Fear, Film, and Faith

Kasey Olander: Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander, and I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And I appreciate you being with us today. Today, our topic is fascinating because it's about horror films, and we're going to obviously talk about them from a Christian perspective. 

And so, we actually have three guests in the studio with us today. So, starting on my left, we have Dr. Brian Chan, Assistant Professor of Media Arts and Worship. Brian, thanks for being back with us.  

Brian Chan: Thanks for having me. This will be such a great conversation.  

Kasey Olander: Should be fun. And then on my right, we have Rebecca Carrell, director of Apprenticeships and adjunct professor for the Media Arts and Worship Department. 

Rebecca, thanks for being here.  

Rebecca Carrell: Always glad to be here.  

Kasey Olander: And then to her right, we also have Dr. Aaron Switzer, Associate Director of Ministry formation. So, Aaron, thanks for being on the show today.  

Aaron Switzer: My pleasure. Thank you.  

Kasey Olander: I am interested in this conversation in, frankly, more of an academic sense. If you're joining us, you're a little bit skeptical, a little bit unsure about how scary movies can be seen from a Christian perspective, first, I admire that you're even listening to this at all, so thanks for that. And then second, honestly, I am right there with you. I'm not a horror film aficionado. I'm definitely about to learn a lot during our conversation today. So buckle up and hang in there with us, as we look at this interesting topic, like I said, from a Christian perspective, because we do discuss issues of God and culture, it's worth exploring why the world around us is interested in certain things, and, so many people are facing the challenge of how do I go from life to the Bible? How do I go from what I'm seeing in the world around me to what scripture have to say about it? So, the last couple of times I've been to the movies, I have seen probably 90% of the things that I've seen are horror trailers and posters and advertisements. 

So, my first question is going to be, why is that? I'll start with you, Brian, but are horror films really that popular? Why is this even worth talking about?  

Brian Chan: Well, practically, yes. It's fairly well known in the industry that the quickest and fastest-selling type of film is horror.  

Kasey Olander: Really?  

Brian Chan: Yeah. So, I was actually recently working with my co-writer. 

We were working on this script together, and I ended up becoming more of a, just a consultant for it, but that's what his executive producers asked for was he was saying, Hey, you know, there's a lot of things I've just kind of gone low in the production. But horror is still up there. And I think part of it's because of your teenagers, you know, your young adults, it's the thrill, the excitement, it sells quickly, sells easily. 

It's easy to write, and you can have horror types of films on various different levels of budget, you know?  

Kasey Olander: Oh, okay.  

Brian Chan: So, whether there's anything of a high budget or more of a low budget, people just sometimes like a good scare, you know, and it's just kind of that popcorn thrill of it. But it is one of the highest, fastest-selling genres. 

Kasey Olander: Okay. Interesting. You guys have anything to add to that, like what is appealing about horror films?  

Aaron Switzer: Yeah. One of the things I think about, when it comes to this, is, you know, horror is, I mean, part of it is, you know, what Brian was saying, there's just a thrill and then, you know, and it's kind of fun. 

It's fun to be taken to a different place in time where something's dangerous and something's scary, and you can watch and see what happens to the characters, but you're not in danger yourself. Sure. So you can just enjoy that. You can enjoy the mystery of it. It can be strange, you know? So there's a lot of things just that are enjoyable in that way. But I think something that might resonate more deeply with us is there are a lot of things in life that are just horrific. You know, we all experience horror in our personal lives, or we witness it, and what's going on with others. And so there's a great potential in a horror film to create a story that frames that so that we can have this s]hared experience, you know, the person who's creating it, they can express themselves. And then the person who's, you know, viewing it, a lot of times that's actually helping them to maybe process some of the things that they're feeling. And that might be something you're consciously aware of, or it might be more just felt. 

That's, so I think that's a part of the appeal.  

Kasey Olander: That's really fascinating. Yeah. I never thought about it as like a form of catharsis, you know, that people are kind of expressing and then also sharing in this experience.  

Rebecca Carrell: Yeah, so I, this is, I don't even know if I should admit this. One of my earliest memories is staying up late with my parents. 

I think I was three, and they were letting me watch Friday night with Elvira, Mistress of the Dark, and they would get donuts. And so really early on, and it was a fun treat for me to get to stay up late and watch scary movies, so that has always been a genre that I've been drawn to. But as I've given this a lot of thought, and especially as I've gone further in my theological studies, I think there's an authenticity to the horror genre that some of the other genres might be missing because we know deep within our DNA that things are not as they are supposed to be.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah.  

Rebecca Carrell: We know deep within our souls that monsters actually do exist. Even though post-enlightenment, we say they don't. And we know that in life, you don't always get the guy. You don't always get the happy ending. In fact, more often than not, you don't. 

And so I think that there is something about the horror genre that rings true on a level that most people probably don't pause to contemplate.  

Kasey Olander: That's fascinating. So that's another thing where, okay, as Christians, we value what's true, good, and beautiful. I guess we'll get into if there's beauty and horror films, but what you're touching on is the fact that there's something true, like that's what you guys are expressing is that it's a way for filmmakers to express themselves, but also viewers are drawn to it because there's a sense of realism, even though there's, you know, obviously some like fiction in them. 

Rebecca Carrell: Right, right.  

Kasey Olander: Fascinating. So what is it about horror films that, I guess, what do they say about our society? We've talked about kind of why people are drawn to them, like, because of what's in the films themselves, but what is people's interest in the horrific, say? 

So like, sort of what you just mentioned, the fact that people are yearning for this, like a dose of realism, reality, that kind of thing. Some emotional expression. 

Aaron Switzer: I think so. Yeah, I think you, you want stories to resonate. What, regardless of genre, what I hope for from an artist is that they're going to, you know, be honest, and whatever their worldview is, I want them to present that. 

So, if the, you know, in this case of a filmmaker, if they have a view of the world where they believe it's bleak and there's no redemption, that's the story I want them to tell. And then I want to be able to interact with that and do my own theological reflection.  

Brian Chan: Right.  

Aaron Switzer: And then I also want to have conversations in the community about that. 

So, but I think that's, yeah, people really long for stories that they resonate and then that they are beautiful. You know, there's a lot of different definitions of that, too. But for me, you know, beauty has a lot to do with whatever's fitting. So if I feel like something is, Kind of incongruent or not honest in that way, then it doesn't, it doesn't seem beautiful to me. 

So, yeah, I think people are looking for something that, or even that tells their story. That's another one too. It's like, I find myself in this film. It's given me language to help me understand what I'm going through. So I really do think that's a big draw.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. Giving language, being really helpful. 

And then also this sense of, okay, I'm not alone in feeling this way. Yes. or even like Aaron to what you said earlier, like having some sort of like experience of thrill. I don’t know if you meant like physiologically or emotionally, maybe both actually.  

Aaron Switzer: Sure. All the above.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. Yeah. But there's some sort of like embodied human experience that people are engaging in when they go watch a horror film. 

Brian Chan: Yeah, I think it's important to answer your question, what does it say about our society or reveal about us? You know, something that Rebecca said earlier is that there's something very unique about this genre, and the unique factor of this genre is horror defined by fear. So horror films elicit fear. 

So you know, a comedy makes you laugh, romantic movies, they, give you the willy warms in inside and adventure makes you feel excitement. Well, horror has to make you feel fear. And that's distinguished from thrillers to suspense. Thrillers and suspense create anxiety. Anxiety is different from horror. 

Which, the, which the, yeah. Yeah. It's a distinctive, so to define what we're talking about, it has to create fear. But within that, there's something very theological that Rebecca alludes to, and she used the word authenticity, and there's something very real about it. And I think that authenticity is both personal. 

And theological, and I think Rebecca referred to the theological part of it as well too, and the question really is then, well, what scares us? And that's what is revealing about society, what scares us personally. But there's also something very theologically grounded in what scares us. You think the very first, I mean, so within horror there are sub genres, right? Right. So sub genres of, you have your sci-fi horror, fantasy, horror, post-apocalyptic horror creature feature horror, which is why I brought Godzilla on the table here, where those of you can't see. I have Godzilla from Tokyo and Godzilla. Many of the Japanese-made ones are in the category of horror. 

Not the American-made ones, but the Japanese-made ones on the category of horror because it's exploring what we are afraid of. Afraid of annihilation, destruction. And you think of the first creature feature is in Genesis 3, the first monster appears with a serpent. Yeah. And with every horror film, you're thinking, okay, don't open that door. Don't open that door. No, don't listen to him. Don't listen to that, that, that monster's there. The monster's lying to you. And it's like that in Genesis three. Don't listen to him. Don't listen to him. You know, he's, it's a serpent. He's lying to you. And the outcome is something destructive. What you fear is annihilation, something destructive. 

Chaos. It is a lack of flourishing of life, you know? And that's the outcome of Genesis three is something very destructive, and that's why you're on the edge of your seat. Like that's a monster. Don't listen to it. You know? Yeah. So there's something very base. Yeah. In that, both personal and theological. 

Rebecca Carrell: Yeah. So I'm in no way a horror movie evangelist at all. If someone has a conflict with a horror movie, then I think you need to listen to that. And I think that is your conscience telling you that's off limits for you. But I am a little bit of an apologist for the genre, and maybe it's just to defend my affinity for it. 

But I would even, to add to what you said, Brian, I would say that. What we fear exposes our idols, and there is a useful feature in a horror movie that exposes the things that we hold tight to the most. I mean, The Bible is so full of horror stories.  

I mean, if you think about it, you've got the Flood, you've got Nephilim. 

Okay, let's talk about that. We've got these creatures, we don't know what they are, but they're getting women pregnant, and that's weird. And then they turn into giants, and that's strange. And you've got all of these stories, Sodom and Gomorrah. I mean, think about how. Legitimately terrifying. That would be, yeah. 

So, horror is all around us, and I think what Hollywood has done is it's just shone a light on it. Now, there is another question that should be explored, should that be entertainment to us? And I think that is probably where most people feel attention is, how much pleasure should we take from this? 

And then that's where I would say primarily the discussion probably should lie. Is the genre right? Is the genre wrong? I think it, it's useful, and I think that, no, that I don't think a binge of it is healthy, but I think an awareness of it and a theological assessment of it is good because the culture is so enamored with it. 

Kasey Olander: Yeah. That is really helpful to think about all of those different stories. When you mention horror in the Bible, I was thinking of okay, bringing Samuel back when he's, you know, in this sort of ghostly form. Yeah. But that's a ghost story.  

Rebecca Carrell: Yeah.  

Kasey Olander: So that's fascinating to think that we're like, okay, we're okay with it in this context because it's God's Word. 

Rebecca Carrell: Sure.  

Kasey Olander: But maybe it fits into this genre in a way that. Okay. I hadn't thought about that before.  

Rebecca Carrell: Well, if you think about what the Flood really must have been like, you've got carcasses floating all over the place. I mean, you've got this, didn't happen in an instant. This happened over a period of days, and it would've taken, I mean, what did it take? 40 days for the flood to cover the earth? 

So we're talking about Noah and his family listening to screams for weeks. I mean, that's just utterly terrifying.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah.  

Rebecca Carrell: And so. Hollywood actually did not invent it. You know, it, evil has been present since darn near close to the beginning.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah.  

Rebecca Carrell: Yeah.  

Kasey Olander: And then it's not quite the like cute little kid story that sometimes People kinda edit it down to be,  

Rebecca Carrell: Not when we not, when we pause and think about what did this sound like? What did this look like? What did this smell like? That would've been absolutely, utterly big T Traumatic.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah.  

Brian Chan: The last story of Judges. Yeah, that's a horror story. I mean, does that not leave you, you know, feeling very sick in the stomach, the content, and you just don't have to deal with it. Right. 

You know, and the worst kind of horrors are the horrors where it ends with not a resolution, no hope. And that's the last story of the book of Judges. Right. The way it ends, you're like this, it can't end this way. Right. But I think it addresses, though the flip side to your question, Kasey, which is not only what does horror reveal about us, but what, what does horror show us? 

You know? And it shows us a brokenness. It shows us a certain reality, a reality of the fall, and the reality of spirituality that we, things we don't want to admit to. You know what I mean? We just want to deny, we just want to go about our lives, but these things are real and that, that fear that is generated makes you acknowledge, an awareness to have an awareness that these things are real. 

Kasey Olander: Yeah. Well, let's go there then, because a lot of people, like, sometimes the question is. Well, okay, maybe I'll watch this scary movie, but I'm not going to watch that one about demons because that really freaks me out. Right. As a Christian, I do believe in demons. Right? You know, like it's clear in Scripture that our battle's not against flesh and blood. 

There's a spiritual reality to the world that we live in that a lot of times, praise the Lord, we can't see. So, like, what is it? like how do we think about those kinds of movies? Is that like, whoa, well that's over the line, and that's too far. Does it open a door to the demonic? How would you respond to that? 

Rebecca Carrell: That's what I've heard more than anything else is if you watch those movies, you are somehow opening a door for demonic activity to enter into your life. I do not believe that's true. I have heard others with more theological training than myself affirm that they do not believe that is true, and so, I, think that there is a, there's some discernment involved, and if you have alarm bells going off in your spirit, I think that's probably the Lord telling you that's off limits for you. 

I have not had that experience, and I tend to gravitate toward the supernatural horror movies like The Exorcist, and The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Those are the ones that fascinate me. I'm not interested in Friday the 13^th, not interested in Saw. I'm not interested in what some people call like body horror. It's the supernatural element that captivates me the most because I think that is the closest to reality. 

And I, and we do know of stories that mirror those accounts pretty closely. And so, those are the ones for me. I like to see what Hollywood thinks of when they think of the demonic. Yeah. And then I like to think to myself, and I like to pray and read scripture and think, okay, what does this look like? 

And if this is true, and I think it is, what does the general Christian population need to know about this spiritual war that is going on around us? And things that actually do open the door to that, which I would say are occultic practices, walking in unforgiveness, walking in bitterness, direct rebellion to the Lord. That's far worse habitual lying, habitual drinking, watching pornography, that's far more likely to open a door to the demonic than watching The Exorcist on a Friday night.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. That is really interesting too, you know, that we have to weigh all of these different things. Instead of the ones that are like  

Rebecca Carrell: Right. 

Kasey Olander: Yeah. Stereotypically like thought of in that way. But Aaron, do you have anything you would add to that?  

Aaron Switzer: Yeah, no, that's great. I'm glad that you twice have brought up that part of the discernment of deciding what to watch is just being honest about what might be too much for you, you know, because some things can just be overwhelming. 

Brian Chan: Sure.  

Aaron Switzer: You know, there's no use if it's going to be traumatic, for example. And a film can be, it depends on, you know, the person who's watching it. Well then, that's really of no value, so you don't want that. so I'm glad that you've brought that up twice. I just wanted to say Yeah, I, really agree with that. 

I think that's an important part of the, just the reflection. And I agree too. It's like, you know, what is the character of the film, I think has more to do with whether or not you could say it's demonic than. The content itself. So if it's about demons, but it's showing you something that's true, or it's an honest exploration, that would be different than something that's used intentionally to be manipulative or lying. 

Right. Because that would actually be more in the character of the demonic itself. That's  

Aaron Switzer: But in terms of like protecting yourself, everything you said, you know, the practices that you identified, I think that's more where the danger would lie. The only thing I would add to it is in the viewing experience itself, I don't think we should go into anything passively. 

Kasey Olander: Yeah.  

Aaron Switzer: You know, so sometimes we just, we come to something and, you know, we're kind of zoning out, and we just want it to be entertainment, and it's just kind of watching over us, but we're not thinking critically about what we're watching. So what kind of meaning do you make of it? After the fact? 

And so, you know, I think there's the potential for. Some harm when it comes to that, or delighting in the wrong thing. Right. You know, you talked about what should we be taking pleasure in? Some films are not designed to be pleasurable, but they're still honest, and that could be a good viewing experience. 

So those are the things I would add. But I love how you said that.  

Rebecca Carrell: Can I add one thing to that? That is, so important because what we consume, you know, the food we consume, but also the entertainment we consume, has a deeply formative effect on us. And I have felt more malformation happen to me by watching a show, like Friends that completely normalizes sleeping around and, you know what I mean? 

Then I, then I, had watching the exorcism of Emily Rose, which actually, in my fear, drew me closer to the Lord.  

Because I believe that story happened, at least a version of it. I believe that story is possible. It makes me want to cling to the source of true power, you know? And it makes me want to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit and live a life worthy of the calling that the Lord has put on my life. 

Far more than something like, Game of Thrones, you know, which was, which I never watched, but was so popular. So, I would caution someone who is saying you can never watch those movies because it's opening a door to the demonic. There, I think the devil is a lot more subtle, you know, than just to use horror movies. 

Yeah. And uses all kinds of things that come out of Hollywood that are far more subtle, that make behavior that is not pleasing to the Lord. Very, normalized.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah, that's a fascinating juxtaposition, and that's really helpful that we have to use discernment and intentionality with things that we engage with. 

And I'm actually super glad you guys brought this up because we have several other episodes of the Table podcast that talk about film in particular. We have a whole series, actually, if you visit our website, but other episodes are like film and life's issues, engaging culture through film, a Christian view of faith in films. 

And so there are several of them in which we explore, like movies that we've seen at the Sundance Film Festival or, in general, what does it mean to, to look with art such as movies, through our Christian perspective? What do we glean from it? And then also what do we reject? because I think a lot of times, Christians are known a lot more for what they like reject and what they're not about, than for like what we love and what we do celebrate. 

And so I guess that brings me to, we talked about the like supernatural part. Do you guys think that there are ways for horror films to end up being a bridge into spiritual conversations, with people who like maybe, are not interested in like, going to church with you or reading the Bible with you, but are like really into horror films? 

Brian Chan: I like that you brought up the example of, exorcism of Emily Rose. It's always a tongue twister for me. I attended a discussion with Scott Derrickson, who created Exorcism of Emily Rose, and he would describe the research process he went through because it's based on an actual Exorcist account, so it wasn't just something he made up. 

so he researched it, wrote the script on it, and he does this bit about just the amount of prayer he put into it, as well as the authenticity of research, the diligence in that. And, he said, you know, one of his main goals was to make people aware of the spiritual reality. Where in Western culture, we really ignore it. 

Right. Both non-Christians and Christians. Yeah. Right. Christians go about our days. We don't think about angels and demons. About rounded about in our society. You think of the old nineties book, Frank Peretti's, you know, this present Darkness that made all of us so aware of the spiritual realm and reality. 

And you know, one of the takeaways I got from that discussion from him was if you can get people who are. Basically, naturalistic or materialistic in their view, to have a sensitivity towards the spiritual realm. In reality, you've moved the ball down the field a little bit. Yeah. You know, now you're starting to become more aware of, okay, there's more to this world and the physical things that are about me, or around me. 

And an awareness to maybe listening to God and how God is working. You know, because now you're aware of that spiritual realm and reality. and at the same time that the conversation of. Discernment is will become also important because, you know, I, you know, for Western culture that is largely not as aware of spirituality, I remember when I was a teenager watching the exorcism, my dad came out and told me to turn it off and not watch it. 

And it's because from an Asian Christian, perspective, spirituality is much more of an awareness. We're much more sensitive to it. And he said this to me, you know, he was not a Christian, but even from a non-Christian perspective of, having that, you know, that, that discernment of, well, what's, what is your background? 

Where do you, what is it that's more sensitive to you? And so the, I think the bridges can kind of go in multiple levels in that way.  

Aaron Switzer: Yeah. Yeah. I was, I, was just, You know, right before I came in here, just looking on Facebook, looking at my newsfeed, one of the things that popped up, this, British, online magazine, The Quietus, I saw one of its articles from the last, you know, few days as of today, was, about Mulholland Drive, David Lynch film that came out Oh, yeah. 

What, 25 years ago? Yeah. Yeah. So they're still talking about that. And it's like by nature, kind of a confusing narrative, but the headline, I didn't get a chance to read it. I was just like, wow. There, there's another great example. The headline was, is this narrative about the possibility of redemption. 

Right? And so you see that a lot if you follow, just conversations you might have with people who are, you know, just interested in the arts and the kind of questions that they bring to it. But also, yeah, just magazines that aren't from a Christian perspective, you know, but they're still kind of wrestling with these questions. 

Or I, you know, I watched Sinners, like in the last couple of weeks, I finally got around to seeing that, and I was thinking about the themes in that film. And a major one is belonging. You know, I won't go into detail, I don't want any spoilers, but there's like all these interesting. Sort of, factions in this community, and they all have a different agenda in these competing narratives, and you're kind of tracking with this one main character who's getting pulled in all these different directions. 

and that's like just this huge question, you know, what does it mean to belong? identity and gifting is also built into that story very strongly, along with some other things that we talk about all the time, socially. So anyone who has watched that film, would have all those things would just jump out to 'em. 

And then there's plenty of opportunities, you know, to go from there and to say, well, this is how this film framed it. and it raised a question. So I don't know. Yeah. What do you think about identity or a sense of belonging or you know, your allegiance to a group or something like that. So yeah, a lot of potential there. 

Brian Chan: I just want to, reply to that, and I think that's a Great Sinners is a great example of where there may be a film that is okay for one and not for, not, like for me, I was not okay with that film, both morally and also from a writing standpoint, I wouldn't recommend it. And the review is reflect, I think this difference as well too. 

You know what Aaron shares and how I feel about it. The reviews are on both sides of the spectrum when it comes on this too. So that, going back to that, what is okay for you and what is. You know, your discernment of it is, important, the problem is sometimes you walk into a film like Sinners. I think walking into it, you didn't know where exactly it was going to go, and then you're 50 minutes into it and you're like, oh, you know, hypothetically,  

Kasey Olander: If someone hasn't seen it, could you just give like, the premise of this movie? 

Brian Chan: Well, the basic byline is, It deals with the topic of racism, and it's couched in, blues music, but involves vampires.  

Kasey Olander: Okay.  

Rebecca Carrell: Oh, okay. Interesting. I didn't even know that. And I feel like I'm on the cutting edge of  

Brian Chan: the genre. It is, definitely a rated R horror film.  

Rebecca Carrell: Okay. Okay. 

Brian Chan: and that, to add to this, you know, just to clarify, for horror films, there were a long list of really good PG-13. Horror films, so they're not all the Blood Gore, you know, kind of films, there are good long lists like A Quiet Place. Fabulous. It is a very popular horror film that's PG-13.  

Rebecca Carrell: Thought it was great. 

Brian Chan: So it is to be, to create fear, it doesn't require certain types of graphic content. Does that make sense?  

Rebecca Carrell: I think the better ones actually don't, you know. 

Brian Chan: It's really the writing. 

Rebecca Carrell: Right. I mean, the better ones, let a story build. They introduce you to the characters so that by the time things start to get funny, and I use the original Poltergeist as an example, nothing scary happens in that movie until you're 20-30 minutes in, but by the time things start to get weird, you're so invested in this family, and you're so invested in the story that it just grips you all the way to the end, there's nothing gratuitous, isn't  

Brian Chan: I think the original 1980s Poltergeist is actually PG.  

Rebecca Carrell: It is pg. Oh yeah, it is. It is PG.  

Brian Chan: So there's, there are a lot of, I think, clarification. You know, that's important when it comes to looking at the horror genre.  

Kasey Olander: I also want to highlight, I love the respectful disagreement. You know, nobody's like, whoa, if you're a Christian, you really cannot hold that view. 

You know, like that. There are these different ideas of like, oh, okay, that I land in a different place. And we're like, all fine with that. You know, we're all following the conviction of the Spirit. I think it's been very clear throughout the episode that everybody's like, Hey, you have to be obedient to what the Lord calls you to. 

And that's with horror movies, but that's with everything else too, in terms of what you're going to eat and drink and whatever you do, you're doing all of it to the glory of God. So that's, yeah, that's a great point.  

Brian Chan: Did you say gory of God? 

Kasey Olander: That would be a different paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 10:31.  

That's funny. So what that actually makes me think of, are there—I know that we just talked about how we're not blanket wholesale. You know, Christian should always watch this and should never watch that, for example. But are there, for you guys in particular, different lines that you draw about? 

Like, okay. I don't watch films that are super gory. Like you talked about your affinity for the, oh, the ones that do highlight the supernatural. How do you guys choose for yourselves? What films you—horror films—you do and don't engage with?  

Aaron Switzer: I don't like anything gratuitous in, in any kind of genre, so that always goes back to what's fitting right. 

So, so that, that's part of it for me. I don't, you know, body horror is an interesting question because there are examples of it that I do think are fitting. It's always difficult to watch, you know, just as an example, a director like David Cronenberg, that's generally what he focuses on. 

Anything that he does is going to involve body horror, you know? So,  

Kasey Olander: that's like blood and- 

Aaron Switzer: well, it's like there's something, it's, there's an exploration of it's a monster within, kind of idea, but specifically, you know. Is there going to be, is something going to happen to me? Is going to, something going to happen to my body? 

and he takes that in a lot of different directions, but the fear of it, the fear that it evokes would be that's, you know, what the part of the brokenness of the world is. I'm broken. And then there's like a moral side to that and a psychological side to that. But there's also just a physical side to that. 

You know, just the, horror of getting old and getting sick and, you know, weird things happening. and so I will watch those. I think they're interesting. I like the points that he makes. they're, very graphic, so they'd be an example of that. But on the other hand. I'm not, I don't morally object to it, but I don't like zombie movies. 

And there's just something about it that creeps me out.  

Rebecca Carrell: What are some of the  

Aaron Switzer: It's a very subjective, why that freaks me out. 

Rebecca Carrell: So you didn't love The Walking Dead.  

Aaron Switzer: My therapist and I will have a conversation that I'll get back to. Yeah, there you go. I really don't know what it is, but it's something. 

It's, but the thing about it, I like the fact that I, that they're there, that those stories exist, and I've seen some, and I have noted my reaction to it. And I'm like, well, that's interesting. Why does that bother me so much? What? What's really going on there? And so I'll actually reflect on that and see, like what meaning can I make out of it? 

So, yeah.  

Kasey Olander: That's fascinating. And that brings me to, like, I ended up reading a book recently that had zombies in it that I did not anticipate, but it was, it evoked me this idea that like, okay, this is just like resurrection gone wrong. Like we all have this longing for resurrection. And things made right. 

And you know, like death being the enemy, because death is never our friend. And, but there's okay this like, oh, uncanniness to where if that's like half achieved or like not done. In the Lord's way, we have this kind of revulsion to it or something like that. So that's fascinating that you bring that up. 

Aaron Switzer: It's, I, it's something about like, I don't like seeing a human treated that way. Yeah. That's another thing I wouldn't like, you know, like Saw Right. Or things like that. Or even other films that, I don't know if they're horror or not, but they're like a kind of a revenge fantasy. So there are certain things about, I don't know. 

I feel it, I feel like this, you know what I think about the man being made in the image of God and what that implies. And then seeing this, grotesque display of humanity is really, and I'm not, it's more than just a offensive, it's just like, just deeply unsettling. And, but that also doesn't, that just reflects kind of in some way who we actually are because we walk around living our lives. 

Not exactly to the glory of God. And so we're kind of half alive sometimes. So it might be showing me something myself I don't like. That's possible too.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. That's something that we've talked about in other episodes, how films are revealing, like, of our culture, like we talked about at the opening of this conversation, but also of like, sometimes we like see something in ourselves that we're like, oh, I didn't want to be convicted about that or didn't realize that tendency in myself. So that's really helpful.  

Aaron Switzer: But it's completely antipathetic. Antithetical to flourishing in a way that I can't ignore. You know, so that's definitely part of like, what a zombie film would be, for example. Yeah.  

Kasey Olander: And the, yeah, conviction from the Spirit is a gift. 

And so we're able to like see things in ourselves that we're like, wow, I need to like turn this over to the Lord and walk more closely with him. So Brian, how about you? How do you choose what films you do and don't engage with?  

Brian Chan: Well, first of all, another great contrast because I am into zombie films. Although I went just to prep for this episode, I went back and looked at all the zombie films have been made, and I've actually watched only a small percentage of them that I've noticed.   

Rebecca Carrell: You know, most of them are really bad,  

Brian Chan: most of them are bad. 

Rebecca Carrell: They’re terrible.  

Brian Chan: And, I think that's an, an example that point you're making, Rebecca is an example of where I draw the line, where films cross the line, you know, like in horror, I think it can cross lines to sadism where there seems to be almost a, like a glamorization of just something very sadistic. 

You know, how many ways can you, you know. Kill somebody. And there is no moral premise, throughout the film. And I think a good example of this is a currently very popular zombie. A franchise that started about, gosh, 16 years ago. It's the British-made film, 28 Days Later. You know, it started with that. 

And then they had the second. I love the first one and that the spirit there are spiritual. overtones and, biblical elements that are interwoven in it, and a lot of times in horror films, that's, that is the cathartic, ah, you know, it's in the midst of all this darkness you do. There's like a glimmer hanging on for something that represents the glory of God, you know, a trust and faith in God. 

That's what you see in the quiet place as well too, when you see the family praying together at the meal, you know, and not to give anything away again, but these are sewn in there. The Walking Dead has that. As well too, my old boss from Biola, he was one of the executive producers of Walking Dead. So you have Christian thought that are sewn into these films, and this, so in the midst of this darkness, you know, you have these glimmers of hope and light. 

But to go back to 28 Days Later, as an example, the first installment was great. The second one, I'm thinking like, what is this? It just felt like, like sadism.  

And then I went and I looked up, it felt like two different creators and sure enough. It was a different creator. Oh, and that makes a big difference because every filmmaker is showing you their view of the world. 

So the first creator show you their view of the world with redemption and hope. The second one was just it felt like sadism. Then the third one goes back to the first creator, and they disregard the second installment. This they disregard the second sequel, you know, and continues the storyline as if the second one didn't even happen. 

And I'm like, third one, great. And I'm looking forward to the fourth one. And so, you know, every film I think can cross the line. Like, romantic comedy for me can cross the line into raunchiness.  

And I don't like that. Right. You know, horror can cross the line into sadism. I remember watching this one film, seven minutes into it, I have to stop and turn it off. 

I'm like, that's too much. And sometimes I, I think developing an awareness of seeing where this is going. You know, you can tell maybe within the first several 10 minutes where this is going, what it's going to be like. It's the same with like certain action or romance films. Is this going to be overly sexualized. 

Lots of vulgarity. Is it over the top of this, you know? And then you have to make that choice and decision of, okay, I'm not going to keep going down this road because it's going to take you down a road, you know? And some films, like I mentioned earlier, it just catches you off guard. Like the book you read, you know, you don't know. 

And it's like, oh man. And that the hardest part is when you're halfway into it. Do you stop, you know, that's the hardest part, you know. But a lot of them you can tell within the first act, you know, in act one 

Kasey Olander: Sure.  

Brian Chan: where it's going.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. Yeah.  

Rebecca Carrell: You know, I don't know that I have a strict method of how I choose my movies. 

I will say that I love good storytelling and I love good writing. And as a writer, I pay a lot of attention to that. And so, when do I not watch a horror movie when it's bad? That's one. However, I want to be culturally aware, and this is something that I, I do think deeply about. So if there is, like when the 

What was it? The paranormal activity? The found footage, when that came out and everyone was just raving about it, I wanted to watch it so that I could be culturally aware and see what people, but what my peers were being drawn to. Now, I do not like found footage. I feel like it's lazy filmmaking. 

I just don't love it. So I got about one and a half movies into that franchise, and I thought, okay, this is silly. I'm not going to do it. I tend to, like I said earlier, gravitate toward things that are based on true stories, have a supernatural element to them, and resolve themselves with a redemptive thread. 

Kasey Olander: Oh yeah.  

Rebecca Carrell: Because I think that is the true story. We cannot save ourselves. We need someone. Outside of us to step in and save us and to do what we cannot. And we need to know that there's hope for a better future. And that's the story of the Bible. So I think I tend to be drawn to that one story over and over again. 

In all of its forms, thriller. Action adventure, the Marvel series and the horror genre.  

Brian Chan: Yeah. Can I add one more to that? Then, when it comes to fear, I think really well-written horror films as Rebecca's referring to, really hones in on what are we really afraid of. So like you used the, Rebecca used the example, found footage. Cloverfield is like that.  

Rebecca Carrell: Yeah,  

Brian Chan: that pretty, that was pretty good, right? Yeah. And, because it was good writing and the good writing part of it was this very psychological part of what we really fear at the center, what drives the whole story is regret is remorse, right. That's the entire plot of why the guy's trying to go in the opposite direction to go. I mean, that's the whole story of saving his girlfriend. There's this deep regret that drives the entire story. You know, you see the monster very little. Actually, right, right. And you see the people, it's the humans, and it's the, what the humans are fearing, you know? 

But you see the monster very little actually, throughout the whole film. And so that's a 2010 film. You know, it's fairly older. Hopefully I didn't say too much, but I think that's a good example. Yeah. Of, well, a lot of, you know, most of these horror films, walking Dead. It's the, fear is something very Human.  

You know what I mean? It's not something really external to us. It's something like regret. It's, a fear of loss. It's a fear of death. You know, fear of what's in the afterlife. Is there nothing in the afterlife, you know, or is there, you know, something very torturous and scary in the afterlife? 

And have I lived up to my greatest potential to, you know, or will I die? You know, with all kinds of regret. You know, did I find love or will I die? Not finding love. It's these fears that we all have. That's been now. Put into a setting that is very scary and it's made very visual and visceral to us to experience. 

Kasey Olander: Yeah, and that's an interesting point because that's sort of highlighting these universal human longings, but just like the opposite end. You know, like you're talking about, the fear is that I won't have my longing, desire, satisfied of being loved or understood or accepted or something like that. 

Brian Chan: Right. Or as Aaron referred to earlier, the fear of not finding belonging  

You know,  

Aaron Switzer: or  

Brian Chan: community.  

Aaron Switzer: Yeah. With Cloverfield too. Like there's the regret piece, and then I like the context of it. I think, you know, I assume that's a, post 9/11 kind of regrouping in a way. It's like this fear of how safe am I. 

How safe am I in my community? How safe am I in my country? Is there something, because I live in the middle of the city, you know, there's like all these kinds of natural, like I might be afraid of crime or something like that, but is there something, you know, big that's going to come in and attack that's going to overwhelm us and that we as a nation aren't going to be able to fight against?And, so I think there's a touch of that in Clover Field as well. So that's, yeah, that, that's another one that we, a fear that we live with, I think.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. So we've highlighted so much in this discussion. I want to give each of you a chance to, we can just start here and go around, to give some, like any closing thoughts that you would encourage, Christian, with, regarding horror films. 

Brian Chan: Oh, wow. Well, I think that really good horror films are meant to generate one real positive response, which is repentance. You know, it, is, it scares you to do the opposite or to correct yourself, and I think that's what genuinely scares us, is something that Umberto Eco calls the moral monster in his book History of Beauty in this Theological Aesthetics. It's called The Moral Monster, and the thing that we're scared of. something very human in us and something that is characterized with character vices. You know, there, there's malice, there's maliciousness, there's hatred, there's anger. 

Those are the, that's the moral monster. You know, they're deceitful, they're lies. It's the serpent in the garden. You know, and so being aware that, hey, these are the, all the things that are opposite of the fruits of the spirit. Those are the things that comprise a moral monster that we're truly scared of. 

And then the fear within us is the things that, well, it's part of my brokenness, the brokenness of fear, of regret and, and loss and not belonging. And, that repentance is a caution against the, what makes the moral monster and a caution against the things that I fear within myself, that how do I then live and embrace Christlikeness, that. 

One, I don't become the moral monster. Two, it resolves my own fears of these other things in my own brokenness that I may, that I fear succumbing to.  

Yeah.  

Kasey Olander: Yeah. Thank you.  

Rebecca Carrell: That's really good. I think I would speak to the one who is adamantly opposed to the horror genre and thinks that nobody should ever watch it, ever. 

And I would say that is probably the case for you. That is probably a guardrail the Lord has put up for you and that is not something you should engage with. But before you throw the baby out with the bath water, I, would say that I think one value that the horror genre adds to the cultural conversation is that we live in an age of materialism. 

We live in an age, and I think, Brian, you said it earlier, even Christians, we, say we believe that the spiritual world is real, act very much like it's not. So I think that the horror genre reminds us that there's more to see than what we see. And I think it reminds us that we have an enemy and that our enemy does not play fair and that his whole M.O is lies and deceit and, just playing dirty. 

And I would also say, probably quite surprisingly, I have had some of my deepest, most powerful moments of intimacy with the Lord. After I watched something like, a, Walking Dead episode that caused half the audience to leave it, it brought out a rage in me that I, and a need for vengeance in me that I didn't know was in there. 

And I had to put that before the Lord. And it wasn't a real-life situation that took it out, that brought that out of me. It was a manufactured one, and I'm so grateful for that, that the Lord could use something like that to show me there is a, there is something in me that needs to be laying at the foot of the cross. 

And so I think that they have a very redemptive, I think there is redemption in them. And then I would also just caution you to look around at everything else you're consuming. You know, if you are saying, never ever, watch a horror movie, but you're reading 50 Shades of Grey, you know, we're standing in some hypocrisy there. 

If you have no problem watching Landman or Yellowstone, and I, that's, you know, between you and the Lord, but you're condemning all the horror movies. Just remember, it's not just the horror genre that malforms us. It's, we really need to pay attention to everything that we're watching and listening to.  

Aaron Switzer: Yeah. I think watching with intentionality. Kind of piggybacking. Absolutely. What you said was that's what I was thinking to share and to reiterate. yeah. So both for yourself in terms of how you make meaning and how you live. But then also seeking opportunities to talk about that with other people. 

And then seeing, also too, you know, it's important to understand the intention of the filmmaker and things like that. That should always be, you know, we should always know that and have an honest, you know, read of what we're engaging with. But there's also this element of what good might God make of something that's beyond. 

What was originally intended. Right. So that's a reality of redemption, too. And so I think that can also, I mean, some of the worshipful experiences that I have, engaged in all kinds of secular media, horror films included, there, you know, God is at work, and it's part of my theological reflection, sort of my discipline of how I engage. 

I try to continue to listen to see what God would say. That's for my formation, but also for what I might have to share with others too.  

Kasey Olander: That is so helpful. You guys have done such a good job of nuancing this topic. There's been no just blanket statements of, you know, always this or never this. It’s been really clear to me throughout this conversation that we're encouraging people to be attentive to the Spirit and follow where their conviction takes them, and desiring to be obedient to the Lord. We've talked about this has been so insightful to show me how truth, goodness, and beauty can actually be communicated through horror films. Truth in terms of the fact that there is a supernatural world and things like that. Goodness when it sets up, right and wrong, good and evil, then beauty as well, and thinking about the world that God has made and the emotions that people are either expressing or entering into, or desiring to engage with. 

And so, thank you guys so much for being on the show today.  

All: Thank you. Yeah, pleasure. This was fun.  

Kasey Olander: I also want to thank you for listening as well. If you like our show, go ahead and leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app. It's a great way to support the show and help other people to discover us, and we hope that you join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.