Breaking Down Breakdancing

Kymberli Cook:

Welcome to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. My name is Kymberli Cook and I'm the assistant director at the Hendricks Center here at DTS. And I am so glad that you have joined us today as we talk about—are you ready? because this is awesome—the world of breakdancing and the place it has in the kingdom of God. And we are joined by several breakdancers who are leaders within the Break Free Ministry and they've dedicated their lives to integrating breakdancing and their faith in Jesus Christ. So thank you so much, gentlemen, for taking time to sit with us at The Table today.

Michael Swalley:

Yeah. Kym, thank you for having us. And your listeners are probably like another breaking ministry. Great.

Kymberli Cook:

We hear this so often from DTS.

Michael Swalley:

So often.

Kymberli Cook:

So I think it'd be helpful for each of you gentlemen to briefly introduce yourselves to that listener and be sure to let them know how you ended up breakdancing and how you ended up in the ministry itself. So Michael, let's start with you.

Michael Swalley:

Yeah. Thank you, Kym. And again, it's good to see you again while we were at Dallas together.

Kymberli Cook:

Yeah. We used to sit in classes like Greek and biblical counseling and all of that.

Michael Swalley:

For me, the Lord saved me at a young age. I was born again at a young age. I didn't have a father growing up. I had a mom with MS. So the impact and effects of sin were very much in my life, I could see visibly and feel emotionally from a young boy, and yet it was truly the dynamic love of the church, the spiritual family of the church that God used to save me and put in my heart this passion for other men, other men coming from deep father wounds and not having that same dynamic church family to bring healing and the gospel and really the fatherhood of God.

So for me, growing up in a small town in Minnesota, it wasn't exactly the hip-hop breakdance hub of the world. So I wasn't really exposed to anything until after college. I was with Focus on the Gamily in Melbourne, Australia and had picked up breakdancing as a hobby, just a fun hobby. And I started to break and was with the hip-hop community in Melbourne. That was the first time for me to actually see there's a community, an underground active hip-hop and breaking community.

Kym, I would just practice with these guys at a YMCA. That's all I was doing just as a little athletic outlet. But I heard their stories and I heard the deep father wounding that many of them had, and these were men in their twenties and thirties—it's a culture of mostly men, there are men and women, but was interacting with mostly men—and they were repeating that process, right? It was this generational brokenness. And that, Kym, for me is when God broke my heart for breaking was a hobby for me. It was at that point then that it became a calling, and I knew then and we're much more, I think eloquent now, and our vision is much more clear. At that point, Kym, I was like, I want to reach breakdancers with the gospel. That was all I knew. So for me that was the start. So I was already breaking as a hobby, but that for me is in 2004 in Melbourne, Australia where I really felt like God placed that on my heart as a calling.

Kymberli Cook:

For you listening, this is Michael Swalley, who is, you're the executive director, right? Is that the correct title?

Michael Swalley:

Correct. Yes.

Kymberli Cook:

Of Break Free Ministry. So you're kind of the one who started it. And then we're also joined here by some of your regional directors and they also have other responsibilities in the ministry as well. So Fred, why don't we hear from you next?

Fred Johnson:

Sure. First, thanks for having us. My name is Fred Johnson. I'm 36, originally from Trenton, New Jersey. Right now I live in Philadelphia, so I am the city leader of our break free chapter here in city of Philadelphia. Not too far away from where I was born and raised, about 30 minutes across the bridge. And hip-hop is just, it's always been around. It's always kind of been around. I grew up in it, grew up around it just in my city. It was everywhere. Every element of just hip-hop culture in general was always kind of around me.

At a young age, I didn't see it or understand it to be a calling or a tool in God's hand. It was just my culture. I grew up in a traditional Baptist church, so there was kind of this tension/friction between hip-hop culture and my faith. But in the midst of that, the Lord just began to speak to me at a young age. I was about 13, about being called to the mission field. So I was super passionate about missions, about just cultures, different countries, and at the same time I was passionate about hip-hop.

And growing up I never saw this coming together of these two things. So in my mind I was thinking I would be in a three-piece suit establishing churches around the world. But as I look back now on that time and just seeing the wisdom of God, God had something a little bit more exciting in store for my life. So it's been these years, past few years has just been this coming together of my culture, of hip-hop culture as a whole and my faith and growing in depths of that understanding more this calling and then being able to go back into this same community, the same hip-hop community and tell people, "Hey, come to know Christ, but also find a place for mission. God wants to use this as a tool in his hands and it's something that he do to reach others."

Kymberli Cook:

Isn't it? So we do a lot here at the Center with vocation and calling and helping people understand that. And one of the things that we talk about—and Bill Hendricks actually talks a lot about—is this idea of God's graciousness in giving, basically if we have all been given a gift and a calling, God is gracious enough to make that sweet. So it's something that we actually want to do. So I love that you were saying, I couldn't believe I actually got to integrate these two things. I got to tell him about Jesus, which I wanted to do and I felt called to do, but I also got to do it in my own culture and in my own community and in this place where I already had a passion and just how sweet it is that the Lord is able to do that and is willing, quite frankly, to let us do that and to give a sweetness to the fruit he wants us to continue to create. And then Artem, lest we let you hide in the shadows and tell us about you and what you do for Break Free Ministry.

Artem Usov:

Hello, hello. Yes. Yeah, my name is Artem from Ukraine. I am now living in Spain for about one year and with my family, and I'm a regional leader for Europe and the missionary with Break Free for almost ten years.

Kymberli Cook:

Wow. That's amazing.

Michael Swalley:

It is. Wow.

Kymberli Cook:

And how did you end up in breakdancing or street dancing to begin with?

Artem Usov:

For me, well, obviously a story is very different because of the context of living as historically Ukraine after Soviet Union collapse, only starting to engage different cultures, TV shows, and hip-hop was one of those things that's blow Eastern Europe. And it's interesting that in the Christian world it was something similar happening. Some people call it awakening, that's a lot of churches, a lot of people start organizing. It was I think the awakening. And in my own context, the whole group of hip-hop people, about fifty people came to church and become believers, a whole group, a whole crew. And my parents brought me in the age of thirteen to the church. And this is how I first time get connected and engaged with the hip-hop culture and just right away wanted to do it was very attractive and interesting.

And interestingly enough, my first show and my first mentors was B-Boys, mentors from the church, my older brothers and Christian brothers that taught me how to breaking, but also taught me how to be a friend, a disciple of Jesus. So my identity was always connected with the hip-hop culture with the church. And my first showcases was evangelistic concerts with my city around, we tried to attract people using different elements of art and breaking as we had a big group of B-Boys breakdancers in our city. We try to attract people and then make relationships, get connected with them, share more about our lives and about who we are and how we live and then do next steps. So this is how I started, and it's been almost seventeen years in this journey. Evangelistic ministry and missions have been always on my heart and never thought it's going to be like that. And it's now very new season for us as a family also moving to Europe, building in Europe, learning new languages, learning new cultures, new communities, which is very diverse. Thank you.

Kymberli Cook:

Absolutely. What is the street dancing scene in Spain? Is there one?

Artem Usov:

Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean not only street dance, but the hip-hop culture in Spain is very big part of the culture. And me and my family living in city called Valladolid, it's a region Castilla y León, two hours north from Madrid capital. Everyone knows. And even though it's not that big city of 300,000 people, still we have around, I would say around ten dance schools and the hip-hop community and dance community. Street dance community is making the big steps of being pioneers of the culture in this city.

Kymberli Cook:

Awesome. That is so cool to hear about. All right. Well, we're going to get into that a little bit more in a while, but first, you gentlemen are going to help me understand breakdancing a little bit better because as I was prepping for this podcast, I thought the first thing is I want to know what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

So I mean I did see the Olympics, I watched some breakdancing in the Olympics. I know that that may make you cringe or not, I'm not sure, you can give your thoughts on it. So there has been at least a little bit of exposure to it in the last bit. So in any given set, help us, maybe we can start here. Help us understand what is it that the dancer is trying to accomplish in any given set, what's kind of the goal? And then we'll get to how you would decide whether or not they did a good job or what is good art in this context. But whichever one of you want to jump in on what is trying to be accomplished in a given set, I would love to hear.

Michael Swalley:

That's a good question. Let me preface, can I preface real quick for the listener and then I'll hand it to Artem or Fred.

Kymberli Cook:

Please. Yeah.

Michael Swalley:

As we talk about breakdancing or breaking, we also may use the term hip-hop, the hip-hop culture, which breakdancing is an element of. So within the hip-hop culture, we have the MC, which is the words, the poets of the culture. We have the DJs which bring the music, we have the dancers which express bodily these things, and then the graffiti artists which there, it's like the murals and the arts. So as we talk about breakdancing and dance itself, we'll be talking about it within that context and that because it all very much connected. But yeah Artem—

Kymberli Cook:

I love that. I've never heard those put together before. Mike, you just kind of opened up my world. That was really great. Okay. All right. So hip-hop culture, and here we're specifically focusing on the dance, the bodily communication of that. Okay. All right.

Michael Swalley:

Yes.

Kymberli Cook:

Artem, were you going to chime in on what is being attempted in any given time?

Artem Usov:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like Michael was referencing, there is different elements of the hip-hop culture that is producing expression of this urban art. And breaking is mentioned as one of the main dance elements. But of course we have to give the broader picture that there is a rock dance as a first street element that I think comes from the salsa, Latino dance, Afro dance, and many different combinations of a New Style Hustle, hustle dance, and also having different elements of fights in it.

So dance part was obviously an element of a party, of a life on moving on the music being a part of this. Parties, the hip-hop parties that starts from the early '70s, and this is how dance culture, urban dance cultures, street dance culture, whatever you want to call it, starts growing. And obviously a big part of that was a celebration, a party of the culture. And then later on the battles, which comes from the gang cultures from New York City and different areas in New York City in that time was present. A big part of the dancers also was a part of the street gangs and trying to use different elements of that fight actually using a positive power through the dance. And this is a very short and broad picture of how this all started and what stands behind. And of course there is breakdancing is the first element of different acrobatic moves trying to different spinning moves. And breaking or breakdancing or also known as B-boying is all the same.

And in hip-hop culture we prefer B-boying or breaking. And breakdancing is also more known as a commercial name of that urban dance. So specifically breaking has different styles in itself because of how complex and how interested different street dance style is. It's top rock, which is moves you doing on the floor like stepping steps mostly and drops on the floor. Then there is a go down, which is a drops and transition between dancing on your feet and then going for your tricks. And then there is a spinning part which I already mentioned power moves. And there is tricks which is different flips, different blow ups, how the most attractive part for the people, something you can surprise with your opponents or you can surprise with your crowd depend of the context. And there is a freeze elements of try to emphasize this particular parts of the music. So all of this all together and obviously there is much more, but those are the foundationals.

So answering to your question, the good breaking for my opinion is the breaking that can combine with the music, all different styles and formulations and creatively expressed in the way our bodies allowed us and different strengths we have. For example, one person will be a better dancer just dancing with the music, no tricks. And then that's amazing, it's enjoyable. You can see how aesthetics, how the moves happening. Then there is the other person who is better in the power moves, which is more close to what gymnasts doing during the competitions. That's his strength and he's emphasizing his breaking through that particular style and go on.

For example, something I want to mention that breakdancing is the only one of the first steps of the street dance culture. Obviously now it's much larger pictures. We have a much larger picture of street dance, which is hip-hop dance, also known as party dance, popping, locking, house dance, and many, many, many different, and under this umbrella of street dance, you can find a very different names in very different terms of that. And one of our representatives here, one of our leaders, Fred, he's representing different street dance style. Yeah. Thank you. I hope I answer your question.

Kymberli Cook:

No, you definitely did. Fred, what do you represent?

Fred Johnson:

I do a few different street style dances. Most of these styles of dance came about around the same time, '60s, '70s, inner city cities like Chicago, New York, LA, Fresno. So a bunch of different major cities across the country, primarily African American culture. So these styles came into existence following these trends in music. So you have all of the funk styles, James Brown type of music, funk music from the West Coast, and then you have the styles of dance that people would do to that type of music. So you have popping and locking, these are all West Coast dances that were tied to funk music.

Then as you continue to go through history, the commercialized sound of funk music, disco, brings about a few other dance styles. So you have your whacking, you have your voguing and you have house birth from that too. And these styles are categorized as club styles because they were primarily done in clubs where a lot of marginalized people within the cities would go. Come over to the East Coast, you see more of breaking, which is what my colleagues do, the other guys do. So you have this whole world of different dance styles, different genres of music that were all kind of birthed around the same time. Because of that, we all hang out together.

Michael Swalley:

Fred, but I noticed you didn't mention Alexandria, Minnesota, my hometown.

Fred Johnson:

I always forget. I'm sorry. I always forget.

Kymberli Cook:

What is it known for?

Michael Swalley:

Fishing. Walleye. Know for walleyes.

Kymberli Cook:

So like any art, art I think itself helps illuminate truths and goodness and beauty in the world when it's done well. Obviously it can, I mean art is beholden unto sin and the brokenness of the world just as anything else is. But when it's done really well, it's highlighting something beautiful, something good, something true, and bringing it to people's awareness. So what do you all think that these different styles or just the dance within the hip-hop community in general, what do you think those truths really are that it's highlighting and bringing to people's awareness?

Michael Swalley:

I think one, as we've talked about the different elements, and Artem had mentioned and Fred, that these were connected to music. So I think one is that we were made in God's image that our creativity is always in community. It's not isolated. So even within the dance it's connected to something else. And self-expression is seen within a community in its healthiest forms and with others and meant to elevate because the dance actually elevates the music when done well. The beauty of it can then elevate the music. So it elevates the different aspects I think of the community. And I would just say then also secondly is even within the same music, the expression of dance will look different for each person. So there's the foundational truths within the culture and those though actually give freedom for then self-expression. They're not limiting. So I think within art and within that, you see, so for me, those two things, the communal aspect of it and then how much freedom you get from the foundational elements of it.

Kymberli Cook:

Okay. Artem, Fred, what would you add?

Fred Johnson:

I would say one of the interesting things about these styles, if you were to go to the root of it all, these were people that were looking for an escape. There was a lot of issues, there was a lot of situations that people were going through in their day to day and they formed these communities around music. They formed these communities around the things that they had in common, marginalization or the struggles that they were experiencing in their daily lives. These people banded together and a lot of these art styles were birthed. So many of these dances and these styles were birthed from pain, honestly. It was birthed from pain, it was birthed from not so beautiful things. So see them to come around music and dance and sharing these similarities of where they're coming from, this gives us a pathway to the gospel without a doubt. Opens up the door for us because we believe that we have a response, we have an answer to the issues that originally brought these people together and bring these people together and continue to bring us together as a community.

Kymberli Cook:

I love that. And I love what you're talking about with it comes about because of, and the communities came about, because of pain. And how beautiful, and even Mike, this is what you were saying a bit with regard to being made in the image of God, that these image bearers take their pain and are still able to make something beautiful and something even joyful in the midst of the pain and the outlet itself is something wonderful to behold, even if it is the working out of that pain. I love that.

All right. So we talked about breaking, sorry, I'm not supposed to be breakdancing, and the hip-hop community in general and the difference to others, different styles of dance there. Talk to me a little bit about the community. So we've actually gotten into that a bit with the community coming together because of pain and the expression of pain and outlet, a place to escape. Is that still the case? So we were talking about that being how they were founded. Is that still what those communities are largely gathering around? Talk to us about the current breaking communities and hip-hop communities. Who finds themselves there?

Artem Usov:

I can jump in. So it's a very good question because even here in our meeting, we are representative of different cities and different cultures and I think it's very depends. For example, if we are talking Ukrainian hip-hop culture, it is a majority of representatives of the breaking culture, the dancing culture, especially when I was started in the early 2000s was people who was trying to break a social norms that has been there for many, many years and people who want to bring up some kind of a protest to the traditional culture, which Eastern European still, I believe majority of people still living in the worldview of a traditional cultures. So that was a challenge for young people to bring something colorful, different, something weird in a sense of creating this art protest to the culture. And that's something that drawn them together and the motivation behind that.

I would say it's also very different right now with how you already mentioned with the Olympics, how it's changing. It's now what we're seeing from my opinion, we're seeing this distinct separation from one side of breaking community who want to stay underground within the hip-hop culture and develop an underground style of breaking battles, breaking events, breaking styles of dancing, which means most of the time more unique approaches, not much tricks, not much something visible or power moves, which is spinning moves that everyone likes. It's more about character, it's more about personality, it's more about sometimes outfit, it's more about having fun, well, expressing the art. And then we see another side is this breaking scene is becoming more sporty, more about doing harder faster and more tricks, harder moves, and then best showcases. And now we see more, especially the last, I would say five years, five to seven years we see more breaking coaches emerged are coming to teach, to coach, to break.

We see much more physical education involvement, which has never been there since the beginning because it's a street culture even though moves are very difficult. So those are both in, in the same time, we see a very, I would say a plural picture of sometimes those guys who was first, second, third place on the Olympics in the same time participating underground events, which is also very interesting. So I would say we are right now in a transition in picture is very different from how it started and what it stands before when it started, when there was a lot of gang violence, when it was a lot of representative of the street gangs. And now most of the places where hip-hop dance is practiced, breaking is practiced and growing as a dance studios and breaking and breakdancing spots. Again, commercialized in underground culture and both are good. Both has some profit and both has potential to grow. So I would explain like that. Thank you.

Kymberli Cook:

As you're talking, I'm thinking of, especially when you're talking about the underground community and even particularly in Ukraine where it was kind of a sign of protest or people who felt like they needed to or wanted to protest something, found themselves a place in that community. And we're obviously talking about ties to the gospel and everything through what y'all's ministry is. And I think that shows at least partially some of those that find themselves in these hip-hop communities, they see the brokenness in the world and this is one way that they're addressing it and seeking to work their way through it. But there is already this sense of like, no, I see that something is wrong and I want to call it out and this is what I'm doing to call it out. Is that fair, would you say?

Michael Swalley:

I think so. And good use of call-out, we have a lot of call-out battles in the community. So that was a good job, Kym.

Kymberli Cook:

I'm getting the terminology gentlemen.

Michael Swalley:

Yes.

Kymberli Cook:

Fred, what would you... I'm sorry, Mike. Go ahead.

Michael Swalley:

Oh, sorry.

Kymberli Cook:

No, you're fine.

Michael Swalley:

I was going to say, I think, and it's interesting, as Artem said, the three of us, even from different cities and cultures and seeing different things, and I think that's still though true that a lot of this is still being birthed out of pain and may be a different communal pain. It may be a little more individualized in some of our cities with family pain and again those deep father wounds, which I think is at the heart of a lot of that. But from my experience in LA, Dallas, Chicago, and now I'm here in Colorado Springs in Denver, I do still think that that holds be true that pain is a driving motivator for a lot of it. And seeking, like you said, knowing something is wrong and really trying to battle against that. So Fred, I don't know if you would agree, but that's what I've seen too.

Fred Johnson:

Yeah. I would say there's a mix of things. There's a bunch of different profiles that you'll find amongst the people that are actively a part of the hip-hop scene. You have people who are looking for an escape, people who are looking for a community, you got your music lovers, people who just love music and they want to be around that and that expression. You also have people who are just natural protesters, people who raise their voice, people who like to be in protest. I would say within the hip-hop community at large, the majority of those who are part of this community have this element of protest within them. So you have all of these different profiles coming together. It almost makes me chuckle because that's why some of our meetings can be so intense.

Kymberli Cook:

People have got some feels.

Fred Johnson:

The hip-hop community. There's a lot of different personalities and mixing pain and protest and passion. It's all in a room.

Kymberli Cook:

How do you guys, in your ministry especially, how do you all build bridges with the gospel or to the gospel for each one of those types? So the pain, the protest, the passion, all of those. And how is breaking a part of that? Or is it just, it's a path into those communities or how do you all see the integration? I mean, you are actively integrating it, so how do you do that?

Artem Usov:

In some way, it's very focused, again, very contextualized focus on the city, but we also had some specifics or general approaches that are common in every city. And I would say first, and I hope my brothers agree with me, it's a missional presence when we are with the people trying to build relationships. I would say second is honest relationships, trustworthy relationships. We are building mostly happening where these people already are and in the dancing spots, in the dancing studio, some of us teach, some of us gives classes, some of us as 2, 3, 4 times a week at the practices session spots, which can be someone home, sometimes it can be a metro station. For example, if you go to Madrid, you'll find two different metro stations where breaking spots, where B-boys breakdance, where they're practicing.

There is a missional place for these people to build relationships. Then I would say from relationships, it goes to gospel listening, something we call gospel listening. We try to after in the process of building the trustworthy relationships, hearing people's story and find a gospel that's already present and connected to the gospel, their stories, our stories to the gospel, narrative of the gospel, the gospel narrative, which is creation fall-redemption-restoration of the world, of the people.

And then I would say, yeah, that's the general process we go to. And in present gospeling, challenging, disciplings people. And again, every story is very different, but I would say generally we would go, oh, this, we have a very deep value of relationship-based ministry, incarnational-based ministry, that we need to be present where people are. This is the foundation, we cannot serve or just create one time event for them or give them a speech and then hoping that it's going to change their life somehow. Then we want to be present with them, listening a lot, being present a lot apologetically a lot in their worldview and practicing with them, sharing a life. Our families are home so many times are the places where discipleship is happening and practice is happening and this ministry is happening.

I would say those are some general approaches. And approaches can be also very different. It depends of the city. For example, in Ukraine, in Kyiv, which is capital, one of our partners is a great city urban church called New City Church. And three times a week we have a practices there. So church gives us the space to host practices where we invite dancers to come. And then before session we would have some tea ceremony or a coffee or just time to or fellowship and listening to the story again, connecting with them. And then after session we would also do something together, eat something together, share meals, share stories, share our lives, which usually comes with the gospel listening or the gospel challenge. It's just one of the examples.

Kymberli Cook:

Yeah. That makes me smile Artem as you're talking because it seems so organic for you because that's how you said you even came to know Christ and it was in that context of your brothers encouraging you and talking. So it makes sense exactly what you're saying. What about you, Fred and Mike? How would you talk about how you integrate the gospel and what you're doing?

Fred Johnson:

So there are already some bridges that are established within hip-hop culture that kind of makes it easy for us to enter in with the gospel. One, hip-hop is a global culture. You can find it everywhere. So that automatically makes it easy for us to connect with different cities, different communities. Wherever we go, we know that it's not going to take much work to find the active hip-hop culture in the city. Then another thing that really helps us is that hip-hop is really big on respect. That's a very huge element within hip-hop. So because of that and the fact that we are actively a part, we practice this, we are part of the hip-hop community, we're not just missionaries, we're also a part of the community. So the fact that we are a part of this community and we understand the language, we speak the language, we understand the "pillars and principles" of the hip-hop culture, that automatically gives us kind of authority to speak because we are with these people, we know them.

So that's something that's really huge and that's something that I've seen super beneficial specifically in my context in Philly. When I first got to the city, it was a little difficult in the sense that talking about contextualization, this is a city that isn't really open to people from the outside. So it took me some time to, one, not only become a part of the hip-hop community of this city, but to actually become a part of the Philadelphia community. And then once that happened, that automatically gave me authority to be able to speak. And then the one thing that I've learned here is that people want you to be honest and bold. So if you are trying to share the gospel with someone within the hip-hop community in this city, they don't want you to beat around the bush. They don't want to have that. They don't want to feel like—

Kymberli Cook:

They're not going to respect that.

Fred Johnson:

Exactly. They don't want to feel that you're warming me up to win me over. If you are wanting to share Christ with me, if this is your intention, be real with it, be honest with it. So that's been something that's really helped me here, just being like, listen, this is the gospel, and boom, this is what it is.

Kymberli Cook:

You can decide.

Fred Johnson:

This is what we're trying to see.

Kymberli Cook:

Michael, what do you say?

Michael Swalley:

You know what I love, even with Fred and for us, is within that, the people in Philly know because they know Fred now, it's whatever their reaction is to that, Fred's still showing up. And that's been also, again, what we have seen. And as we've said, this community's already meeting together. And Kym we really can, we could go in any city, any major city around the world and find practice spots and find this community and they are already gathering. And even here in Colorado Springs, it's different than Philly because we are pretty transient. We have people from a lot of places. So the practice spot I go to tonight, it's like we have a few people from Colorado, Florida, Minnesota, Africa, the Middle East, Muslims, Buddhists. We see this gathering. Hip-hop draws a lot of different people, hence why I think Artem and Fred have emphasized, we want to hear the story, their story. And then as we do that, we want to, as the gospel confronts as well, both of lifts the art and the community. We value community, but then confronts and wants to renew that community.

So over time, our goal is to see the church planted at these spots and to see this completion of renewal that this is what community is really supposed to be, and in fact, it's going to enhance the art because there's more freedom. So we've seen, yeah, as these guys have said, Kym, and it's by God's grace. This wasn't something I saw in Melbourne when I was like, "Oh, I just want to spread the gospel here but..."

Kymberli Cook:

I want to give the gospel to these people.

Michael Swalley:

Just give the gospel, but I think as often missionaries, one of the biggest challenges is to find a connecting point. It can be, or finding that... And we have that already. Hip-hop has provided so many of these bridges, and so it is better being able to cross those bridges and the difficulties come as we then interact and engage, but they are there. And across any city around the world, we can enter into the community and engage.

Kymberli Cook:

What a beautiful opportunity. Goodness. I had never thought about that before, but you're right. And it's almost like as you're describing the community of all these different people from all these different places, all gathered with this one uniting purpose, it actually sounds like you're talking about the church.

Michael Swalley:

The church.

Kymberli Cook:

So what a cool idea to take the gospel there and say, "Hey, here's this what I believe to be this truth that will really transform your life and will transform this community if we let it." That kind of thing. Wow. Well, gentlemen, it has been an absolute joy to talk to you about breaking and to find out more about your world in general. And like I said, the art form and the athleticism behind all of it. And quite frankly, y'all's hearts in taking what you've already loved and come to know as far as just the art itself and then saying, "Hey, Jesus has a place here too, and Jesus has things that can help these people." And like you even just said, Mike, Jesus can make this even more beautiful. And I love it and I've really enjoyed my time with you. By all means, my prayers will be with Break Free Ministries because you guys have a unique opportunity. Thank you on behalf of the rest of the church for going out and reaching people who are in those places. We really appreciate it.

Michael Swalley:

Yeah. Thank you, Kym. It's fun.

Artem Usov:

Thank you, Kym.

Kymberli Cook:

It was lovely to meet you, all three of you. And we want to thank you, our listener for being with us. If you like our show, leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app so that others can discover us. We hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.