost sense of the crowd around me. So, it spoke to me, and of course at the very end of that first episode, for those of you who've seen it, is when Mary Magdala comes out of the bar and the scripture says seven demons, and Nicodemus has tried and failed, and so Jesus just simply calls her by name. 

She's been called Lilith during this time, calls her by name Mary, and she's just startled, drops her cup, turns around, and he quotes the scripture that she was taught as a girl, "I have redeemed you. I have called you by name. You are mine." It's like she was cleansed and healed right at that moment. That just got me, and I was just, "Man, oh man, this is different. This is real." So anyway, so the appeal to one is the quality. Translation speaks to the heart, and you probably hear that phrase, especially with illuminations, the Every Tribe, Every Nation is the 6,000 heart languages. That's the language your mother taught you. That's your heart. It may not be the only language you know, for some people it is. It is for me, I don't know any of the languages. I study Greek and know a little Spanish, but my heart language is English, and I kind of stumble with anything else. 

So, you need 6,000 heart languages. Now, when you get to that long tail, some of those languages and you get over a few thousand, they're very obscure, but every language counts, because every person needs to hear it in their heart language, experience of scripture. With 600 languages, only a 10th of the total number, you actually hit 95% of the world who can understand it. Now, it may not be their heart or their native tongue or heart language, whatever you want to call it, but they can understand the language that it's been translated in. Interesting experience in Poland, we did the premiere I mentioned in Warsaw. Poland is unique in the world in that their translations are done by voiceover. They don't do dubs, they don't use subtitles, they like voiceover. So, the film was playing in a theater, the season four premiere and you could hear the English kind of underneath. 

It was audible enough where you could hear it, but over that was the voice, and it wasn't a voice actor, it was just a narrator giving you all the lines and what was going on. That's just how they do it. It came out of communism. For some reason, they still like it. Younger people like dubbing, and so we're doing both. We're doing the voiceover and the dubbing to Polish, but we just watched around us watching people responding. They pulled their tissues out the same time that we would watching in our language, and they laughed at the same stuff that they found to be humorous. So, when you can reach somebody with the language they were taught, the language you understand, you really are speaking to their heart. So, it's not just about reaching the one, but reaching the heart. That's why translation, whether it's scripture, or whether it's a book or in this case a film series is so very important, because you show respect, you show honor to that language, but more importantly, that understanding comes because of speaking to their heart. 

Darrell Bock: 

I know I asked you this and you told me earlier, how many languages have you done already? And I'm assuming that comes in kind of that core 50 or so that the production crew is used to working with? 

Stan Jantz: 

Correct, yeah. We just hit a milestone of 50 and again, on the commonandsee.net website, just click at the bar at the top languages, and it actually has a chart that shows which languages have been completed, which ones are in progress, and they're prioritized. What we've done, because people have asked, "Which ones do you do first?" Well, the top 10, 20 are pretty easy." You've got Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Portuguese, you name it, those top ones, and then you start getting past 20, 30, 40, then it's kind of a priority, but we have our third goal is distribute to the world, and we have ministry partners that we have come alongside or they've come alongside us. So for Alpha, for example, what are your languages you prioritize as you take the Alpha material out into the world? What about you Virgin? What are your priority languages or crew we're working with? 

We're working with OneHope. So, you collect all its data and merge it and find out which of the languages are of the priority, and it isn't always just population. It could be, where's God working right now in a way that is just dynamic and we want to be there with the language, so that it can support the work these ministries are doing? And we're finding that there... I'll give it another example, and this, so far it's just been in America, Prison Fellowship or the ministry that was founded by Charles Colson many years ago, and the current CEO of Prison Fellowship is Heather Rice-Minus, and they've been using it in 300 prisons in the US. Well, just as of about a week ago, we have connected with the international director for Prison Fellowship. There are 10,000 prisons that they want to show The Chosen in. 

We're seeing reports coming from incarcerated men and women. It's been such an amazing tool for them to be introduced to the gospel through the person of Jesus and his followers, and then they do materials. They have discipleship materials that they use in these prisons, and of course they have staff that are available. So, it's working really together with these ministries to be able to not just have this TV show to show, but then how do we then make it available in all these different resources and support material? Starting with, we have on the website, again, an area where churches can use clips from The Chosen to illustrate a sermon. I have a good friend who's a pastor, and he did a message just two weeks ago on essentially around the woman at the well, there's a wonderful scene of Jesus meeting the woman at the well. 

And so he used that clip, he could get it online through our website, and showed that, it's about seven minutes long, and he said it's remarkable how I just kind of made the scripture come alive, and he tied it into his sermon. He said it was really effective. He was very pleased with the impact that it had. So again, think of pastors all around the world with those clips and those resources in their language. So, that's not just translating the show, it's translating these derivative materials, these clips that we have that they can use. So, it can be used by pastors and by people in different communities in different countries to be able to use The Chosen for evangelism and then also discipleship. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, the interesting thing here is there's been kind of an infrastructure that's been built through the history of ministries that are global that you all are drawing on in order to branch out into the languages that aren't the more common ones and aren't readily accessible. 

Stan Jantz: 

Right, yeah. These are ministries that are very obviously mature, they've got staff around the world. And so in fact, when I mentioned Malagasy, the language of Madagascar, we depended on a ministry called Jesus.net, and they are a global ministry, they do work all over the world, but they were able to help facilitate. And again, there weren't any professional voice actors in Madagascar, so they actually used volunteers for that. 

And the president didn't like the... I'll just give... He didn't like the first one, the first pass they did on episode one. So, they redid it again and he said, "Okay, that's better." So, you do what you can, and again, we'd love it to all start with a very professional all the way, but that may not always be the case, but we still want to be accurate, we want to be respectful. So, they're getting a good translation, and then a good dub on top of that. Interesting enough, another little, as you learn this, Scandinavia does not want dubs, "Don't do a dub for us, just give us subtitles." Scandinavians pride themselves, "We know English, so just give it to us in English, but you can go ahead and dub it Norwegian or Swedish or Finnish or whatever." And again, that's unique, because Scandinavia doesn't care for it. In Brazil, a country of 220 million people, they love the Portuguese dubbing. They were very excited about it, were very pleased with the quality of how that was done. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, you deal with all that variety. So, that's what's going on around The Chosen. Here's one of the issues that I think I'd love to hear your response to this and deal with it. I tell people that when you try and visualize, I'll just say it that way, visualize the events of the Bible, many of which are very, very short. I can do the healing of the paralytic and read it and probably a minute and a minute and a half, and you're going to give 50 minutes to this. So, I guess my question is, how does that work? And that's one of the challenges that I think people face when they come across something like The Chosen. They sit there and go, "Well, I know that's in the Bible, but I'm not sure that is over there." So, how do you deal with that tension that's inherent in trying to give kind of flesh to the bone that's there in the Bible? 

Stan Jantz: 

Great question. Well, it starts with the Bible and there are actually three writers, Tyler Thompson, they're credited in The Chosen. Tyler Thompson, Ryan Swanson are the two primary writers, then Dallas joins them when they get the script to a certain point. So then to three of them, in fact, they just finished what they call a writer's retreat, and they get away and they were working on season six. 

So here again, got to get that sequence. This year, season four is released, they're starting to film season five, but they're writing the script already for season six. So, they're always staying one or two steps ahead. And we've asked that to them, and in fact, there was a panel we had for one of the premieres earlier this year, and both Ryan and Tyler were on that. And that question came up, just what you asked, how do you kind of give life and flesh out these characters without veering away from scripture? And both Tyler and Ryan said, "Scripture is our guide. We absolutely do not go away from that, but what we do is we fill in the characters, some of whom I just mentioned briefly." I'll give you an example, in season four, there's a character by the name of Joanna and her husband is Chuza. I didn't know, I thought 

Darrell Bock: 

Luke chapter eight. Yep, go ahead. 

Stan Jantz: 

So I found it, there they are. It turns out Joanna especially was a supporter, as were other women, of the ministry of Jesus. And so I read that and I go, "Wow." Now, she's just mentioned. 

Darrell Bock: 

Just a name, that's all you got in a role. 

Stan Jantz: 

But we know she supported the ministry of Jesus. So, they worked into where she became this fairly important character, especially in season four, because she believed that John the Baptist was who he said he was, because he was announcing the Savior, he was announcing Jesus, the forerunner. And so she becomes, and I won't give it away, but becomes really important character and her relationship with Chuza, there's a little tension is in there as well. 

Another one would be, as I mentioned earlier, Peter's wife or Simon before his declaration, then Jesus changed his name to the rock. So, Simon's wife, Eden, as a mother-in-law, we know that his mother-in-law got sick and that Jesus healed her. So they build this... So, it's not just a scene suddenly appointing, you kind of have this buildup to the relationship between Simon and Eden and that her mother is of great concern to her. And this is again, this would not be a spoiler alert, because it's in season three, the writers decided, and this has happened a few times, where they've done something that is immensely important to people as something they can relate to, and they realize these are human characters. 

Eden has a miscarriage, and it causes in Peter not to doubt that he was Jesus, the son of God come to the world, but that he's good. Why would he let this happen? And it's a question so many people have oftentimes. And so, the way they deal with that, and again, there's a beautiful, beautiful scene at the end of season three where the disciples had just been with Jesus feeding the 5,000, and we know in scripture that he kind of went off to pray. They got in the boat to go across the Sea of Galilee and a storm erupted. We know that, it's all in there. What they brought into this is Eden also at that time going into a cleansing bath called a mikveh. 

It was because she's had this miscarriage, and so she's going in there and then Peter gets out as Jesus comes, and it's a dramatic scene. Dallas didn't want to do it at first, because he didn't want it to be cheesy, but the Lord provided a tank with professional special effects, and it's remarkable. So, there he is on the horizon coming, and Peter says, "Lord," in this moment that he's struggling even, and he comes out and he starts to walk to Jesus in the middle, and then he goes down, and then as Eden is going down in her mikveh, and they're kind of playing these both in a creative way. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, they're playing the Peter walking on the water scene against the mikveh visit. That's interesting. 

Stan Jantz: 

Yeah, and he's down. And so, then he got underwater and she's going and she comes up and she goes, "Never let him go." This is her prayer, and the hand of Jesus goes down the water and he pulls Peter up, but he just embraces Jesus, "Never let me go." And it's his moment of realization of what's just happened. And it's just like, "Oh, man," and we've talked to more people who just said that was so powerful to bring us this sense of healing and wonder that existed. It doesn't change that Eden still had her miscarriage, but the fact that they could come together around the person of Christ and have hope for him. So, those are the kinds of things... Now, is it in the scripture? Obviously not, but it is one word, again, that they use, it's plausible that Eden could have a... Miscarriages were a characteristic, I'm sure, of that era as it is today. 

Or the other scene where, and this isn't probably the scene that's gotten the most attention over the last few seasons, of Little James asking Jesus, "You've asked us to go and heal, why haven't you healed me?" Now, the conversation that they have is not in scripture, but the theology behind it and the way Jesus explains to him why the Father has chosen not to heal him, the affirmation of people... Joni Eareckson Tada watched that scene, they did a private showing for her, and she said, "I have to look at it again because I was crying as I watched it." I need to see it again. It just how it spoke to her. Nick Vujicic who's the- 

Darrell Bock: 

Yes, I know who he is. He's here in Dallas. 

Stan Jantz: 

Oh, he is? Okay. He watched it, and you can go on YouTube actually and see Nick Vujicic and Dallas had an interview with him. He's Australian, right? He's got this accent. And Dallas asked him, "What did you think of that scene where Jesus and Little James are having this conversation?" "I was moved, moved," three times, "Moved." 

And he get so tired of people saying, "If you just have enough faith, God will heal you. And if you don't, then that's your fault." And he said, "That's not how it works." It was just beautiful, the way he responded to that. And then Jesus in that moment to Little James spoke to millions of people who have struggled with that, whether it's happened to them or not, but we've all prayed for healing for people, whether it's for a loved one, a friend, or prayed for healing for herself. And there's that question that's there, and what the writers did for that is completely theologically consistent with the person of Jesus and how God operates in the world. And yet, there's still some mystery to it. And James, the actor that plays him incidentally does have a disability, and I think they chose that actor for that very scene. 

He's a wonderful actor, Jordan. And so it's those kinds of things, I think, Dr. Bock, that bring the show to where it's touching people, but it's all scriptural. It's in terms of the way the plot is going and how they handle it, but to fill these characters in that are relatable, and that's one thing that Doug Huffman, who is one of the advisors, Dr. Doug Huffman, he said, "It's authentic and it's plausible and it's relatable." And as you look at it, even as a New Testament or a Bible scholar, is to see those things. And really, all of us when we do Bible studies and if you do Bible teaching, we're always looking for ways to, how do you relate this to people? And there'll be maybe an illustration of something that's happened or some kind of personal experience that all of us as communicators will give as we talk about scripture, talk about Jesus. 

And I think we're just seeing it this way in this very imaginative way, that it really brings a dimension to it, but again, as I said, one of the great beauties I see is that people want to go read the scripture. What did that story say and how did it go? The opening of season four, this isn't really spoiler, but the first episode, John the Baptist is beheaded, and the whole way they set that up is again, right from scripture, the dance of Salome, Herod, that whole thing, asking for his head on a platter. The way they do it though is they're the juxtaposition of John going to his execution and it's juxtaposed to Zechariah filled with the Holy Spirit, then given this prophecy about John the Baptist in the first part of Luke. So, you have these two things going together as he's going to his execution. And it just, again, pure scripture, that's a pretty long passage Zechariah 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, it is. 

Stan Jantz: 

And we don't know much about the execution, except that she asked for it, Salome, and he got it. 

Darrell Bock: 

It took place. So the schedule here, so you say four is coming out, five is under production, six, the writing's being discussed. So, I guess that means what? We're four years away from getting to the end? 

Stan Jantz: 

Well, three years, actually. 

Darrell Bock: 

Three years? 

Stan Jantz: 

The last season will be in 2027. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Stan Jantz: 

So, we've got three years to go, and so I can say four takes you right up to the triumphal entry, right up to it. And here's something else, I think I know the Bible pretty well, and I'm talking to someone who hadn't seen it yet. And I said, "Yeah, the last episode of season four, Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, and then he goes on his way to Jerusalem. He finds the foal of a donkey that had never been ridden." And the guy says, "Wait a minute, didn't the raising Lazarus happen during Holy Week?" And I didn't think that was the case, so I went to the scriptures and sure enough, in John 12, it was actually the Saturday before what we would call Palm Sunday is when he raised Lazarus from the dead. 

And in fact, I found out doing more research, and so I loved about it, because it prompted me to do this, the Eastern Orthodox Church calls that Saturday Lazarus Saturday, and they actually have a commemoration for it. And of course in John 12, it says six days before the Passover is when Jesus raised Lazarus, which would've been before Sunday. And that was just for me, it was like, "Oh man, I've read the Bible my whole life, know that story," but I wasn't sure. I thought, "Oh yeah, I didn't think I remeber that one." 

Darrell Bock: 

Hadn't put it in a calendar. 

Stan Jantz: 

So, it really helped, and again, that sets up as he goes to Jerusalem, just the remarkable events of Holy Week. And by the way, the show is getting darker. There's no question. And we know that the pressure on Jesus... Season three, the theme was, "Come to me all you who are labor and are heavy laden and I'll give you a rest." Jesus was asking in season three, and he was healing and wonderful things happening. 

Season four takes a little turn. He starts bearing, such as losing his friend, his cousin, John the Baptist, having Lazarus, his friend die, and realizing what the death... Jesus wept that scene. So, there's more of a burden you see on him, and we're just going to continue to see that through Holy Week, and the pressure and the way they portray the Pharisees and Sadducees, the opposition is just... In fact, if you haven't seen it, Dr. Bock, the character who plays Caiaphas, of course he's going to play a major role in the trials as they come before the crucifixion, and this opposition, which is in scripture... I don't know how many times it says they wanted to kill him. 

We kind of take that like, "Oh, they wanted to kill him." What you see it on screen, how they're plotting to do this, and how they're trying to figure out, "How do we get around our... Because we can't do it, so how do we make this happen?" And it just comes alive, even for people who have known scripture for a long time, and for those who are just getting introduced, it's a wonderful entrance, because scripture is where God speaks. This is where the Holy Spirit... The Bible is alive, and it's living and breathing, and I think this is a show, but to drive people to motivate, to show them, here's what the scripture is saying is the beauty of what this is doing. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, thank you, Stan. I appreciate you taking the time to walk us through both The Chosen and what's wrapped around at this Come and See vision to take the authentic Jesus and give a glimpse of Him to people in the variety of languages that will connect with them personally and hopefully become a means for which they can be drawn to consider who Jesus is. So, we just appreciate you giving us the time. 

Stan Jantz: 

Thank you, and I just want to say, too, a little, comeandsee.net, and you can look how you can become a part of Come and See. Over 100,000 people have joined us in this effort. They're bringing their loaves and fishes, which is one of the themes of season three, and that is your five fish and two loaves, or excuse me, five loaves and two fishes, and bring them and let Jesus multiply, and we're seeing that happen in ways that are just extraordinary. So, we appreciate everybody who's watching, who's giving, and we thank you for people in media who are paying attention and spreading the news, so thank you so much. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, we're grateful for what it represents, and I appreciate you being with us, and I want to thank you, our listener, for being with us. If you like our show, please leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, so that others can discover us. And we hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture and where we attempt to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. Welcome to The Table.