Pastoring the Pastors

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center and at Dallas Theological Seminary, and we thank you so much for being with us today. Today, our topic is interesting because it's about pastoring pastors. So essentially, we're asking and hopefully addressing a little bit the question of who ministers to ministers. We're joined by two esteemed guests. One of them is Dr. Roger Sharp. He is a shepherd at Standing Stone Ministry and he's also adjunct professor at Houston Christian University. So, Roger, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Roger Sharp: 

Thanks, Kasey. It's a pleasure to be here. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We've had your wife Mary Jo many times, and so it was about time that we were able to welcome you here. So, we also have Dr. Robert Duckworth. He's the director of counseling services here at DTS. You've also been on the show, so thanks for being back with us. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Glad to be back. 

Kasey Olander: 

Grateful for that. I'm interested to talk to you guys about this because I have a few statistics that I'm just going to read for us. Barna Group does a lot of research. They do offer a ton of statistics, but they especially do some reporting about the state of pastors. So in 2021, Barna found that almost 4 in 10 pastors had considered quitting full-time ministry in the past year, and this number rose in 2022. Obviously, the COVID-19 pandemic played a part in that, but that doesn't negate the sentiment. And it's interesting that instead of tapering off after 2021, it actually rose in '22. 

They called this a burnout epidemic, and it's now improved. Pastors are growing in confidence. But at the same time, a more recent study from the summer of 2025, Barna said it this way. They stated that, "Physical, emotional, and mental health among pastors is lower than the general population, and notably behind practicing Christians. This is especially alarming since a leader's wholeness is intertwined with their ministry for better or for worse. And pastors with diminished wellbeing may have a higher risk of burnout. Perhaps most concerning is that pastors may be misidentifying their greatest needs. So Barna has identified this, but despite scoring lowest in relationships and wellbeing, pastors are most likely to say that they need help with leadership development, spiritual growth, and finances, areas where they already demonstrate relative strength." 

So this is really fascinating and relevant to us as Christians because we are either serving in a ministry capacity or we have a pastor that we're sitting under in our local church body that we're a part of. So I just want to open the floor for you guys sort of by way of continued introduction, but to talk about what is your experience with this area? Roger, we'll start with you, but how did you get thinking about this area? 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah, it's been 30 years of full-time ministry on staff at churches in Oklahoma, Texas, and Oregon now. And sitting in that second chair for most of those churches, I felt kind of my role was to support the pastor, help the pastor as best I could. And I kept finding that there was conflict on staff, whether it was from me to the lead pastor or other pastors, but there's always internal conflict. And I always wondered why that was there. Looking back at the very first ministry I was a part of, my first pastor that kind of mentored me, took me into hospitals, showed me how to do ministry, he ended up in jail. And as I look back on those years, I'm like, "What in the world went wrong with him?" He actually died in jail a couple of years ago, but he was there for some nefarious reasons. 

The second pastor I worked with, no longer in ministry. There was some infidelity there on his part while I was on staff that I didn't know about. So I saw the results of that with his two sons, which were in my youth ministry that are really struggling with the church today. So those were the two that just kind of made me go, "What is going on in the church?" But the biggest one for me was when Robbie Zachariah's stuff came out And that just impacted me because I thought someone of his stature that could fall that quickly, any of us are susceptible to the problems that come with not taking care of our souls. So that's introduced to the world of pastoral care. There's something that was wrong and I needed to be a part of that solution. 

Kasey Olander: 

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you shared those examples. So thank you for that. And you're talking about some big names, some recognizable figures in addition to people in your own personal life. That is so tragic. And I think a lot of us have maybe not that exact same experience, but if not that, then very similar experiences where we are seeing leaders fall and being hurt and wounded by that and just noticing, "Hey, what can we do about this? " And yeah, you talked about being part of the solution. So thanks for that, Roger. 

What about you, Robert? 

Robert Duckworth: 

I would agree with Roger in terms of being a part of the solution. That was probably my onboarding of becoming the director of counseling services at Dallas Seminary. 

There are some that joke about it. I was reluctant to take the role here and it was nothing about the seminary, nothing about the role, was grateful for the opportunity. I was just so enamored with the work that I was doing in the juvenile justice system and working in criminal justice. And that was kind of my world. I thought I would probably even retire from that. And that was the thing that I think held me up from maybe taking this role when the opportunity first came up. Yet what really pushed me over the edge, being a part, as Roger said, of the solution, when the Lord opened up my ears and opened up my eyes to see that I would have an opportunity to pour into, serve, care for the future pastors, missionaries, ministers, counselors, whomever, particularly pastors that would go out and preach and advance the gospel, I knew that I was going to be in a multiplier effect and I was just thrilled with the opportunity. 

And that was really what pushed me over the edge to say, "I can really make an impact for the kingdom." I get to do that every day. As of today, I do that. I get to serve future pastors. Those that are caring for flocks, caring for people on the mission field, I have the opportunity to do that and I'm excited about it. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. You guys are highlighting two different angles of this same kind of issue. Yeah. Roger, you're talking about the fallout that can happen, the devastation, the tragic things that are happening when people don't care for their own souls. And you're talking about, okay, what if we come on the preventative side of that? People who are enrolled at DTS or working here are looking towards future pastoral ministries and things of that nature. But what can we unearth now and bring to light instead of waiting until like 10, 15 years down the road when either they're burned out or suffer any kind of major consequences? 

Robert Duckworth: 

Exactly. If we don't do something on the front end, I've said this before, if we don't do something on the front end preventative, they'll embarrass us on the back end and they'll embarrass more so the church. 

Kasey Olander: 

Well, let's dig into that a little bit. Why do we think that this is such an issue? Because like I said, so many of us, like if we don't know someone personally, I've at least heard of these stories of great leaders that were doing awesome things and then had this other secret life, had this other secret sin. And why do we think that this is such a frequent, tragic occurrence? Roger, do you have thoughts? 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah, most of my ministry was in Southern Baptist churches, so I can speak from that perspective. When I was on staff, I noticed that lead pastors that I worked with and other pastors didn't really have anyone that they could talk with, whether it be a spiritual friend or a spiritual mentor or other pastors. And I think the reason for that, especially in evangelical circles is if a pastor divulges sin patterns or thoughts or whatever that might come back to the congregation or to the board, to the elders or the deacons or whatever governing body might be there, which might put him on the hot seat and he might lose his job. So he can't talk to staff, of course. He can't talk to the congregation members. He can't talk to other pastors in the same city. So he really learns, as I did, to hide all those sin patterns and other things that come to the surface for fear of losing job. So we isolate ourselves thinking that we're protecting ourselves and our families. It's just kind of a vicious circle. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, absolutely. The consequences, it feels so monumental like, okay, if I confess this sin, then there's tons of ramifications in a different way than maybe an accountant doesn't lose their job. If they have this other secret struggle on this side, they're totally interconnected in a different way for pastors. Yeah. What are your thoughts, Robert? 

Robert Duckworth: 

They lack what's called... And Dr. Eric Sullivan, he had done an article. They co-authored an article with some other folks from Regent University, I think a few years ago that dealt with one of the constructs they looked at was self-disclosure flexibility. How much flexibility does the pastor have in expressing problems or issues where you feel like you're canceled, you're out in those scenarios? 

And so that's what I love about the role that I'm in, is that the seminary community, our leadership, our board, our executive committee, our president have all said, "We're giving you a spot. We're giving these students a spot where they can go. It will be safe to address the concern." And they're coming and they're addressing the concerns and they're working on it earnestly. And so when they have that self-disclosure flexibility, they're more likely to engage in services and work on those things where you don't necessarily feel like, well... 

And I used to be in that situation. I would have never told someone when I was in corporate America of challenges that I have now and be as transparent as I am now. When I was in corporate America, if you said something like that was a sign of weakness and it could probably cost you your job. And if you're on that, climbing up that corporate ladder, you didn't want to do anything to jeopardize it. And that's a different world that we live in now. Even corporations have adopted it. So we don't want to be behind the secular world, the corporate world, in terms of giving people a place where they can go sit down and address their concerns. And I think that's what's kept people from even saying anything. And so they go into hiding and they try to work on it by themselves. "Who can I trust?" 

I think Roger was saying all those mentors and everything, I think Barna did some research on it back in '23 that only about 19% of pastors sought out professional counselors or therapists. Now, the overall group that they were looking at were like mentors, life coaches, professional life coaches, other support. But out of all of those, it was about 65% that were not accessing any of those. And then only about 19% were seeking bonafide mental health services. So that is problematic. Over half your pastors are not going to anyone to work on anything. We still have something way outside of counseling that you don't have to go through 60 hours of education and 3,000 hours of a postmaster's practicum. You can still be what's called an accountability partner and they didn't have that. That's scary. That's very scary. 

Kasey Olander: 

It is. Yeah. You guys have really talked about the widespread nature of this issue, but also like the depth of it. And honestly, approaching it with compassion, it's understandable that people get into this position. They think that they're protecting either themselves, their own financial wellbeing, their families and stuff. When in reality, the flip side of it is that maybe to pursue health, it would involve this transparency, this vulnerability and this fancy word, self-disclosure flexibility to say, "Okay, I have the flexibility to be able to share parts of myself," which is not to say that they need to confess all their sins from the pulpit, but some people have taken completely the opposite turn and been like, "Okay, well, I don't confess to anyone because if anyone found out about this..." And then that's the way that things spiral is like festering and the darkness is where sin likes to play. 

So are there some common fears and anxieties that we'll say pastors and ministers are particularly susceptible to? Because obviously there are. I mean, all of us struggle with sin. It really shouldn't be a surprise when people come to us confessing sin as, "I didn't realize you'd ever sinned before. I'm shocked." So on the flip side, we should also be able to go to other people and confess and things like that. But are there particular sins that the ministry kind of care, pastoral roles, people in those positions are more susceptible to? 

Robert Duckworth: 

From what I've seen in research, what I've seen in some of the books, like I was reading a book called The Wounded Pastors: Navigating Burnout, Finding Healing, and Discerning the Future of Your Ministry. And it really gave an opportunity for Carol Howard and James Fenimore to look at some different testimonials of pastors. And one of the testimonials there was about a pastor who was really just under the pressure of leaders, pressures of culture, "Hey, this church is doing this. Why can't we do it?" And those pressures created an anxiety and an overworking to try to keep up until the point that he was moving towards burnout, physical, not eating healthy, trying to self-medicate through food, not spending enough time with his family, all of those things took place and it becomes this anxiety of, "How do I keep up in this role?" And, "I must be strong all the time." 

But Galatians 6:2 says, "We're bearing others' burdens." How can you expect to be strong all the time? 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Roger, anything to add to that? Anything that pastors- 

Roger Sharp: 

He's absolutely right. But the irony of pastoral ministry is that pastors spend their lives guiding and helping and praying for other people, and yet they don't have anybody in their lives. And I think to go a step further with that is many pastors justify that they don't need anybody in their lives. And I think that self-examination is not there. Because sin at its base, it hides these type things, it hides sins. And over time, if we don't get someone to see that within us or to call us out on things to be just upfront, I think we start to justify those sins and it becomes a part of who we are. And then we're just headed down the wrong path very quickly. If we don't have a spiritual friend or another pastor or a mentor or a spiritual director or a counselor that can speak into our lives because we can't see our own faces and I think we don't believe that at some point. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. The cobbler's children have no shoes. They're... 

Roger Sharp: 

Absolutely. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I think the phrase that you used really aptly earlier was this vicious circle of you get into this, "Okay, well, I can't tell anyone because if they found out, then I'd be in trouble, but now I'm in trouble because I haven't told anyone and they might find out." It's over and over this pressure of a lot of times a really upfront role, at least in front of some kind of audience on Sunday mornings, in addition to the pouring out and people coming with their problems. And so how would you guys identify the relationship between... Because there's an appropriate level of confidentiality, like with professional counselors, with these caring roles, with pastors, people are coming to pastors with, "My marriage is in trouble. I'm having this issue at work, this family staff." People are coming to them with really heavy things. And I love the idea that a pastor is keeping things confidential, but where is that relationship between confidentiality and transparency for pastors as they care for people? 

Robert Duckworth: 

So you say the relationship between... And help me understand that again, if you could flesh it out a little bit more. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So they're keeping things confidential for people. They're not telling everybody people's business about like, "Did you know that Susie came and told me this?" But at the same time, the pastor, if it's weighing on him or something like that, let's say it's a pastor, how can he be transparent with people in his life while still holding people's confidence with what they've shared with him? 

Robert Duckworth: 

Great question. Now thank you for clarifying that. So what I've seen in the past, they didn't do it too well, the counseling sessions came out in the sermons as an illustration. That was so scary. And I have literally heard pastors get in the pulpit and they date stamp stuff. "I was talking with a couple just last Wednesday." That is dangerous and they're preaching about the very people right there in their congregation. Now I don't see that happening too much anymore. People have learned that. I think the solution to that is having... What we do in the world of counseling is we have something called supervision. 

Supervision is so important with our or peer supervision where you're able to go in and when a supervisee or someone that's in the profession is having some challenges and when they're having those challenges, they're able to speak with their supervisor about those challenges. "Hey, this is something I experienced." I've had counselors go in and say, and this is a long time ago, "Hey, I met with an attractive female today. She was very attractive that came in for counseling today. That was it. Just want to say that. I want to put that out there that I met with a client that was very attractive." I've been in that position before. I've had attractive clients and in doing that, it's just putting it out there, creating an accountability. You almost need a supervision for pastors where they have those peer supervisors, those mentors, someone that they can go to and say, "Hey, this is bringing up some old stuff up in me." 

Just bring it out there and say it, have that accountability so those individuals can pray about those things, they can recommend that you go talk to someone about those things so that you don't end up in a very compromising position. And so I think that that's one of the solutions is having those go to persons. 

And as you said that, Kasey, I've never thought about the fact that maybe there's a way to mirror what we do for preparing counselors to go out into the field. I do it every Thursday. I do it every Tuesday when I teach classes called internship, where I'm preparing those counselors to go out. And when I see things in the video that show me that this might have been something called countertransference where you're starting to experience the client's content and you're connecting or overly connecting with the client, that could create a problem. We need to almost do the same thing with pastors where there's almost some pastoral supervision, support in there. And there's nothing formal out there. We may call it mentorships and what have you, but I think there's something, I think there's an opportunity for replicating some of the things we do in the clinical world and counselor preparation world for our ministers, for our pastors. 

You may have just given me an idea about some things we can do right here on Dallas Seminary's campus. Why am I coming here finding more work at The Table Podcast? 

Kasey Olander: 

Don't tell our future guests. Don't mention that part of this episode. That's great. 

Roger Sharp: 

Maybe there's a grant out there for that, maybe. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. If anyone would like to give us money, that would be great. 

Roger Sharp: 

There you go. 

Robert Duckworth: 

I know how to ask. I know how to ask. 

Kasey Olander: 

There you go. 

Roger Sharp: 

It's such a good point, Kasey. I'll jump in here if that's all right. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, please. 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah. And I was thinking about the two roles that I've kind of come into the last decade is as a spiritual director. So I received my training in spiritual direction and I've been seeing a spiritual director myself for the last four or four and a half years. Wouldn't change that dynamic for anything because that is a space that I can go to with a seasoned veteran of the faith and I can divulge anything in that space. So as a pastor, man, that is so valuable to me to have that space to go to the depths of the soul that... I didn't have anything like that before I discovered spiritual direction when I was working on my doctoral ministry degree and I never understood what spiritual direction was. So that is an option for people if they don't have a spiritual director. That could be a possibility to fill that role that Robert is talking about. 

My other role is with Standing Stone Ministry where we offer space for pastors free of charge to come in and just do exactly what you're describing there and kind of do a triage or to be an ongoing space where people can talk about their challenges in ministry. Not to be a promo for Standing Stone, but that's kind of where I spend my days is helping pastors and ministry leaders in that space. So there are some options that are out there. I'm going to lean into that spiritual direction piece because the pastors that I work with, boomers, Gen X, millennials, all stripes, they see the value of having somebody like that in their lives to just listen deeply and to care for their souls. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. And you guys have highlighted such important things. Robert, you used the word accountability and your example of airing out dirty laundry from the pulpit was a great what not to do and a new fear that I'm sure people are going to have now. But no, but we've seen, okay, the ways that this is obviously not appropriate, you guys have highlighted some really good, "Okay, then what is a solution?" If the solution is not, okay, announce it publicly to everyone or keep it super private and don't tell anyone anything they're like having a safe, intentional relationship either with a spiritual director or with a therapist. That's interesting that there are some pipelines. 

Roger, you said that, "Okay, as I was getting trained in spiritual direction, I'm giving spiritual direction and I'm receiving spiritual direction," like that you have both of those in play. Robert, you said, "Okay, getting trained to be a counselor and receiving counseling or supervision," but also I think a lot of therapists have therapists go to therapy and stuff. And so I'm not sure why there's not the same expectation that pastors are being pastored. So that was a great example with Standing Stone ministry and that you're identifying a need. There are people who do so much caring for souls who obviously need their souls cared for as well. So those are really good examples and ways to go. 

That was more about the relationship of confidentiality at the same time as being transparent. Do you guys have other steps that people in helping professions can take to build in more like spiritual, mental health, caring for their own souls in addition to developing these intentional safe relationships? 

Roger Sharp: 

Well, my mind immediately went to sabbaticals. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's good. 

Roger Sharp: 

I have a couple of pastors that I've worked with where they had not only a spiritual director, but they also had a therapist and they had a sabbatical coach and they had somebody on their church that was kind of overseeing that whole process. And it was funny when my directees, the pastors that I worked with would come in and talk about their sabbatical, some of the things that I would notice and just kind of voice to them, they said, "That's exactly what my therapist said." And it doesn't surprise me that in these healing ministries that there is so much overlap. If you have a person that's well-trained in taking care of the soul, people are going to see it from different vantage points. And I think that's a beautiful thing that we can use all these helping ministries to help our pastors if they're willing to reach out and get this help. 

But to the point of what we're talking about today, do the churches see this need? Are they coming along and saying, "Hey, we see that when we have a healthy pastor, that we're going to have a healthy congregation which helps our communities to be healthier"? 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. Yeah. Especially if the pastor is modeling health, then a lot of leadership is more caught than taught and people are going to observe that and see the healthy rhythms even if he doesn't explicitly do it from the pulpit, although maybe you could. Any other thoughts on how people can develop healthy spiritual rhythms? 

Robert Duckworth: 

Oh, well, I think hobbies, activities where your whole world is not about the church. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. 

Robert Duckworth: 

If you're able to go out and have those activities to actively engage in activities with people that aren't in the church, you don't need the pastor always playing golf with elders. Go play with college friends, people that aren't even connected to the church. It might give some pastors an opportunity to share the gospel. 

Kasey Olander: 

There you go. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Instead of just doing it on Sundays, it will give them an opportunity to go out and do some outreach even in that area, but not ministering at that time, where they're literally doing self-care, where they're engaging in activities. They're pickleball, golf, hunting, go to a deer lease with someone, go somewhere, go fishing, do something that gets you away. One of the things I do to care, I do karaoke. I stumbled into karaoke. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's awesome. 

Robert Duckworth: 

My sister left a karaoke box at my house for my son's graduation party. We didn't even do karaoke. I went in there and tried to learn the whole thing. I was like, "How does this thing work? Where do you put the CDs?" I didn't know. You don't need that anymore. So I figured this whole thing out, getting on YouTube and finding something, and I just fell in love with just playing around with music. So I have that outlet. So when I walk away from serving others and pouring into others, and I'm also a pastor, I'm a preaching pastor at my church. So it's not like counseling is my only thing. I have to have those outlets because I pour out as the pastor, I pour out as the preacher, I pour out as the counselor, as the supervisor, as the leader. I have to go and pour in by just finding ways to really release. 

I mean, I have a son that just wrapped up his high school football season. And one of the things about that is on Friday nights, I would literally go out and I let off steam. I acted out at games. Not so much that the games were just bothering me, but that was a way to just release some of those things. And so I was able to function on Mondays. The problem is often Mondays I would come in without a voice because I've been yelling at referees and my son. All of those areas. 

Kasey Olander: 

I'm glad that you brought that up because I was actually going to ask you guys about maybe a story of times when you've seen this done really well. It can be an example from your own life, how you've cared for yourself and seasons when you've been in a healthy spot, healthy rhythms. But I love so much the fact that you're doing karaoke and sharing that with us and that's so good. I did not see that coming when I walked into this episode. 

Robert Duckworth: 

No. 

Kasey Olander: 

I appreciate that. 

Robert Duckworth: 

I didn't see myself disclosing that. I didn't know if I had self-disclosure flexibility. 

Kasey Olander: 

This is a safe place. 

Robert Duckworth: 

But it's so much fun. So much fun. And to have that outlet and I've always had... I mean, even my own family's concerns. Somebody asked me, one of my students asked me the other day, "How do you turn it off when you leave here?" I have my own set of problems when I get home. I have teenagers at home at the time of this and there's always things going on. I have financial concerns. I have nothing bad. It's just- 

Kasey Olander: 

You're a person. 

Robert Duckworth: 

I have to think. I'm a person. I have to think future. I have to look at the economy. I have to do all those things. I'm in the world out here operating within the world. So I have my own set of issues. I'm not thinking about clients when I drive away from the seminary or when I had a private practice. I don't think about clients. My mind is now on when I open that garage, I'm getting ready to step into the Duckworth world. And when I step into that world, I don't have space for anything else. 

Or I'm stepping into enjoyment. I'm still one of those husbands and fathers that when I go home, I don't dread seeing lights on. I look forward to seeing my family up to see who's up so that I can pick on them, laugh with them, laugh at them, let them laugh at me, have fun. And that is how I'm able to connect and disconnect from the burden. So you asked the question about how do you just hear all of those things and release it? That's how I'm able to release it. And I know different people that are working in this world have different ways in which they do it. And it's not going home recording another podcast. It's not going home writing another sermon. You should. And you carve out time. It should be on your Outlook calendar. Care, self-care, unwinding. And my admin did that for me, forced it on my calendar so that I would be healthy for our students. 

Kasey Olander: 

She's great. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Oh, she's awesome. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I hear you saying a lot of different things. You're sort of encompassing these different dimensions of personhood. You're talking about music, you're talking about relationships and family connection. You're talking about your marriage and your kids. You're also talking about random hobbies that you didn't even know you would enjoy. So Roger, what about you? What are either some outlets for you or ways that you've seen this done well when people are maintaining their spiritual, emotional, mental health? 

Roger Sharp: 

Well, I think it's just so great that we're focused on the family here, which is wonderful because I'm very much a family man as well. In fact, my daughter and her husband and now my new granddaughter have moved from Austin up here to Oregon with us. And so they've moved in for a time. And so when I come home, the lights are on, it's going to be chaos and fun. And we've always played well together. We're big Lord of the Ring, Star Wars fans, so we do a lot of movies and those type things. But up here in the Pacific Northwest, the big thing out here is going on a hike or going skiing or going to the coast. And this is a new dynamic for me because I grew up in Oklahoma and we don't have a lot of that there. So I'm learning to lean into it, but a lot of the people out here, they do a lot of hikes and waterfalls and whatnot. So I find that I'm having conversations that lead to spiritual conversations just kind of naturally when we're out doing those things. 

But when I'm working with my pastors, I want to kind of turn a little bit of a direction here, the Outlook calendar, the Google calendar, whatever it is, you have to be intentional about play, about fun. Because if you're not going to put that date night on your calendar, it ain't going to happen. You'll think, "Well, we just went on a date." "Well, yeah, that was four months ago." And all of a sudden it's just gone. A lot of my pastors, I tell them, if you're going to develop a rule of life for your spiritual rhythms, you got to do that with your family stuff as well. And you've got to love your wife well. You've got to play with your kids. You've got to go out and see those football games. And even if the Cowboys are having a terrible season, you still have to go support them and have a good time out there and lose your voice over that. But yeah, that intentionality, if we're not doing that well, we're probably not living life to the full outside of ministry because life is about family. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So I'll transition us kind of into a different direction. These are really great ways to go. And I hope that our listener is encouraged to implement some of these things or like you said with your admin, to encourage the people around them to implement some of these things, to be intentional with the healthy rhythms. And I love how you guys both highlighted some embodied activities. You're talking about hiking and singing and these different aspects that are totally different from when you're sitting down with an individual and caring for them. A lot of times that is really stagnant. It's using your body and your voice in a different way than these totally other creative outlets. 

So what are some ways that our listener could potentially recognize some unhealth and maybe some diagnostic questions to ask him or herself? You highlighted, Robert, at the very beginning of this episode, you talked about people not eating right or not sleeping well. What are some of those cues that we can look for? Not that we're trying to go around judging other people, but some kind of warning signs that we can look for to see if we're in an unhealthy place? 

Robert Duckworth: 

Yeah. In the book on Wounded Pastors, they seem to ask questions that were more reflective and diagnostic. "Are you finding yourself not enjoying what you're doing? Are you dreading going to work? Are you dreading putting together sermons? Are you purposely avoiding certain types of meetings or populations in the church? Are you not wanting to go to elders meetings," or something like that? And when you see those things happening, you're moving towards burnout. It's no longer exciting. One of the things, and I do not have the roadmap. I do not have the roadmap to spiritual self-care and ministry. I do not. I'm doing the best I can, but as of this morning, I was excited driving to work. When I leave today as a result of this podcast and other things and meeting with students and meeting with leaders, I drive away from the seminary every day in the midst of awful traffic on Interstate 30, fulfilled. 

The moment that stops, that is a warning sign. So when you ask those diagnostic questions, "Am I no longer finding joy in a certain activity? Am I finding it burdensome?" That doesn't mean you quit ministry. That doesn't mean you leave the church. That may mean what Roger said earlier. Sabbatical, some time off, Christmastime, advent season, take some time down, let someone else preach. There's a younger minister there that desires to preach and they're good and they're not going to take your church away from you. They're going to preach and you'll still be the pastor. Those kinds of things have to happen. And so really finding those times to have that downtime and really care for yourself, but you have to ask those diagnostic questions that give you warning signs. I am all about, in the world of addictions and recovery, warning signs and triggers. Catch them early. One of the best weather patterns you can have is you get warning signs on tornadoes, but don't let it be like an earthquake and it just creeps up on you because you don't have warning signs there. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. 

Robert Duckworth: 

It just shows up. You have to be ready. But if you get a tornado warning, that means take shelter. 

If you get a warning in ministry, that means take the time to care for yourself, seek the sabbatical, seek a few days off. It may just take one or two days. It doesn't require six months or a year or a month. It may just require a couple of days just to recharge your batteries. Take a mental health day. That can be so valuable, but ask those reflective and honest diagnostic questions, or maybe have your accountability person to do that very thing, to ask you those questions. And if you're finding some yeses in there, you probably are moving towards burnout. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Yeah. Those are really helpful. Roger, any other warning signs to add to be on the lookout for? 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah. There's a book written called The Body Keeps a Score. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Oh, beautiful. 

Roger Sharp: 

And I have found that that is so true over the years where I'm starting to experience things in my body and I'm like, "What is this? " And the body knows before I know. And so I've learned over the years to just be more aware when my body's talking to me, "What is that? Why is that? What am I neglecting?" So there's that piece of it. 

We've also developed a ministry inventory that we use as an assessment tool. And it talks about all the things of life, the social, the ministerial, the body as well. But we threw in a new one this past year talking about the digital, and that's becoming more of a major concern for people in general because we've got that phone in our hand all the time. And so taking a sabbatical from the digital that we have in our life is a very healthy practice as well. And then taking monthly or quarterly retreats, which Dr. Duckworth was talking about, just having those moments of going, "I know I'm going to break for half a day or a day just getting away from everything so I can do kind of a self-assessment. I can do an examine and go, 'What am I? Who am I? Where am I?' Being present with who I am as an embodied soul." 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Asking yourself, "Why do I have so many headaches? Why does my stomach always hurt?" In the absence of these, I-have-the-flu kind of situations, there can be indicators, warning signs that our bodies will tell us and that they'll notice for us. And so I love that, that there's things to be on the lookout for, diagnostic questions to ask ourselves as ministers, as people who are caring for others at the same time as that doesn't mean, "Well, it's all over," and we quit ministry and everything's... But if we look at the early signs of warning, not once the tornado's actually here, but when it's just a warning, then we can respond to it and we can get that accountability partner if we don't already have one. We can identify where a safe relationship is and we can implement some of these healthy rhythms. 

So I'll ask one more thing. Are these things that you have to have a really big church with a lot of money and a lot of staff in order to be able to do these kinds of things, these sabbatical rhythms or anything like that? How is this accessible for people who are on smaller teams? 

Robert Duckworth: 

Well, one of the things, you have to get really creative in this area. There are some denominations... We had a former director of counseling that was here, Dr. Terry Woodson. When he left Dallas Seminary, he started working for his denomination. It was Evangelical Covenant Churches of America or something like that. And he was actually in the capacity because he also had his license as a counselor. They were serving those pastors, I think, for little or no cost in that. I don't know the particulars on it, but that was available for pastors in that denomination. There are resources out there. 

One of the things we're trying to do now on a smaller scale, and that doesn't necessarily serve pastors, but we're looking at now offering internships in our counseling services area so that churches who have folks working in those churches, that can be helpful for them to access those mental health services. I have done more calls than a few here at the seminary where people call and said, "Hey, we want to know about where we would find a good counselor." And I've literally gotten on Psychology Today with folks that have called into the seminary with ministry leaders working for their ministry leaders or whatever to say, "Hey, the pastor needs these services." And I helped them find two or three referrals to go to in those capacities. 

Another thing I've done, and I want to say not all pastors are resistant to this, there are more churches now that are doing wellness workshops, bringing us in as mental health professionals to talk about ministry care for ministry leaders and other pastors. We did an event last fall up in Maryland at New Song Church and Ministries. One of our graduates, Dr. Bernard Fuller, had an event where he brought Dr. Michelle Woody and I in to do this ministry care event at his church. And he invited pastors for little or no cost to talk about wellness, triggers, warning signs, self-care, all of the preventive things. And then at the end of that, we were able to guide them to websites where they could get access to those services. Many of these churches do have the resources that they can go to. 

So I think you have to get creative and find those resources. Counseling will cost money, but why not, as a church, invest in your pastor's mental health and have those services available for them to go to? I would say if I was bringing in a pastor on a pastoral search committee right now, I would probably begin, because I'm biased and in the profession, I would already have a list of counselors that they could go and talk to on speed dial and get in to see them. And then do the preventive work because the enemy would have it no other way than to take out the head. Let's protect the head by giving them the services, the outlets that they can go to care for themselves. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, that's great. Roger, any other thoughts? 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the neglect of these things is very costly. We see that repeated in patterns all over American churches, but if we start investing like Dr. Duckworth is talking about, that's going to bring life to those communities. So just having that mindset, that switch, even in small churches where, okay, maybe we can't afford to do this on a monthly basis, but maybe we can do this on a quarterly basis, or we can give more time off to go be a part of these seminars, these free seminars that are offered. So any church, as long as they've got that on their agenda as we really are wanting to invest in the health of our pastor's life, I think they can find a creative way, a creative solution to make that happen. 

And you're right, I'm finding that post-pandemic, the millennial generation are kind of changing that narrative, and a lot of the younger lead pastors that I'm working with, they're just coming in saying, "Well, this is an expectation. It's going to be a line item budget for me and for my family." And they're wanting that wellness piece embedded into the financial aspect of the church. And I'm loving that I'm seeing that and that it's starting to become more mainstream. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. That it's removing some of the stigma of like, "Oh, it's embarrassing to go to counseling." People are a lot more embracing it and moving towards health. And so is there... I want to give you guys a chance for just a maybe one sentence closing statement if you want to sum things up before we go. So Robert? 

Robert Duckworth: 

I always tell my students in internship classes, "The ethical counselor goes to counseling." That helps them to work through their own challenges so that they don't mess up ethically. Let's expand that. The ethical pastor goes to counseling. 

Roger Sharp: 

That's so beautiful. I don't know that I can do anything better than that. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Help me. 

Roger Sharp: 

No, I would just add the piece about the care of our mind, the care of our souls, the care of our bodies is so important and one can't dominate the other. We have to sit back and be self-reflective as pastors and say, "What do I need to be a healthy leader, a healthy pastor?" Because everything that I'm going to teach my flock is going to emanate out of my health. And if I'm unhealthy, we're going to be teaching unhealth to our flock. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Jesus had a lot to say about religious leaders who are not working on their hearts and not interested in their own transformation. So I think that this is encouraging and challenging. So if you're in ministry, if you're a pastor or some other kind of ministry leader, I think all three of us would urge you to find safe places. If it's paid therapy, if it's safe friendships and accountability, but find those areas of relational safety and accountability so that they can be on the lookout for you and you can be on the lookout for your own warning signs. And we've talked as well about things that we need to put into place. If we don't have a wonderful admin, then putting it on our own calendar, these rhythms of rest and reflection and times to be restored with the Lord and to think about how as leaders we can be healthy and well-rounded as we care for the souls of other people. 

So Roger, Robert, thank you guys so much for being on the show today. 

Robert Duckworth: 

Thank you for having us. 

Roger Sharp: 

Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I'm grateful for this conversation and I hope that you're encouraged as well. If you're a master ministry leader, or like I said, if you sit under a pastor, then I hope that this also gives you some ways that you can pray for him and pray for the ministry leaders in your life, that you can care for them and think about as we change our mindset and think about the pastoral care that pastors need. 

So we thank you for joining us today. Thank you for listening to The Table Podcast. And if you like our show, go ahead and leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app because it's a great way to support the show and help other people to discover us. And so we hope that you join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.