Engaging the Culture Through the Heart

Kasey Olander   

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm one of the hosts on the show, and I thank you for being with us today. Today, we're going to be discussing how to engage the culture through the heart. So we'll get a little bit further into what that means, and explain kind of the terminology. But for now, I'll introduce our guests. We're joined by two brothers and co-authors. The first is Dr. Daniel Blackaby, he's author and founder of the Collision, which is a multimedia ministry in Georgia. So, Daniel, thank you so much for being on the show today. Well, thank you so much. It's an honor to be here. Yeah, and his brother, Dr. Mike Blackaby, is a church planter and pastor of Canvas Church Oak Bay in Victoria, Canada. So Mike, thanks for being on the show. 

Mike Blackaby   

Yeah, looking forward to it, thank you. 

Kasey Olander   

Yeah. I'm grateful to have you guys here. They together co-wrote a book called Straight to the Heart, communicating the gospel in an emotionally driven culture, which is already intriguing by its title, and is interesting for me, because I think it gets at some different things, like aspects of our personhood, who we are as people, in addition to like, what is the culture around us now we're in right now 2020 something. And so what does it mean for our culture to be emotionally driven? And so I'll ask you guys, first to start off by maybe introduce yourselves briefly, but then just talk about how you started thinking in this area of culture, and how to communicate the gospel, and where culture is now. So Mike, why don't we start with you? 

Mike Blackaby   

Yeah, I'm a church planter in Victoria, Canada. We're on Vancouver Island, and we moved here in 2018, and it's, according to Stats Canada, it's the third least religious city in all of Canada. And so it's quite the, quite the job to plant a church here, but we're seeing God at work, and it's, it's really an amazing experience. And I think a lot of what got me into this topic was Daniel, and I both did doctoral studies in apologetics, and a lot of a lot of what we learned was as really great stuff, but often it's focused more, maybe from a rational, logical standpoint, and then just the more we observed about culture, the more we saw that people are wired for both of those things, but often what moves them through the world is their emotions. And oftentimes, cultures seem to have heightened emotions around certain things. And there's a lot of reasons for that, but I guess the convergence of those observations and then our interest in apologetics came together in a lot of this, and for the two of us, a lot of our shared interests actually combined. And so it was a real fun project to work on, but things that we had, I think, both been observing in our life and just in our ministries, and then just navigating through the culture ourselves. 

Kasey Olander   

That's awesome. That's a part of what The Hendricks Center wants to do, is we’re the Christian Leadership Center, and we want to shape compassionate, courageous leaders. And the first part of that is compassionate, because you're right. Like, there's a lot about the way we engage that is like talking to people who are emotional creatures, you know. Like, that's part of the way that God designed us. And so it's awesome. We love apologetics. We have a ton of episodes of The Table Podcast that are about apologetics. And so, yeah, there's also this, like you said, it's not like a one or the other we're choosing, but you know, like, kind of, how do these aspects of being human, like, relate to one another? So that's great, Daniel, how about you? What would you add to that? 

Daniel Blackaby   

Yeah, well, I'll say, introduce myself. Daniel Blackaby, as you mentioned, live down here in Atlanta, Georgia, worked for Blackaby Ministries. I know some listeners may be familiar with our grandfather, Henry Blackaby, the book Experiencing God. So I have the honor to sort of serve for the ministry that he started and continue, and a lot of you know that message that he had, which in many ways, is somewhat the genesis of this book, just helping realizing that God is not just a doctrine or knowledge, that there is a relational component to it that is very real and you can connect with but I think just to follow with what Mike said, I think we've the two of us. I don't know how many we've written several books together, but this is probably the one that most like, the most personal book for us. This is the one that I think we both say came the most out of our own experience. And like you said, we love apologetics. We still have, I still read apologetics that, you know, the heady stuff that we definitely were not trying to, you know, to replace that or look down on that. I think as we, as we finished our doctoral studies, and you know, Mike in a very pastoral face-to-face, you know, ministry context, and a lot of what I do is through the media, through the arts, through helping people with pop culture and sort of that field of people in the questions. And think we both just realized that a lot of the questions, a lot of the issues that we had spent a lot of time researching and studying for school, weren't necessarily the questions that were they were still valid questions, but weren't the ones that were being asked. Those weren't the ones that seemed to be the dominating forces that were people were really struggling or wrestling with that a lot of the objections that we were encountering in just everyday life was ones that was resonating from the heart. They're more emotionally driven questions of identity and purpose and beauty and story, and where do you fit in? And all these, all these kind of swirling around things that all, I think, as we, as we look more into it, originate from the heart. So in many ways, this is a, book that came right from, from our lives, from our context, and even I would add to like me and Mike, we wrote this book together. Personality wise, we're brothers. We get along great most of the time. But personality wise, we are very different. Like Mike would be more the typical kind of head person. I would be more what would be, you know, the feel or the emotional one, the heart person, and so even just the dynamic, the experience of writing the book and realizing that there's this, there's different parts of ourself that can tap into different truths and insights, and understands culture a little different, understands human nature a little different, that I think even in the process of writing the book about it, I think we personally came to a deeper level of understanding of kind of who God is and how he can relate to us. 

Mike Blackaby   

If not for my influence, there'd be a lot more poems in the book.  

Kasey Olander   

Yeah, you're taking it a certain direction. Yeah? Well, that's so cool. I love that, hearing that. I mean, it sounds like this is a project that is near and dear to each of y'all's hearts, but yeah, as I love that, it's from your personal ministry experience that you're like, on the ground talking to people. You're like, hey, I want people to know Jesus, and I want to know how to effectively connect with them and communicate the truths of the gospel. And, yeah, so what is it that makes you say that there's kind of been, like a, I don't know if you would say, a shift to this emphasis on heart things also, by the way, Daniel, you brought up a bunch of different things, and I don't want to touch on each of those, you know, you touched on, like, arts and different things. So I'm intrigued on that, and we'll get to it. But what is it that it like, overall, broadly speaking, makes you all say that there has been, like, more of an emphasis, like, what are some of the examples of you guys talked about? You know, those weren't the questions people were asking was like, not the, you know, philosophical logical apologetics ones, but what was it that made you say that there's been more of an emphasis on the heart stuff? So, Daniel, we'll start with you. 

Daniel Blackaby   

Yeah. Well, I think, I think one of the main ones is maybe an umbrella for a lot of the specific experiences and encounters, but just, I think the question of if whether God is true or not, isn't necessarily the driving question. As much as is God good? It's not whether the gospel is factually true. That's almost a secondary concern that they'll get to. But if they can't get past the question of, is it good? Do I want it to be true? Do I,  is this God that I read about? Will he satisfy these longings in my heart? Will, you know, is this a world that I want to live in? You know, if that sort of is the gateway, then they'll, you know, they may never get to the questions of wondering about whether it's actually, you know, objectively true or not. I think a lot of the, a lot of the you know, identity and purpose and community and justice, or a lot of the morality question, a lot of the questions, the individual questions, I think, center really on that kind of, that tension of just, is God good? Because a lot of, I think what people in the culture maybe have seen, the picture they've seen of God, the way he's been represented by Christians has, maybe hasn't given them that image. And so there's just a lot of baggage that I think as Christians we need to work through still get to the other questions, but there's just a lot of kind of junk and misconceptions and bad experiences that almost need to kind of wade through with them at a heart level before you get into the head stuff. 

Mike Blackaby   

And I would add, there seems to be within culture an elevation of the emotional, and we've always been wired as head and heart, and so that hasn't changed. We, our human wiring hasn't changed. But there seems to be like a leveling up of the importance of certain things. And of course, there's all sorts of interesting reasons that for that, and even just the platform of social media and these various things, where we can express our immediate emotional reaction to things happening in the world right away, not necessarily after thoughtful consideration, but just our gut reaction to things and so and then, typically, as we share that, we will have gut reactions to other things that people are sharing. And so there's this whole space where the emotion all just gets kind of launched out there, and it's all swirling around, and people are dealing with that and so much of it is like initial intuition or even just examples of how you see certain things resonate with people and culture, like the power of stories and those types of things, and just recently, saw the Project Hail Mary movie and the whole IMAX theater was packed full of people. And you're just like, wow, that never happens. Theaters are pretty dead nowadays, and, but, but you get a well told story that's not about the special effects and being out in space and, like, nobody's there for the science either nobody's there like, oh yeah, just give me this science. They're there for the for the emotional connection, and you see certain trends in culture that actually connect with people's emotions, and well told story and that sort of thing and people just get around that. And so this, even just this idea of as you look to even skeptics who give their reasons for why they don't believe. If you dig down enough, eventually you'll come to, well, I don't like what the Bible says about this. Or, you know, or I don't feel like my identity fits in with that, with that. Or, or I was hurt by a church community, and it broke my trust. And community matters so much to me that if that, if that trust is broken, then I cut all ties with and so you end up seeing that there's a mix of both head and heart, but, but usually what tips the scales is the emotion and then, even just from the way protests and things on college campuses. It's a little bit of old news now, but, but those types of things put just put on the radar that, especially with the younger generation, a lot of there's a lot of concern. Like, wow, are people just being driven by their emotions without really thinking through what they're doing and we tried to put a little bit more of a positive spin on that, like it can be used for bad. But actually, if this is how we're wired, then the church needs to take notice of this is how people navigate the world, and if we're not speaking to that side of people, then we're really not speaking to the side of them that propels them through the culture. And so we tried to take a bit more of a positive approach, even though there's lots of negative examples as well. 

Kasey Olander   

That's great, because that's actually something that I was going to ask next. Are there any good things about this emphasis on the heart? And what you guys have brought up is really fascinating, because you're talking about, you know, it's not that we're like a new type of human who now has emotions, you know, like, but the fact that, like, just so many things that are now standard in the world, like interacting with social media, like, has these repercussions that we haven't thought about, we're able to share things just so quickly without having the long form stuff just takes time, takes time to sit and write and reflect and edit and, you know, like, get and go through editing and publishing and stuff, as opposed to, you know, like, having the instant access to like, say, whatever opinion or emotion comes to mind, and then reading all of these people's, you know, like, kind of off the cuff gut reactions, a lot of the times, not that everyone uses social media that way, but a lot of times, those are the things it's like, the speed that like makes the emotions run higher, In addition to like, I love that you guys highlighted that what people are asking is, you know, like, just because it's emotionally driven, like, doesn't mean that it's invalid. It almost is, like, I don't know if it makes it more valid that I would say that way, but it just is part of like, someone's genuine reaction to the Christian faith is based on an interaction they had with a Christian who hurt them, or a like something suffering that has gone on in their life, that they're like, Hey, can I really believe in a God who would allow this to happen? And so people are wrestling with all kinds of different things, and it may be just a difference that, like, people are being more honest about it nowadays, that it's more socially acceptable to do things like go to counseling and talk about your feelings, and also to like, you know, share things more publicly that people didn't used to have the access via social media to share and stuff. So those are really fascinating trends that you guys have brought up. And so I appreciate that, in addition to the fact that you're saying it's not just all negative, like, well, we have all these problems nowadays and young people, what are you going to do, you know. 

Daniel Blackaby   

Which is often how it is, because that was one of our, that is often how it's spoken of is, you know, if it's more emotional now, and that's bad, and if only we could kind of beat these emotions out of these kids, you know, and get back to the good old days when it was more rational. And part of our, you know, even just, you know, the irony of some of that is, you know, we did a lot of apologetical work, which is, you know, breadth of amazing literature that was needed to respond to a very head driven culture and very objective scientific proofs and that just being driven by the head and the culture wasn't necessarily, you know, spiritual utopia for us, either there was, there was ways that could kind of demystify the faith and deconstruct a lot of the stuff of the faith that you know that really our conviction is that God, if you look through Scripture, the way he appeals to us is both through our head and through our heart. So whatever the culture, if it's driven by the head, if it's driven by the heart, there's God wants to and can, and has given us the template that he can relate to you in both of those. So it's not really a matter of just if we can only get back to our, you know, our preferred template of culture, and then we can have an influence. It's not like, what are the, what are the exciting opportunities that, you know, maybe people are more open to story than they were 20 years ago, because, you know, testimonies, and that's this sort of subjective, and you know, we don't put value on that where nowadays, you know what, like, your story matters. There's value in that, like your, you know, your lived experience has, has more weight. And that actually gives opportunities for Christians in various ways. So, I know for both of us, our conviction is, this is, obviously there's bad, there's always abuses and bad and whatever cultural situation, but there's also a lot of opportunities, and if we have the eyes and the willingness to embrace those. 

Kasey Olander   

So let's go there. And Daniel, I'm glad that each of you have brought up story and how impactful that can be. So let's, yeah, talk about that. How have we, like, how have you guys seen the power of story? You alluded to the Project Hail Mary Mike and how, like, all of a sudden this theater was packed when you were like, I didn't know people went to movies, but yeah, what are other ways that you've seen, like, the power of story in addition to, like, testimony, like Daniel just brought up? 

Mike Blackaby   

Yeah, well, I think sometimes there, there may be a temptation to try and boil the gospel down to just like the ABCs of, how do you become a Christian? Or, like, just, just give me the just give me the formula, or, you know, the algorithm, or whatever it is. And there's a sense of the gospel is story, and story gives context to the various facts that are in there and so they it works together, but, but story is also the universal language and so a good movie or a good book or show or something that picks up traction and culture is usually something that appeals across all the various types of people and generations, and you've got thinkers and feelers and they're both, they're both engaged in something, because story draws you in. And we're just, there's all sorts of fascinating literature on this of just that, like we actually even frame the world around us in story. It's like we see ourselves as the protagonist navigating through our unfolding autobiography. And that's how we make sense of story. And politicians get this. It's like, whoever can frame the world in a story that makes sense to everybody. It doesn't even matter, necessarily, if, you've got all the facts and figures, it's whoever tells the best story usually has the influence. Now there's a lot of ways where that can be abused, but there's also a lot of ways that can become a great thing. And I think even and Daniel could speak more into this, but I think even Christian content creators nowadays are finally realizing that when I make a show or a movie, I don't have to just this. Doesn't just have to be the vehicle to get a message across. I can actually make this a good story. I can tell a good story, and I can focus on telling a good story, and that actually bypasses a lot of the objections people have, because it goes straight, it ignites the imagination. And if we are propelled through the world, through our passions and our heart and our imaginations, then if you can appeal to that side of somebody, then oftentimes, it kind of slips under the door, or it sneaks around some of these walls that people put up and you can see somebody engaged in a good story. And the gospel is a good story. It's arguably the central story that all other stories reflect in some way, and then, like Daniel mentioned, testimony and there's so many ways that you can, but it's more subtle. You know, it's not just saying, let me give you the evidential apologetics for the resurrection, which is great and which is good. And there's a lot of people who want that too. But there's this. There's also a sense of being more subtle and saying, Let me tell you a good story, a story that has the gospel woven through it and as you come like Pascal. Like, make them wish it were true, and then show them that it is true to the point where they're like, Wow. Like, If only that were the case, and see, well, actually there's a strong case to be made that the Gospel is true, and it does meet these needs and desires. And so story is one thing that Daniel and I are both we can nerd out on but Daniel deals a lot in that, so maybe you can kind of speak into that, just even in the world of like film and because Christian media, we remember when we were teenagers, it wasn't quite as high quality as it is now, but there's some great storytellers out there, and I think, I think we both think they're the ones who may carry some of the most influence in culture, is, are the storytellers? 

Daniel Blackaby   

Well, it's interesting too, because even, you know, through the work that we've done, you know, if you go back, I don't know, 15 years or so, a lot of the like the hand wringing within the church, or the sort of the boogeyman that they would sort of hold up as sort of representing, you know, this is sort of what we're up against was kind of the university professor. It's the, you know, the real smart, you know, first semester freshman, and he comes in and he's, you know, bashing down all their faith. And that was sort of the image of where the influence comes from. And nowadays, like I see it a lot, just with the ministry work that I do, that a lot of that same kind of trepidation is now aimed towards, you know, Netflix or Disney or the media companies, the ones that are telling the stories that, I think this implicitly we've come to understand that the real culture shapers are the ones that are telling the best stories. And there's a lot of stories out there, and we have more access to stories now than ever, thanks to streaming and phones and so we're just, we just bathe in stories all day long that's, you know, that's shaping us. And I think even one of the things you see, too, is just a lot of the objections, or the people with questions, or even hostility towards the church, in many ways, they're responding to the story that has been painted of the faith it's they'll talk, you know, the church is just not a place where, like, you know, blah, blah, blah, or this or that. And it's not, you know, this church situation, you know, here's the facts of where it's they're responding to a wider narrative that has been painted about, this is what church is like. This is what Christians are like. This is what God's like. And a lot of that comes, you know, they haven't, they haven't, you know, use the scientific method and tested every church, in their in their community. It's coming from the stories that have been told, the governing kind of meta narratives that are out there. And that's what's, you know, they may have their personal experiences as well, but then they feed that in with all these other narratives that are, that are out there. And so I think a big challenge for the church, not just that you can only do that through, you know, $300 million you know, Blockbuster Christian movie or something, but just how do we tell better stories, whether that's through media, through, through making great entertainment, great shows, or just making compelling social media clips. And, you know, like whatever it is, wherever it's sort of that field for story. How do we- not that we need to invent a compelling story for Christianity, we have a compelling story. We just haven't done a good job at communicating that it is a compelling and satisfying story. How do we tap back into that in a way that honestly reflects, you know, this is the story you're joining into. And that's good, because you want this to be true, because it does satisfy these questions you have. 

Kasey Olander   

Yeah, and even like, the fact that God reveals Himself in Scripture. Scripture has a grand narrative. It is this awesome story of, you know, creation, fall, redemption and restoration, and so the fact that that is just by structure, compelling for people, you know, like that, people can see themselves as part of a story is really, yeah, I think, captivating for people. And, like you said, presenting it as that way, instead of these, like, you know, propositional truths, if you believe A and then B, and it's a bit like painting the picture. That is, you can be caught up into this story, and you are, you know, like you're part of it gives some like purpose, in addition to the fact that it's, I mean, there's some like beauty in it as well. And so I also love that you guys have highlighted films and movies and stuff, because we have a number of episodes that if you're interested, you can watch. Like, there is typically a recap every year about the Sundance Film Festival and the different films there. And obviously those are not Christian films, but they're independent movies that are speaking to like, what is the culture interested in right now? And so there's a ton of directions that you can go with thinking about story, especially in film. One of the things that kept coming to mind for me as you guys were talking was like, Nathan and David. And when Nathan is calling David out on his sin, He doesn't say, Look, you messed up. He says, Let me tell you a story, and so David then has this visceral response for what that is so unjust. I can't believe that. And Nathan's like, Actually, that's you know, like he responds to the like, being gripped by the story that Nathan is telling instead of just, you know, A, B, C and D. So are there other places that in Scripture come to mind for you guys when you're thinking about, like, the power of story? 

Mike Blackaby   

Well, Jesus was, of course, the master storyteller. So much of what he said was in the context of short parables, but then also, a large portion of Scripture itself is narrative. It's like so when God is revealing Himself to us through His word, like so much of it is through story, and aren't we? Aren't we thankful that it's not the majority of it isn't law or, you know, it's through, it's through methods of the heart. There's the, I just finished a preaching series at our church going through the book of Psalms and how the Psalms teach us to worship. And it hits on every emotion you can think of is captured in the Psalms. And there's, there's books of poetry, and even the prophets get into poetic. It's like ancient heavy metal. They got some dark, dark imagery, they have feeling. And it's just visceral. And I think your example is dead on, like, Nathan knows, okay, I don't know if I want to go toe to toe with a king and just call him out like that's dangerous, but if I tell him a story, then he'll see it like he'll see the truth without me spelling it out for him. And that's what stories do, is you kind of either see it or you don't, but and so you can always follow up a story with explanation, but a well told story just turns the light bulb on and you're like, I see it. And even if I can't fully explain it, I see it. And I think that happens oftentimes, I think, I think Jesus always was using metaphors and similes, and he and he was using culturally relevant ones. He would look around and be all kind of talking to a bunch of farmers or, you know, you know, rural Galileans, and so he would use examples and pictures that they would get and I think it's just a great example to follow. I think Scripture is just full of that sort of imagery, of story and of compelling imagery. And it's, it's a great example for us. Say, if God related to us this way. Then one, it shows us that we can relate back to God in the same way, but it also helps us to know that this is an effective way to relate to people, because God Himself related to us in this way, and we can now relate to others in that way about him. 

Kasey Olander   

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I don't know that you're going to get better with then, yeah, narrative is so much of Scripture, and Jesus did it like so that's, yeah, those are great places to go. And then- 

Mike Blackaby   

The gospel itself to go, and, you know, take this good news. Well, the news, it's not like we think of news as just like headlines, but, but news and the way that they understood history and events and stuff in that culture was so narrative driven, like, every time that the Jewish people would remember back, what has God done? What is our history? It was tell the story. Keep telling the story. Tell the story of Passover. Like, tell these things so that it passes from generation to generation. So, the gospel, it's there's facts that you take, but this good news, it's like, let me tell you the story of what God has done. The resurrection makes sense in the context of- and I just wonder today if we, if we go to somebody and just say, Jesus died for your sins so that you can be forgiven, and they're just like, that means nothing to me. What does that even mean? It's like, well, let me tell you a story. Yeah, it takes a bit more time, and we're all about the elevator pitch, but I think taking time is good. I think it gives proper context. 

Kasey Olander   

Yeah, well, I want to move to Daniel. I'll have you start with this next question, because you guys have brought up film. And so I want to talk about different kinds of art. We have a couple episodes on that too, so you can see why I'm interested in this topic. Because I'm like, oh, there's so many different aspects of our personhood. But then, are there other ways that art can be used besides, you know, movies and stuff like that? Are there other ways that art is compelling to people? And yeah, any other places that we see that in Scripture, either one? So, Daniel? 

Daniel Blackaby   

yeah, well, I mean, I'm, this is my this is my jam. Like, I'm very I've been banging this drum for a while. I love artists. I love creative people. I love artists in the church. I think they have so much to offer. I think they also need a lot of guidance, and they need that partnership from the church. So it's not just, you know, let's just give to them and let them do their thing. There is that, this beautiful community of sort of the give and take with that community. But I think, in some ways, I think the arts and artists are one of the most underused or misused resources. We have as the church that we sort of reserve them for, you know, Easter or Christmas, when we need, like, to Super Size our service and make it go big, you know, with all these new people showing up for these, like, and then we pull them out of the closet, and now we have dancers, and we have film people, and we have every kind of art imaginable. And then then we kind of go back to just music for the rest of the year, but I think it's actually not the opportunity for the arts to, I mean, just look at the influence that you know some obviously it's a tier above mere mortals, but something like a Taylor Swift, like, there's so much of you know the arts, like it's maybe shifted from the days of, you know, poets and some of those things, but it's just become songwriters, and they are the ones that are influencing. There's so much to the arts that does. I mean, in many ways, the arts speak the language of the heart as well as anything that is the beauty of you know, going to a movie, as opposed to reading Wikipedia, you feel the movie. You feel it in a different way. Or music, you feel like, I think we might even mention it in our book, but I know had a conversation with someone that's not a Christian, that sort of out of the blend, pretty resistant to the church, but just admitted that every time they're in a church, this thing about like this, the gospel of music, just makes them extremely emotional, and they don't understand why, and it kind of scares them, and they don't want to deal with that. And it's someone that's not an emotional is very much a head driven person. And yet, there's just something about that music and those lyrics put with those melodies that kind of infiltrates into their heart and in ways that they can't necessarily articulate yet or process exactly why it's making them feel that way, but it just sort of aims their spiritual eyes kind of more heavenward. And I just think today, people, especially younger generations, are just primed to be aimed in that way. They want that spiritual experience. They want sort of that bigger kind of transcendence encounter. You know, that kind of language is, you know, they're not bashful about it these days, even if you don't believe in God, it's cool to be spiritual. You want to feel something, and there's got to be something out there. And in many ways, I think the arts can be used to sort of harness that existing desire and passion and just aim it in the right direction and kind of move them further along that path. 

Kasey Olander   

Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, I've even heard, like believers say, you know, when you're in a place of suffering that the hardest thing about a church service is the music, because sometimes, you know, like, if you for whatever reason, you're like, I'm just trying to get through like, you're not in a place where you want to, like, deeply emotionally engage, like the music or like any kind of art, sort of, I hate to say, forces you, but like yeah, hits at this different place in you as a person, like beyond your control. It almost is funny to try to talk about it in a conversation, because it's like beyond propositional truths. It's like beyond just the words, but like the yeah, music and dance and visuals that they have this compelling impact on believers and unbelievers alike, which is really fascinating. So are there places that we see this in Scripture? Mike, I'll go back to you real quick. Yeah, places that we see art valued in the Bible? 

Mike Blackaby   

Well, the first people ever mentioned in Scripture to be filled with the Holy Spirit, were these artisans that are that are building the can't remember if it's the temple or the tabernacle, but, but they're, they're constructing all of this. And a lot of it has practical purpose, but then a lot of it doesn't really seem to have much practical purpose, so much as it's beautiful. And there's this idea of when you enter into the presence of God. Are there certain things that elevate your heart to where they need to be in order to worship? Now we understand that we can worship anywhere, but the truth is that we often don't worship anywhere. We need some help. And so if you're sitting in a in a room full of beige walls and you're just sitting there, and it's like, okay, worship. You're like, well, technically, I can God is in this place, but, but the way we're wired, it's like, Well, are there things that help to sort of elevate my mindset and point me in the right direction of something beyond and beauty often does that. And so you see that there's gold all over the place, there's carvings, there's art in the in the temple and so you actually see when God himself is giving the instructions of, how is my house going to be built? He doesn't say, just throw up some drywall. And that ought to do it like just as long as it keeps the rain off. You just any building will do like it's elaborate, almost to the point where it's kind of embarrassing, where we're looking like, man, they're like, they're spending a lot of money on this temple. That's a lot of gold. If we ever did that to our churches today, people would be like, What are you doing? And yet, when God's giving the instruction. He says, no, there needs to be something about this place, because this is where people are going to come to experience my presence. And when they do, they their hearts need to be activated in an appropriate way that helps them to understand the beauty and the magnitude of what they're about to do. And I think even in like Gothic cathedrals and stained glass, when used well and properly, did that sort of thing, you would come in and the natural construction of these buildings would lift your eyes up and that's not a bad thing. Now, obviously that can be grossly abused, just like anything but you do see, even in God's own instruction, that he values beauty and because I think it has the purpose of putting our eyes to him as the source of that beauty. 

Kasey Olander   

Yeah, and I like that you've segued us into beauty, because I feel like that's so interconnected with art. Art is almost like, beautiful storytelling sort of wrapped up. And I think that there's so many different things where they're interconnected and overlapping with these different ways of engaging the heart. And so we'll just touch on beauty quickly, because we did talk about art. But Daniel, would you say that, especially because we also have another episode called Beholding Beauty, and so you know, that's more content to listen to if you're interested. But what are some ways that you would encourage us to experience beauty, like either to point ourselves our own eyes or point others toward God? 

Daniel Blackaby   

Yeah. I mean, obviously, like you said, the arts are, you know, the arts can speak the language of beauty that they don't always they're not always defined by beauty, but they could be, and they should be, especially those that are making it from a place of faith. I think even just our life, like our thinking of our life as a work of beauty, you know, I think in our book, we talk about being a pocket of beauty wherever you are, just bringing sort of that beauty of the gospel of the faith with you in a way that, in the same way that art can maybe reflect or be an example to someone or something different, point them higher, just the way that our conduct can do that, the way that our because I don't think you see that a lot of the objections or the just the dissatisfaction, maybe with the church these days, when it's expressed can be, I think, traced back to just a lack of beauty. It's well, the church is a place of truth. They'll tell you what you know, what to believe. It's a place of goodness. Maybe they'll tell you sort of how to live and what's right or wrong. But it's not that they won't do it in a way that reflects beauty. And you know, just those three, you know, the good, the true and the beautiful have always been kind of intertwined and essential to have all three to, you know, in many ways, beauty safeguards truth and goodness and keeps you know, without that, you become very judgmental, or it's very cold and it doesn't appeal that it should, beauty should radiate from those other elements. And so I think just our light, the way that we conduct ourselves, you know, obviously people aren't as often these days to go to maybe an art museum, and you know that they should, and those experiences hopefully will point them, but they are going to encounter people. They are going to encounter Christians far more often than they will, you know, grand paintings, and can our life reflect the beauty of the gospel in a way that has some of that same, you know, power to point their heart of just sort of reflecting God's beauty in a way that I think kind of empowers the good and the and the truthfulness of our of our message. 

Kasey Olander   

And that's lovely because it's, I love that you're talking about beauty. I mean, as one, I think it's stemming from God, and so it's objective. And sometimes I think culture mis attributes beauty to like femininity or something like that. It almost has like this. I don't know how that association got started, but you're talking about it on so much more of a cosmic scale that there's Grandeur and Majesty and beauty that is also so tied in with truth and goodness, which I think is really helpful. And so it reminds me. I was just talking to someone the other day. She, like, came to the States from Vietnam and visited a Church, and really was not interested in Christianity at all, except that she felt like the people of the church cared about her. They, like, loved her so well, even just her one visiting first Sunday when she didn't intend to come back. Like, that's what she found compelling. And I think that's so beautiful one, that's a great story for her to tell, too. But there's also beauty in the fact that, like, it wasn't that she was like, Well, that was a really compelling argument, you know, like, and maybe there was, but the fact that it was the way that people treated her, and that there was sort of this, like beauty that you're talking about in the way that they loved her, tied up with, you know, truth and goodness and that kind of thing. So let's go there, then into the community. So whichever one of you wants to start, what are ways that community can be another aspect of engaging with the heart nowadays? 

Mike Blackaby   

Yeah, there's, there's so many interesting things about community that I think people are discovering, and they're realizing, wow, like this is, this is not a second order issue, like at the heart of who we are, we, we desire connection and the lack of community and the epidemic of loneliness is actually more harmful than you know, smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. I mean, like to be lonely is actually to die inside and there's this and there's this sense of people are so desperate for community that they'll, they'll look for it and try to find it anywhere they can get it, and so sometimes maybe we see, okay, the church, like the preaching and the doctrine and like that stuff is at the forefront, and then community and fellowship is a good like secondary thing and I think it's primary too. I think being part of the church is to be a gathered assembly of people. To be an Ecclesia is actually to have your life brought alongside of others. And I and so I think many people start there, and then the doctrine comes later. But they actually experience the Gospel before they understand the gospel. They experience it in community. And so the church, you know, and we do this sometimes, maybe well, sometimes not Well, but, but people will experience this gospel in community and in worship with other believers. They'll walk through this, this grand narrative of the gospel and that hooks them, and they're like, Okay, now you can help explain why this is so meaningful to me, but, but what we see in our church is very rarely does somebody show up to church on their own. They might be on a personal spiritual journey, but they always want to take that journey with somebody else, and it's easy for us to read the epistles of Paul, and primarily we read those as individuals in our quiet time, and we just try to apply it to our own personal lives, and we forget these were read to communities like, the Epistles themselves are meant to be practiced within community, meant to be understood and even heard in communities like so I think it's at the foundation of our faith, and it's at the foundation of who we are as human beings. And so in one sense, the church has such a great opportunity, because we can provide community, which is what everybody's looking for, like, there's not a single person who doesn't long for that, right? And so we're positioned very well as a church to say, let's, let's love people in that way, and then, and then, as they walk with us in community, then we can disciple them, we can teach them, but all of that happens in the context of relationships, right? 

Kasey Olander   

And so it's something that people desire, but also something that they need- 

Daniel Blackaby   

I think something that we may not always recognize, that they need, like I know, especially when it comes to Gen Z, or even younger millennials and the younger generations, there is sometimes a sense that they're just, they're sort of the antisocial generation. They're just on their screens anyway. They don't, you know, back in the day, we used to hang out at the park, and now they just, you know, there's sort of the sense that they just don't need that anymore. And I think one of the things that, you know, anyone that's been around young people knows that's not at all, that doesn't, you know, go that's not true to the what we've seen with actual, you know, faces and people and their stories, and even, like with after the pandemic, when they did some of the surveys about just sort of depression, and some of the spikes the people hit the hardest from that experience were, like the young generations. It's the one that you would think, you know, wouldn't change. Yeah, you're all on your screens anyways, alone, like, you just keep doing what you're always doing, like, you know, you're not missing out and yet, depression and, you know, loneliness, just spiked in that generation higher than any other generation that they that they measured. And I think in some ways, the issue has just been because of screens, because some of these social institutions are fading away and aren't as prominent in society anymore. It's just harder to socialize. This is there's so many things going on, there's fewer places to do it that even if there is still that same human need for community and, you know, person to person relationship. It's just harder and harder to find that type of community, which obviously, you know, one of the places in our culture that still offers that every week is the church. Like there's such a there's such a need for that, and the church probably more than any other you know that intergenerational body of people who. There really just no other organization that's better equipped to meet that need than the church. 

Kasey Olander   

That's a great point, that there are multiple generations, and the whole point is to care about each other. Like you don't have to have the same interests of the same schools or the same you know, like you don't have to come from the same location you can be from, like all different nations, and like, the object is to love God and to love one another and so. 

Mike Blackaby   

Well and even like your spiritual gifts, like you're not given spiritual gifts for your own edification, like, like the Spirit, the Spirit equips the people in the church to serve each other. And there's this amazing thing of, like, God, God so badly wants us to live in community and serve each other, that he himself equips us in order to do so, to do so effectively. And like Daniel said, that there's not many places, especially cross generationally, where, where that can happen, and that's special. And I think sometimes we need to be careful, even in our churches, not to separate the generations too often because, because then it just starts to look like everything else. So they go to kids go to school all week in their own generation, and then they go to church, and they're essentially separated out again to be around. And it's like, When are the younger people ever going to be around adults who aren't either a teacher or a parent? You know, when? When can they actually rub shoulders with the other generations and so the church offers this incredible opportunity that, yeah, I agree with Daniel. I can't think of really anywhere else in the culture that offers the same sort of opportunity as the church does. So what a what a great place to be. 

Kasey Olander   

And that's a great place to land with the opportunity that the church is, but also the opportunity that the church has. We've talked about story, we've talked about art and beauty and community, and how all of these are different ways to, again, express what it means to be human and to meet these like universal human longings, to engage with the heart and the emotions in addition, like, you know, not totally dismissing the intellect, but like marrying them together and finding out ways to like communicate gospel truths, we want people to know and to love Jesus and, yeah, to be compelled and drawn into the story of the gospel. So man, our time has flown by. But Mike and Daniel, thank you guys so much for being on the show today.  

Daniel Blackaby   

Well, thank you so much for having us.  

Mike Blackaby   

What a privilege. Thanks. It's been fun.  

Kasey Olander   

And I also want to thank you for listening. So if you like our show, leave a rating and a review on your favorite podcast app. It's a great way to support the show and help other people discover us. And we hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture, to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.