Trauma Revisited

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center at DTS and today, our topic is trauma. We did do an episode about this already, if you're curious. That gave an overview of this topic, an introduction to trauma. It was episode number 548 and it was called Understanding Trauma. If you haven't heard that, we recommend it to you, encourage you to go listen to that. 

It was first released in April of 2023, so give it a listen if you're new to this topic or if you're just interested. We also, before we jump into our conversation, do want to say, perhaps you deduced this from the title of the episode, but some of the subject matter might be difficult for people or heavy, hard to listen to, in the fact that we're addressing the topic of trauma. We would caution you in that. 

If you're not in a spot for it, we would encourage you to listen to some of our other content. We have episodes about things like friendship and fashion. If you'd prefer that, if you'd rather have a lighter topic for today, enjoy that. But if you're interested in trauma, if you're like, "I'm good to go and I'm ready," then we'll jump into our conversation. 

Today we're joined by Andi Thacker. She's associate professor of Counseling Ministries at DTS. Andi, thanks for being back with us today. 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We're also joined this time by Josh Freeman. He's adjunct professor of Counseling Ministries here at DTS. 

He's also director of counseling at Dallas Life Homeless Recovery Center. Thanks for being with us, Josh. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I mentioned that we did this previous episode about trauma that gave just a broad overview of the topic. We defined trauma as anything that shocks the system, anything that it could be too much, too little. Anything that sends a person's nervous system into fight or flight or a shutdown. That was the definition that we're working with. 

But we also, Andi's hot take from our last episode, was that trauma is not just a niche group of people that it applies to, but we said that everyone has experienced trauma. It's not just maybe a distant relative or somebody that is a small subset of the population, but rather that everyone has experienced trauma. This is an episode that is appropriate and applicable to literally everyone, since we live in a fallen world. 

In this episode, we're going to hope to focus on types of trauma. We might get a little bit more specific about the causes and the effects. We'll still do a high-level overview of these things, since we don't really have time to plumb the depths in the next 45 minutes or so. But we'll get a little bit more specific into what trauma might look like and how it could affect our society and the places that we live. 

Yeah. I guess, Andi, why don't I start with you in asking what is the importance of learning about trauma, about types of trauma? How could this be a value to our listeners? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. Well, I think because most everyone walks around with some sort of impact from trauma, we have the potential to either use that for healing or hurt others because of our unresolved experiences. 

So part of it is just being safe and not acting out of the brokenness that we find ourselves in. 

Kasey Olander: 

Sure. If we're not aware of something, then we can't address it. 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Josh, anything to add to that? 

Josh Freeman: 

I think that's exactly right. I think we're often walking around unaware of what's happening with us, and so a growing awareness of our own experience, our own history. 

Then as well as what we've experienced and how it is either limiting us or being a limitation or causing harm to other people. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We want to be able to, I think, you mentioned being safe for other people, and also finding healing and wholeness that we can encourage one another towards that end. 

Also, that we can make steps towards that and for ourselves. What are y'all's thoughts about why maybe this hasn't been addressed as much historically, and why this is an important topic for right now? 

Josh Freeman: 

I think it's uncomfortable. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. 

Josh Freeman: 

There are a number of authors that would say, "This has been addressed historically, but in various contexts." Then inevitably, we get too uncomfortable with it and we say, "No, no, no, no. We're going to relegate that to like we're just going to not talk about it anymore." Then something else comes up. 

I think it is uncomfortable for us to recognize our own limitations, maybe coming to grips with the reality of a broken world. Or that things might be less than ideal for us and maybe for the rest of our lives, or unideal for other people that we love and maybe for the rest of their lives too. 

It's an uncomfortable topic, and I think that's why we often try to minimize it for ourselves. I can just get over this, or you should get over this. We start using that language. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. If it's inherently something that is too much for our systems, then of course, it makes sense that we'd be like, "Well, I'd rather not talk about that. I'd rather not address it." Push it aside. Yeah, anything to add? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. I think it's grief inducing too, and that discomfort, we're having to sit with an uncomfortable feeling. 

Like Josh said, it may never be resolved this side of heaven, and that does not feel good. Even saying that, I can sense that my body's like, "Yep. Nope, I don't like that." 

Kasey Olander: 

Don't like that. 

Josh Freeman: 

It's complicated in that oftentimes, especially if you look historically for the last 40 years, we have been approaching problems as I need to understand it, I need to intellectualize it. If I can understand it in my mind, then I can have power over it. 

This is something that's complicated in that it does affect our mind, our will and our emotions. It also affects our body, and there's a lot of things that make us uncomfortable with any one or multiple of all of those things. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yes. That's a good thought too, we're integrated human beings. We're not just souls or just bodies. But the fact that we could be so affected by the world that we live in can also be alarming. 

And potentially discouraging for people if we're not like, "Okay, I'm just going to solve this easy-peasy, three-step problem, and then we'll be on the other side of it." 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

It may not happen that way. 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. 

Josh Freeman: 

A little cheekily, I guess, a lot of us want to assume that the rules don't apply to us, which we want to think that we're special, we're unique. I might be able to help you with this, but obviously I'm not going to experience it the same way. 

Then when we do experience it, our self-concept, our understanding, or maybe even our value gets messed up with this too. It hits all of those nerves for us. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. When in reality, it's part of being human as opposed to if trauma affects everyone, it's not just a particularly weak subset of the population or anything like that. It is a universal reality that all of us are living with and walking through. 

Yeah. As far as what trauma might look like, and we talked about how it can be caused by a number of different things, depending on the person, the situation, everyone's different. But are there certain categories of trauma? 

Are we about to talk about the five types of trauma, then we can just understand them and then organize them easily? Or how are there ways to categorize trauma? 

Andi Thacker: 

Well, that's part of the complicated nature of it, is there's not one set, universal understanding of there's these five types. Different authors and researchers have put forth different categories. 

Some broad brushstrokes would be chronic versus acute, big T versus little T, which we referenced in the last podcast, complex versus not complex. Those are broad brushstrokes. 

But again, it's complicated because we don't have this really cut and dry set, "You fall right in this category here." 

Kasey Olander: 

That's some of the difficulty and nuances that we've been addressing. Not only is it difficult maybe emotionally for us to talk about, it also is hard to quantify. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah. Making that even more complicated is the fact that it is subjective. Two people in the same experience, might experience it very differently. The repercussions might be one person might experience it as very traumatic and experience PTSD symptoms. 

Another person might be able to assimilate the experience that happened to them, and they will not experience it as traumatic or experience PTSD symptoms. It is very subjective, and it also is more added to that complexity, is the fact that the logic gets thrown out the window sometimes. 

Somebody might perceive a threat that might not even be there, and they experience it as traumatic. Then somebody goes, "Well, that didn't even happen. That wasn't even a threat." It's like but the perceived threat, the subjective experience, makes it difficult to make it a one size fits all. That's why it's personalized. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Andi, you talked about things, for example, like acute versus chronic trauma. Can you tease that out a little bit? What are the differences? What do those terms mean? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. Acute is short-lived, maybe one event, whereas chronic is an ongoing type of traumatic experience. Chronic might be microaggressions or living with food insecurity. Things that are not easily resolved. 

It could be caring for an aging parent. There's so many things that don't ever get resolved this side of heaven. Acute may be like a natural disaster. Yeah. Would you add to that, Josh? 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah. Acute could be something like even just a traumatic pregnancy or traumatic delivery, right? 

Something that lots of people experience, but it is experienced that time and then it has long-reaching effects. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Are there particular subsets of the population that might be a little more prone to experience one or the other, or is it just dependent on the timeframe? 

Andi Thacker: 

I think it's really dependent upon the timeframe. Also, like Josh said, it's subjective. We all carry different resources within our bodies. Also within, we have different resources monetarily that impact how we can deal with things. Depending upon the resources that we have at our disposal, that can really impact who is more susceptible. 

A lot of times, kids or anyone who doesn't have as much agency or choice, is more at risk because they don't have the power inherent to escape, to change the circumstances. My 6-year-old is far more at risk than I am, because he can't get in his car and flee. He can't go to the bank and get something because he doesn't have a checking account. 

He is potentially more of a greater risk. He also hasn't had as much time to live to grow his internal resources. Ideally, I should have more resources than he does psycho, socially and emotionally at my disposal. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah. I would say that along with that, he doesn't have as much autonomy or agency, and he's a lot more vulnerable. I would add though that, especially given the person that might be listening to this. There are vocations that are innately more risk presenting, such as working as a firefighter, a police officer, that we think, "Oh, that person is going to be both under the chronic stressors that can produce trauma." 

Such as, "I don't know when I'm going to get called out to a really hard call." Or they also have a higher probability of a single or acute aspect of trauma, where something might happen that they go, "Oh, this is life altering. I understand that tonight my life is different and I have a new perspective from here on out." But in addition to those that we would normally think of. 

The police officers, the firefighters, the military, I think the helping profession is much more at risk of experiencing trauma. That's because we're working with people who are more vulnerable. Our prevalence for vicarious trauma or experiencing my trauma through somebody else, is much greater as well. People that work, youth workers at churches, people that work in schools, but then also pastors and ministry leaders, much higher risk. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Yeah, so in addition to the acute and chronic trauma there also, you mentioned vicarious trauma. 

Are the symptoms of these different kinds, might they all look similar, or are there some distinctions that you would identify? 

Josh Freeman: 

I think by and large, they look very similar. Yeah. I think when we're looking at trauma symptoms, you have to start getting much more in the weeds to start separating what some of this looks like. But I would say the acute would be more like the PTSD experiences, so that hyperarousal or the hypervigilant. 

The constant threat that I'm experiencing where I could jump into a different state of mind, versus the chronic where I've developed a mindset that I've incorporated more into my working life. That might be a little bit harder to assess in myself or see in other people. 

I might even see them as strengths in other people, because they were effective coping strategies when I was going through my chronic trauma. 

Kasey Olander: 

Sure, yeah. Anything to add to that? 

Andi Thacker: 

I think that's great. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. How are these things best addressed? Do we address them differently? If, for example, vicarious trauma, if you're hearing from somebody else. 

Do we address that differently than something that you just experienced today? For example, like a car accident or something like that? Go ahead, Josh. 

Josh Freeman: 

Do we experience, do we address it differently in ourselves? I don't think we experience it very differently in ourselves. I think the goal would be for me to be a healthy, congruent person that's able to incorporate into my nervous system, my body as well as my mind and my emotions, what I experienced. 

For me to have community that I can process that with, so that this thing that I experienced doesn't get locked in an unhealthy pattern. Whether that means in a session that I have with a client or a supervision I have with a counselor where I'm experiencing things from their story that I'm experiencing. 

Or if I experience a car wreck on my drive home, I'm wanting to close the loop on the whole experience for me either way. 

Kasey Olander: 

To give it some resolution and make sure you relegate it to the past. Is that what you mean by close the loop? 

Josh Freeman: 

Not relegate it to the past necessarily, but where this arousal that happens, my nervous system goes crazy. That I incorporate that into my life, and I don't then try to hide it. 

I don't try to push it down. I don't try to avoid it, so that it gets locked and comes back up in an unhealthy way. 

Kasey Olander: 

When you don't expect it, maybe. Okay. What about addressing these different kinds for other people? 

Would it be a different way that you would address somebody who has acute trauma versus a chronic trauma? 

Andi Thacker: 

That all depends on the model that a clinician ascribes to. There's various, different models that talk about addressing trauma. When we're talking about the layperson who's spending time with someone that they care about, or a church worker who's ministering to someone. Their approach to addressing these things is going to stay more higher level, surface level, so to speak, of being present with them, being accepting. 

Hopefully, not adding on to that traumatic experience by disenfranchising this person, invalidating being a safe person. From a clinical viewpoint, it depends on where you start with someone. If they've done significant work already, just like Josh was saying, you want it to be an integrated part of your experience. How integrated a person is when they come into treatment, really impacts where you start with them in the healing process. 

If someone is not integrated at all and they're not very aware of their experiences physically, emotionally, you have to start there. Because part of processing trauma is you're going to get hopefully, intimately acquainted with how you experience those things, physiologically and emotionally. People that haven't ventured into that, going into their body, going into their emotions is really scary, and oftentimes dysregulating. 

Because part of the way we tend to cope when we have long chronic, when we have a history of trauma, is our body is constantly giving us information and talking to us. But if it's constantly saying, "You're unsafe, you're in danger," a lot of times we have to put some distance between us and that stimuli or that information that the body is giving, so that we can cope and we can just get through the day. 

Whatever that looks like, go to work, operate your car, care for kids, do whatever. Part of that first step clinically is to help people, first off, befriend their nervous system and know that this is a safe environment. That takes a significant amount of time, just because the minute you overwhelm the system, you're sending that person right back into fight or flight or immobilization. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. It takes being careful and gentle with the way that we address this. We can't just be like, "All right, tomorrow we'll be cured." 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah, yeah. It's not like we're going to throw you in the deep end of the pool and see if you can swim. Hopefully, you make it to the side. If you don't, we'll rescue you, but we're going to let you take on some water first. No, it's like we're going to just dip our toe in the shallow end, and then we're going to bring it back out. 

We're going to go so slowly that we acclimate to the experience, and we don't overwhelm the system and retraumatize the person. I think a lot of times that's something that can happen is, like Josh said, we tend to intellectualize things. We think we can think our way or logic our way out of our pain, and we just want to get through it. That actually is way more damaging than helpful. 

Kasey Olander: 

I wonder too, if that's part of why we don't really have this eagerness to address trauma just in general, is because it takes so much time? 

A lot of times, we're used to what is instant, what is immediate. Instead of being willing to enter into this however long process, because it could be an indefinite amount of time. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah. It really demands a flexibility. It demands me changing. Whether I'm working on this in myself or working with this with somebody else, or just somebody else experienced it that's close to me, it demands that I change to some extent. That requires a humility and openness, a curiosity, these types of character qualities that not everybody has or have practiced a lot. But oftentimes, we want the solution to be quick and simple, like you're saying, or painless. 

Most of the time, that means somebody else needs to change so I can stay the same. When we start talking about trauma or when we start experiencing it face-to-face with a person in our small group, our children, our parents. We start recognizing that our world has to expand in how we think about things, that we're very resilient, but we're also susceptible. Yeah, it demands that we adjust and change. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. How might somebody take those initial steps to cultivating those qualities that you're talking about, the humility and things like that? 

Josh Freeman: 

Well, listening to this podcast would be one of those, by expanding some of our understanding. But what Andi was talking about in the first steps of working with trauma, is identifying it, creating safety and stability. That can be a really long phase in the trauma journey and so that requires evaluating it. 

That requires making sure that I'm not continuing to be in an unsafe place that's keeping my brain in this fight, flight or freeze mode. Cultivating a safe place with some safe people relationship is almost always a part of that. I would say usually that's safety is with a counselor experienced almost first and foremost, is the first time that they're experiencing a true, safe and empathetic experience. 

But it can be with other people, but that's a big part of the first steps. If somebody has already been doing work on understanding themselves, or they've been doing work on accepting themselves, their work on accepting that they have value, they are starting at a different place. Maybe they're not putting their toe in the water, they're putting their foot in the water and then pulling it back. 

But those would be parts of that. Then let's say I'm talking about somebody who's experiencing a person who's experienced trauma not my own. Then in order to garner more of that flexibility or curiosity, the big part on that is not oversimplifying a complex problem so that I can understand it, or so that I can have a soundbite or a TikTok, or a, "Here's what you need to do so that I can feel better about myself." 

I would say continuing that thought is, "I need to be comfortable with discomfort, both mine and somebody else's." 

Kasey Olander: 

Okay. Yeah. Anything to add to that first steps people can take? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. I think that's huge, that piece of being comfortable with the discomfort starts with you. Brene Brown talks about how when we're going to empathize with someone, it's challenging because it forces us to get in touch with the feeling that they're experiencing within ourselves. If I'm going to be an empathic listener, that requires that humility because I have to touch that pain in myself. 

If I'm not willing to do that, then that's going to interfere with my ability to be a safe landing spot for someone. As a professional, part of the reason we don't work with family and friends, is so we can create some of that professional distance. It's harder at times to be an empathic, understanding person with a good friend or a family member because their life intimately impacts my life. 

If I'm listening to their struggle with an illness, it's impacting them and I'm sad for them, but I'm also sad for myself because their illness impacts my life. If it's someone who I don't have a relationship with outside of the professional dynamic, then I can be a little more removed and get in touch with that in an abstract way. 

But that's a huge piece of humility because I have to stand in that place of, "I'm finite. Any of this could happen to me at any time, and I'm vulnerable," and that's hard. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. We don't like that aspect of our humanity having limits and having things that are out of our control. I want to, I think, nuance a couple of things. 

We've used the term complex to refer to just the fact that trauma is complicated, and it's nuanced and it's layered. 

But I think you also alluded to complex trauma maybe as a category. Andi, could you describe the different ways that we're using that term? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. There's the nuance and the complexity that it's not cut and dry and everybody has a different experience and it's subjective, but there's also complex trauma where someone might experience trauma that continues over a number of years. 

It includes multiple facets of different areas in which they are impacted. It could be complex from the perspective that they don't have as many resources to be able to address the complexity of the situation. 

Kasey Olander: 

Is that, would you say, a type of chronic trauma or is it distinct from chronic? 

Josh Freeman: 

It really depends on who you're-. 

Andi Thacker: 

Who you're reading. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah, who you're reading. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. 

Josh Freeman: 

Some authors will distinguish complex as having a long-term, but also it would be connected with somebody who would be younger and it would be affecting their development. Complex trauma would be affecting development. 

But a lot of times when people are talking about complex trauma, it's exactly that. It's affecting all of these different areas at the same time. People use complex trauma often to point to more of the chronic but severe aspects. 

Kasey Olander: 

Because it's far-reaching. 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah, perfect. Then adding in developmental trauma, which some people will use that term to talk about trauma that happens during the early years of formation. 

Technically, development never stops because the brain is always plastic and changing or potentially changing to some extent. 

Josh Freeman: 

For some people. 

Andi Thacker: 

For some people, yes, with the right circumstances and the willingness. But early in life, we know that the brain is still going to continue to form and develop up until like 25 or 30 years old. Trauma that happens during those formative years, is going to have a different effect potentially than other trauma. Because it shapes how that brain forms, it shapes how a person views the world that they live in. 

It's not to say that you couldn't have a life-altering viewpoint of the world later in life. It really impacts attachment, which is how we anticipate relationships going for the rest of our lives. Those form early in life, so that can be a little bit more tricky to work with. It can have more longstanding repercussions because of when it occurs during the lifespan. 

Kasey Olander: 

At the risk of oversimplifying, you're saying that developmental trauma is really significant for people potentially because they're shaping how they might view the world for the rest of their lives. 

If something happens with a caregiver or whatever, they're like, "Oh, all adults must be like this." When in reality, maybe an adult who experiences a similar thing, would already have the resources to realize, "Okay, because this one person is this way, it doesn't mean everyone is this way." 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. 

Josh Freeman: 

Or they might be saying, "I deserve this," whereas an adult, I might not say, "I deserved that." But as a child, that might be the first message that I experience, "I must deserve this." 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. They have a mistaken view. 

Josh Freeman: 

Then that gets carried on forever. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Andi Thacker: 

Well, and some of why someone might say that, is because God has uniquely situated us within the context of relationships, we have to have relationships to survive. That's not even just thriving, like survive without significant relationships and the care you need from those. In the worst case scenario, children have failure to thrive and they die. 

How we, because God put us under the care of other people, and because we are the only species that takes this long to be independent. We are very much at the mercy of how we experience those main caregivers. That we need, in some ways, to believe that the people that are taking care of us, love us and have our good at heart. 

A lot of times, it's not uncommon for people who have experienced developmental trauma, to take on the blame or to think it must be internally about me, as opposed to about my caregiver. Like Josh said, as an adult, I can have a bad experience with someone and think, "Wow, that was not cool. I did not like how they treated me. That really hurt. That wasn't okay. There is something not okay with them." 

We need to believe that our parents, our caregivers, are going to protect us. When they don't, we tend to turn that self-talk inward to blame ourselves more so than others, because we need to protect their image in our minds. 

Kasey Olander: 

That's fascinating. 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah. Not unlike how we image spiritual leaders throughout the lifespan too. 

Kasey Olander: 

You want to unpack that a little more? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yes. Well, there's a special significance that, and it may not be only spiritual leaders, but with spiritual leaders, we ascribe authority. We anticipate that they will be safe and they have a lot of power in our lives. 

When they don't live out how we need them to be and how we anticipate them being, because they probably have their own trauma that's unresolved, they can leave a significant, negative impact that can be very traumatizing, that is different than maybe other folks could have in our lives. 

Kasey Olander: 

Because it's a unique position that people have, and I mean a really significant role to steward. 

Josh Freeman: 

But it also is connected to our identity. This is the person that we have as the face of what I'm believing about this community, is maybe even a voice piece for some of the things that I identify with. 

When things start happening to me from this person, or when I find out that this person has done things to other people, that can affect and negatively impact my own identity. It can be like when Andi was talking about this for a child, it can be this, "My world is not what I thought my world was." 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. A sense of betrayal, even if it wasn't directly something against you, but the idea that, "Oh, this person wasn't doing what I thought they were doing." 

Yeah. What are y'all's, I guess, advice for how to address people in that situation? Is there a change in the way that we should view spiritual authority, or is it just a matter of as things come up addressing them that way? 

Josh Freeman: 

Well, I think if we oversimplify and we think that trauma is something that you just get over or it's relegated to the past, it starts changing the way we think or the standard that we hold other people to. Recognizing that most likely people that are in places of authority or power or have quite a bit of lived experience, they have experienced their own things. Not thinking that they've somehow missed it or that everybody's operating out of a healthy, congruent personhood. 

Part of it should be us not putting people up on a pedestal or thinking that if somebody has the right theology, they're not going to experience some type of trauma. Then there is still an aspect of, depending on what we're talking about, there's an aspect of I'm going to be gracious and still choose to engage in relationship with this person. Then there are also the aspect of, depending on the circumstances, this person might be very dangerous for me to engage with and continue a relationship with. 

It's going to depend a lot on the circumstances, the person and my own ability to relate with other people. 

Andi Thacker: 

I think that's a great jumping off point too to self-reflect, because many people who may listen to this podcast or who are part of our community, are people of influence into other people's lives. 

To ask that question, "Where are my blind spots? Where is there woundedness that may not have been my fault, but it is my responsibility to deal with it?" And to be humble in that way and to maybe ask some really uncomfortable, hard questions of yourself. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. What are other ways that you would encourage people to reflect as they are listening and processing all this? 

Andi Thacker: 

I think part of it is to reflect on in a kind way to yourself, because that whole piece, I think there is a piece that no matter what community you're a part of, there is a certain aspect of a stigma that we tend to other people in a way who have experienced trauma of, "Oh well, if you're strong enough, then you wouldn't have that response, or you would've been able to withstand that." 

To really know that it's not about strength, it's not about goodness or virtue, it's a part of living in a broken world. To be safe enough in yourself where you can acknowledge that I've had some woundedness, and it's okay to validate that. I believe wholeheartedly, we can't give away that which we don't possess. 

If I have a hard time validating my own experiences and trauma, it's going to be hard for me to do that for someone else. 

Kasey Olander: 

Sure. Yeah. Anything to add to that, Josh? 

Josh Freeman: 

I think the emphasis on self is a great place to go on that, and that is recognizing that some of my knee-jerk responses to hearing news of a particular person, might be something that's been in me for a while that I haven't been addressing. I might have an exaggerated response. 

Or it might be a response that I don't fully understand, or it might be different than other people's responses that I've been interacting with, or it might be in my circle or my community. That could be a neon sign saying, "Hey, this doesn't just have to be about this other person. This is rubbing up on some of my stuff." 

Kasey Olander: 

Self, not in a selfish way like focusing only on myself, but in a sense of stewardship that in whatever roles I happen to have, whatever capacities, whatever tasks are at my disposal, then it's my job to do it to the best of my ability, to reflect on who I am, how God has made me. Yeah, the things that have happened, and how best to address them. 

Because like you said, while it may not be someone's fault, it is still the responsibility. Yeah. What are y'all's, I guess, encouragement to people for how to identify a trauma? I know we've talked about a number of different types of trauma, a number of different ways that it might play out. 

But if somebody's looking for the first time trying to do this introspection, how would you help them identify trauma? 

Josh Freeman: 

I think some of the key things that pop up in our body, is going to be awareness or my heart starts beating. I might start getting sweaty or my hands might start getting cold on something. It could be a memory that pops up routinely. Growing up, I got in this car accident in Atlanta. 

Going up 400, I got in this pretty big car accident as a 17-year-old. I go back, I still have family in Atlanta. I will be even in an Uber with somebody else driving from the airport up to my parents' house. All of a sudden I'll be like, "Wait, what's going on?" 

I'm like, "Oh, I'm coming up on the stretch of highway where I got in an accident." My body's telling me-. 

Kasey Olander: 

Here's this thing. 

Josh Freeman: 

Right, here's this thing. I'm like, "What is going on? Oh yeah, that's that." Then it happens here in Dallas when I experience a skid on the road or something like that, I'm like, "Oh, this thing is still here." 

There's still this safety response that says, "This has been impactful for you before." I think looking physically, there's those types of triggers. Yeah, what would you add to that? 

Andi Thacker: 

Yeah, I think that's a great example. The body always talks first. A lot of times, that's our first neon sign, so to speak, of there's something going on because it takes a couple minutes for our conscious brain to catch up with what's going. Paying attention to what your body says, and some of that is just being aware. A lot of times, we're really disconnected from our bodies, and part of that is to borrow from Jamie Smith. 

He says, "We're not just brains on a stick, but I think sometimes we like to live like we are." Being aware of what is the sensation I feel in this moment. Peter Levine has a great book, little, tiny book called Healing Trauma. A lot of it is really befriending your body and your nervous system, in the sense of just getting used to what it feels like to feel water run across your arm. 

Because we can be so disconnected as a mode of safety, it's not a bad thing, it's really adaptive that we don't even know what that's like. But just getting used to that and getting used to this is what my body says when I'm interacting with a skid. Also, too sometimes, our brains don't consciously remember things, but even seasons. Seasonally, things really impact us, especially depending upon the time of year. 

If there's been a significant event that was traumatic that happened during the fall, as you start to venture into the fall, or faux fall what we have here, summer 2.0, your body may start to you may not be sleeping as well. You may have changes in your eating patterns. You notice that maybe you just have a little low-grade depression in the sense of it's not horrible. I can still get through the day, but I just don't feel like myself. 

Josh Freeman: 

Sleep patterns or you might be experiencing this in relationship with other people. Your response might be something that you don't intend. You might be going back and apologizing for a statement you made or the tone of your voice when you were doing something. 

Because it felt like an automatic response and not one that I was intentional with. It might even sometimes feel like it was out of character. All of those experiences, I would say, can be indicators that something, that a nerve inside me has been touched or brushed, and something's going on with me. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Those are really helpful examples to help people connect with how this might actually feel for somebody identifying trauma for the first time. 

What would then be the next step that you would encourage them in, besides obviously practicing this? It's not like a one-time thing. 

Andi Thacker: 

Well, I think if it's never been addressed, then part of it is to find a safe therapist who can really help you move into that space and explore what the trauma is. If it is something that you have processed through and you have addressed. This is an ongoing experience throughout the lifespan, that there are just seasons and times where you need to be extra kind to yourself. 

Looking for ways that you can put margin into your world. Sometimes this is life stage and that it's going to pass, and eventually you won't need as much margin. Then sometimes if you're dealing with, let's say, a chronic illness that's never going to be resolved, you may need to rearrange some of your values and priorities in the sense of you sleep longer, you do more. 

I have a family member who is going through cancer treatment, and she has coined herself a stay-at-home cancer patient. We laugh about it, but that is a great example of self-care through a traumatic experience. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I wish we had more time to talk through all of these different things, but would each of you have maybe one last encouragement to our listeners as we conclude our time here? 

Josh Freeman: 

My encouragement would be for the listener to grow in their own self-awareness. That oftentimes, we try to bypass the awareness and bypass our own processing of what has taken place, and jump into focusing on other people. What we're doing with that, is we're avoiding things for ourself and often causing more harm. Not thinking that this is a process that can be rushed or there are steps that can be bypassed. 

This is a long and difficult process that requires me to be aware and flexible. If I try to cut steps, I'm prolonging that for myself and for others. To not think that I can go through these steps with other people, that there are some steps for me. Like emphasizing maintaining a place of safety, maintaining a relationship that's authentic and vulnerable, maintaining stability for a person. But not going in and thinking that we're going to go process somebody else's trauma. 

Kasey Olander: 

Sure, yeah. I'm hearing you say a lot about patience and being willing to be flexible. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah. I think sometimes the biggest thing that we need, is somebody to sit with us and hold our hand. 

Or to just say, "Well, let's just go for a walk and we're not even going to talk about this. You just need somebody to be with you, and I can do that." 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Andi? 

Andi Thacker: 

I love that. I would say that this is a difficult path to walk, and healing takes time. To be really patient in that process, but also know there are ways to heal that are not going to be retraumatizing. It's not like a no pain, no gain kind of thing. 

We want to make it hurt really bad, and that means we're healing. Now, the healing process shouldn't be so overstimulating that it's retraumatizing someone. I think sometimes that fear of what am I getting myself into is really scary, but there are ways to walk this pathway into process and to heal, that will not be retraumatizing. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. There's hope for people. It's not just that you have to live with it forever. 

Josh Freeman: 

Yeah. I think if we're thinking of it in terms of like a knee replacement, I have this physical thing that has happened to my knee, and now I'm going to go through physical rehab. A lot of times what that physical therapist is doing, is telling us to go slower than we want to do. They're saying, "This is the safe way of doing this." 

Like what Andi was saying, "We're going to dip our toe in and bring it out. We're not going to start doing a whole bunch of exercises." That's the benefit of having a third party, like a professional that you're working with and who's going to walk on that slow journey with you. As opposed to oftentimes our knee-jerk reaction, which is, "Oh, you just share everything all at once." 

And then tomorrow you're going to feel better, because oftentimes tomorrow you don't feel better as a result of that. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. To use the word complex again, because of the complexity of trauma, whether you're looking at your own life, whether you're looking at other people. I think that what you're both highlighting is being patient and gracious, and still being hopeful for the fact that there can be recovery. 

Even though trauma is a universal reality of living in a broken world, and it comes from a lot of different sources. It can look a lot of different ways, but there's still hope, still hope for healing. I want to thank each of you guys for being guests today. It's been a really fascinating conversation. 

Josh Freeman: 

Thanks. 

Andi Thacker: 

Thanks. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I want to thank you guys, our listeners, for joining us today. We hope that you'll join us next time on The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture.