Situation in Israel

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. 

And not only do we discuss issues of God and culture, but we also discuss how theology is relevant to life. And our topic today is the situation in the Middle East, which is nothing short of incredibly complicated. And my guest is Joel Rosenberg, who is probably known to most of you as an author of fiction. But what we're going to be talking about is not going to be fiction. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

No. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's going to be nonfiction. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

If only. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, exactly. And runs the Joshua Fund. And you're like the guy who has his hands in all the pies. You know what I mean? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

We're trying to be a witness and a blessing to Israel and our neighbors, both from the humanitarian relief side, the strength and the church side, the educational side to the rest of the church, and a media side, because so much of the media is so hostile to Israel, and Jewish people, and Palestinians that, so there's a number of things. So we're working on multiple fronts. 

Darrell Bock: 

So talk a little bit about the Joshua Fund and what you do, because I think that'll set a context for the conversation that we're going to have. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Sure. So in 2006, my wife and I started the Joshua Fund, which the simplest way to think of it is a mutual fund. It's not literally for financial investing. It's for investing in kingdom work in Israel and the Arab Muslim world, meaning most people don't know enough about stocks to say, "Okay, I'm going to pick those 10 stocks, and those are the ones in my portfolio." Most people are more comfortable saying, "I want to have a mutual fund. Let people who are experts figure out how much of my portfolio should be in this stock, or that stock, or bonds, or whatever. I trust these people and I'm going to put my money there, and they're going to figure out the best way to invest to get the highest returns." 

And in that sense, we realize that most evangelical Christians in the United States or elsewhere, if they're going to give $25 a month or $25,000, they don't actually know mostly what's happening in Israel spiritually or much less in the Palestinian areas or in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq or Egypt, to know how to invest wisely. Their instincts, I want to help, I want to be a blessing to the local church- 

Darrell Bock: 

They don't know where to help. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... where to witness. 

Darrell Bock: 

They don't know how to help. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

But yeah, I wouldn't know the theology of, I don't even know the names of the churches or the pastors. I don't know their theology. I don't know if they use the money the way they say they're going to, if they're healthy, if other people in the land think they're healthy people. And so that's basically what our team does is go and have a lot of coffee and baklava. We joke that that's our main line item in the budget, coffee and baklava. It's not really true, although in my case it looks like it's true. But it's building relationships in Israel and the Arab world and getting to know them and saying, "Lord, where do you want us to direct these resources?" They may not be the only places to give, but that's where we were asking, "Lord, show us where and how," so that the Great Commission is fulfilled, that the local church is strengthened, and that the local church has the physical, and financial, and spiritual capacity to be the hands and feet of Jesus, including humanitarian relief, including in times of war and terror. 

So over the last almost 18 years, the Lord has brought more than $100 million through the Joshua Fund to invest in local ministries. And so the ethos is both and, that God doesn't only love Israel and the Jewish people. He clearly does and He has a unique plan, but He also loves the neighbors and He loves the enemies, and we're supposed to also. 

And so last point on that is it grieves us that too many ministries, obviously not all by any means, but many ministries who love one side are so passionate about that side that I think mostly it's inadvertent or maybe a little careless, that they either don't talk about God's heart of compassion, and love, and mercy for the others side, or they speak at times derogatorily. So if you really love Israel, it's not a fan club. It's not a college football team that you're supposed to be so in that you take shots at the other team, right? God loves both, and it's not either or. 

And so for us, that's challenging. We understand why most ministries don't try to focus on both simultaneously because the spiritual warfare and the complexity is very, very challenging. But this has put us in a place where we've built very deep, challenging but exciting relationships with Palestinian Arab pastors and their wives, Israeli Arab pastors and ministry leaders and their wives, Israeli Messianic Jewish pastors and ministry leaders. 

And then I don't get to travel as much to the neighboring countries because I am an Israeli, I am a Jew, I'm a Zionist. So that sometimes is more challenging than our teams that work on that side can bear. And that's fine. I want to help raise money and let that money flow to those folks. I don't want to make their lives more complicated by getting to know me. 

Darrell Bock: 

So just again, to give you a feel for this, I mean your involvement, and of course I know your involvement, particularly in this area through a trip I took to Egypt several years ago, you're actually in contact with leaders from around the region, and the Joshua Fund is aware in contributing to people around the region. So even though you're located in Israel, you're actually engaged with people, if I can say it this way, who surround Israel in many ways. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah. So financially and practically in terms of gospel, church growth, pastor training and encouragement, obviously prayer, humanitarian relief, there is a footprint. Israel, Palestinians and five neighboring actual sovereign countries, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt. But then in terms of the delegation work, so God has opened up doors for me not just to focus on pastors and ministry leaders on the ground, but Netanyahu as a Prime Minister, President El-Sisi as the Egyptian President, King Abdullah of Jordan, Mohammed bin Salman the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, and others. 

And at that level, that's where we brought you and other evangelical leaders to go meet with Christian leaders of those other countries as well as Muslim leaders, as well as senior government officials in a dialogue to try to advance religious freedom, advance peace. But also try to understand where are these folks coming from and how can we be true ambassadors for Jesus in every way that an ambassador for Jesus should be, both the gospel side but also as peacemakers and friends. 

Darrell Bock: 

So just for example, when I went to Egypt, it was on the occasion of the dual inauguration of both a Christian Coptic site and a Muslim mosque in the new administrative area of Egypt. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Which was an incredible experience. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

It was. 

Darrell Bock: 

To be within 10 minutes of each other basically, they were dedicated in the two different locations. It was an all day deal because it's got quite a drive through the sand to get there. And so your engagement with kind of all the parties, if I can say it that way, makes it a different kind of ministry in some ways, it seems to me. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

It is. And that is not by design. I mean the fact that the Lord has opened these crazy doors, they're crazy. They don't make any sense. I'm not a billionaire. I don't have a political movement behind me. There's not an immediate obvious reason why an Arab Muslim monarch, or crown prince, or king, or president, or prime minister would ask me either to meet with them at all, much less to come back and bring a delegation of other evangelical leaders to open up a dialogue. But that is what's happening. 

And the Joshua Fund itself has had to adjust to, is that a thing? Is that something we do or is that something that Joel does over there? And so, yes, we have embraced it as a team because what's happening now is it means from the poorest of the poor with whom we're engaging through the local believers on both sides of the Israel and the Arab world, as well at the spiritual pastor, ministry leader level in Bible colleges, seminaries, but then at the political and even monarch level, that is not a normal set of things. 

The only guidance I really have, well, Billy Graham maybe of the modern era who had the access as an evangelist, but still to sit with the Queen of England, or the king of this or whatever, because they were just so intrigued with, and you would be, why are so many people listening to you? But that's not true of me. Not that many people are listening to me. I'm glad that you are and anyone listening to this podcast. But God has created an environment where the evangelical voice is clearly important in the United States culturally, and politically, and socially, and that is intriguing Israeli and Arab Muslim leaders. And maybe they don't know anyone else to ask, and so they ask me, but God has put me in that- 

Darrell Bock: 

"You're the one guy in Israel I can ask." 

Joel Rosenberg: 

"He seems like a funny, interesting person, but sure, let's start with him." 

But the other side of it, I guess, is that it's allowing us to also talk about religious freedom issues and to engage people who don't, you don't get in the room. When Juan and I brought a delegation to meet the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, he told us that you're the first Christian leaders in 300 years that the Saud Royal Family has invited into the palace. That's not normal, obviously. But as we began to define terms, I asked the Crown Prince, I said, "I'm guessing, is this true that the term evangelical is not used much here in the Kingdom?" And he laughed and said, "No, it's obviously the epicenter of Islam. We don't talk about evangelicals much." I said, "Well, I've got an ordained pastor as part of our delegation. Could he just take a moment and explain what is an evangelical and what do we believe?" 

Now that sounds like a lovely normal sort of stage setting conversation, but that's a pastor from Albuquerque, New Mexico, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, crucified and resurrected with the future king of the center of Islam. That itself is not normal, but God is opening these doors. And so Billy Graham is, maybe it's not directly applicable to me, but I've read a lot of books about him. I've talked to a lot of people that know him and knew him, as to try to get some sense. But also, of course, the Apostle Paul, he was told through Ananias, but the Lord was saying, "You're going to be the witness for the Lord to the Gentiles, to kings and to the sons of Israel." Well, that's quite a comprehensive ministry portfolio. I wouldn't claim that. I just mean I'm trying to be a good steward with the opportunities I've had. 

And more recently, the most recently, just before this war broke out in Israel, I was invited by the number two most powerful official in the Palestinian authority, sight unseen. I didn't ask for the meeting. I wasn't even praying for the meeting. I mean, in general. But Sheikh Al Hussein invited me to go to Ramallah. I took another Jewish believer with me, and that was a two-hour meeting. And it was, I mean, there's not much we agree on, but it was fascinating for him to sit, and want to sit with two Jewish, Israeli evangelical followers of Jesus. 

You could ask a lot of questions. Books could be written, books are being written about what is happening. But I think it's all part of Matthew 24:14, that this "good news of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world to all nations, and then the end shall come." I think God wants everybody to have a friend who loves Jesus and who, have somebody in their life who's willing to answer any question they want to talk about, but has a desire to lean in and hopefully talk about the good news of Jesus and how he's changed our lives. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that sets the context for what your ministry is and kind of the background that you have. You've been in Israel now for how long? More than 10 years? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

We've been citizens for exactly 10 years actually, in March 2014. I've been traveling in and out for 37 years since I was undergraduate. And the Joshua Fund started 18 years ago. But living there, dual citizens on the ground- 

Darrell Bock: 

You were living there how long? Is it that- 

Joel Rosenberg: 

10 years. 

Darrell Bock: 

10 years as well? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Just a few months. In August, it'll be 10 years when we actually moved there. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Two sons who've served in the Israeli military. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, the other thing that I've heard, and basically I'm dealing with what I'm hearing, which sometimes I wonder if what I'm hearing is what's really real, but is that October 7th changed the region. Can you help people understand what that means? One, is it true? And then two, what that means? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Well, I think October 7th has certainly changed Israel forever, but we're still trying to figure out what exactly that means. So we can't unpack that. I think October 7th has certainly impacted the region. I think it's too early to say if it's changed the region. Let me give you one specific, Israelis who have been long interested in making peace with the Palestinians and have been supportive of various left, center, and even center right governments to make peace offers to create a two-state solution. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you're talking about Israeli governments- 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Israeli- 

Darrell Bock: 

... that represent that spectrum? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah. So Israeli Jewish citizens who have supported various types of governments over the 76 years making two-state offer solutions. Almost nobody wants to do that anymore. Almost nobody. And the reason is because they're like, "You got to be kidding me." In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, very controversial decision, pulled every soldier out, every civilian out, and gave the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinians of Gaza without a peace treaty. Just, "Listen, it's yours. You've got beachfront property on the Mediterranean, you've got natural gas, trillions of cubic feet. Go build a Palestinian paradise." And that was 2005. 

In 2006, they held their first Democratic elections and they elected Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organization. And in 2007, Hamas took over, killed every political opponent that they could find, and then began firing rockets and sending suicide bombers. And we've been dealing with this for the last 17 years. So Israelis who were against that decision by then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, say, "See?" But the center and left, that was the majority at that time, say, "Wow, we really thought, I mean, how could we make a better offer than that?" 

Darrell Bock: 

"That's the best we could do." 

Joel Rosenberg: 

"What more do you want from us? We're not occupying. You have all the makings. You have your own freedom. You vote your own elections, but if you're going to vote in a genocidal, terrorist organization and then use all your money and time to attack us, then we don't see any way forward." And that's the, I'm not talking about believers, I'm talking about the mainstream Israeli political spheres, like, "We're done." 

Darrell Bock: 

So the way I sometimes explain this is to say that there was an effort to get along and try and pursue peace. The Abrahamic Accords is a start. I mean the movement towards Israel, even going as far back as Anwar Sadat, here he made this move, look what that got him. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

But the peace held. That's one thing. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. That's right. And then you had this, for lack of a better description, the intifadas that led to the building of the walls and the trying to contain the violence. My explanation for October 7th is October 7th was viewed as the failure of a containment policy, and that the only choice you had now was to make the choice to eliminate the cause of the violence. And that that's the way Israelis see it. Is that fair? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yes, yes, that's fair. And the reason that it's fair in terms of that's how Israelis mostly see it, which is because they would say, "When we gave the land back to the Palestinians in Gaza in 2005, there were no walls. And then they started sending suicide bombers in, so then we built a wall. And so then they started firing rockets over the walls, so we built the Iron Dome system to shoot down the rocket so we wouldn't have to invade. Then they started digging tunnels to get under the wall and send terrorists, and then we had to start building ground penetrating radar and metal plates that would go down a mile or whatever. And then they still found a way to blow up our wall on a Jewish holiday, on a Sabbath, October 7th and kill 1,200 of us butchering us, putting babies in ovens, chopping people's heads off, raping women. So there's no way to stop these people. We have to invade and we have to destroy it. Not the people, but the Hamas terror organization." 

Unfortunately, the most recent poll as of December shows that 75% of Palestinians, and this is by a Palestinian pollster, it's not by an Israeli, 75% of Palestinians support enthusiastically the invasion and slaughter of Jews by Hamas on October 7th. So this is, again, reinforcing a view by Israelis. There's no living with these people. We've done, we even supported the Trump two-state solution to three years ago, whenever that was, and they still want to kill us. So this is the way almost every Israeli sees it. I'm not saying there aren't still two-state solution holdouts, but they are- 

Darrell Bock: 

Fewer and farer between? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... fewer and farther between than there ever has been. And remember, the country started by atheists, socialists, agnostic, pretty much a peacenik, almost by American standards you'd almost say like a hippie sixties, "We just love everybody and..." 

Darrell Bock: 

"We'd like to figure out a way to get along." 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah, "You have this part. We'll have that part. And that's the partition plan." The vote in the UN. November 29th, 1947, the world voted and said, "The Jews will get some of the land, but the Arabs get most of the land starting with Transjordan," which was determined before '47, and then pretty much the rest. Jews were not happy with that division, but they're like, "All right, at least we get a land." And it's sanctified. It's legitimized by the international law. 

Darrell Bock: 

We got recognition law. We got recognition. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah, we're now a real country. What happened? Seven Arab countries invaded the day after we announced independence on May 14th, 1948 and try to kill us in the cradle. But even still, it's taken 75, 76 years to pretty much kill off the peace movement in Israel because Israelis, we say hello by saying peace Shalom. We say goodbye by saying peace. I mean, it is deeply ingrained. We just want to live in peace. And thus far, there's no evidence that most Israelis see, geopolitically speaking, to have that, and with Palestinians. With Egypt, yes. With Jordan, yes. With Bahrain, yes. With United Arab Emirates, yes. With Morocco, yes. Sudan, I don't know where, that's an open question. Even the Saudis. October 6th, everybody, what was everybody talking about? "We're about to make peace with the Saudis, and if we make peace with them, the next 50 Muslim countries are coming." 

Darrell Bock: 

In fact, as I'm dealing with what I'm hearing, one of the things that I'm hearing is one of the reasons why October 7th happened was to try and block that from happening. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah. The Iranian regime, it's widely believed, was looking for a way to blow up the emerging Saudi Israeli peace deal. And the only way they thought they could do it was create an environment in which Israel has to invade Gaza and start killing people, mostly terrorists. But you put civilians in their way, and if Israelis kill them too, then from the Iranian regime perspective and the Hamas leadership perspective, the more Palestinians that die, the better. That's the way they see it, because it'll make the world turn on Israel. And that's exactly what has happened. 

And so as a follower of Jesus Christ and an Israeli, you think, okay, Lord, where is this going? We know that ultimately Jesus is the only answer. But don't you want to give us a few ideas of sub Second Coming pre Second Coming, how do we show compassion to Palestinians who have been terribly misgoverned, have lived under a terrorist state in Gaza, and have lived under corruption in the Palestinian authority in what we would say biblically is Judea and Samaria, but they call it the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority? 89%, 89%, nine out of 10 Palestinians in the West Bank want the Palestinian authority, President Mahmoud Abbas, to go today, tomorrow. Why? Because they believe he's corrupt and ineffective. And by the way, Mahmoud Abbas is serving the 18th year of his four-year term. And so Palestinians can't stand him and want him to go. 

This is the world that I think many evangelicals who love Israel have really got to process how painful it is to be a Palestinian, how lonely it is. Not every Palestinian supported blowing up airliners, or kindergartens, or cafes but- 

Darrell Bock: 

That's an allusion to the intifadas, right? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah, over all these years. But when you see that 75% of Palestinians currently enthusiastically support the savage butchery, the genocide of attack on October 7th by Hamas. Then you think, well, this is a super majority, so how do you love and show compassion? That is our mandate. Set aside Israeli foreign policy set aside, American foreign policy. Foreign policy is the wrong term, but what's the foreign policy of the church towards loving and helping? What's the right way to help Palestinians who are truly sheep without shepherds or the shepherds are evil and are eating the sheep? 

I mean, right out of Ezekiel 33, something like that, 34, it's pretty bad. And so you think most people, most Christians who care about this are still stymied, not everybody, obviously, some people have very strong opinions. "No, no, no. The two-state solution is right, and it's right right now." But even in the fairest conversation, I think you'd have to ask, "Well, so you've got two parts to what would be the state, Gaza and the West Bank." Gaza has been controlled by terrorists. They voted for terrorists, and now you could say, "Well, they haven't voted for 17 years." True. And actually it's interesting, if you look at that polling that I mentioned from December, only 52% of Gazans support what Hamas did, 52%. Where it's 82% in the West Bank, 30 points higher in the West Bank where it didn't happen and Israel didn't invade. But if you combine that, you still have 75%. So Gazans and Palestinians, it's still a slight majority, but it's a majority. 

So you think, well, that's a culture. You can't just build a society, and build nice homes, and cul-de-sacs, and beachfront hotels, and an airport and a port and say, "Well have an awesome time. You're going to have a great life." Because if the culture says, "We hate Israel and we're going to do everything we can to destroy you and kill you," it's all going to grow right back. And if you've got the West Bank, which would be the biggest amount of territory and the largest population of Palestinians, if you're talking about 85% of Palestinians, according to the Palestinian most respected pollster, hates Israel so much that they support enthusiastically October 7th, then Israel thinks there's literally, we cannot let a state be created because they'll do unto us what the people of Gaza just did- 

Darrell Bock: 

They'll continue to do what they've been doing and even worse. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

And it leaves Christians who really care about loving both, again in a very difficult situation, unless you're willing to throw out all the facts and stick with a dogma that says, "Well, it just seems fair." Well, it seemed fair in 1947. It just has never worked. And you could say, "Well, I think it will this time." Maybe, but there has to be a culture change because you're talking about people who are supporting cutting off heads and burning people live in their homes. No Jew is going to let that happen. 

Darrell Bock: 

So how do you deal with this? Which is that, again, I'm dealing with what I hear. Some of it's from this group that I participate in that has a mixture of people and mixture of perspectives in it. And then the observation goes something like this, to the extent that Israel prosecutes its effort to eliminate Hamas and to do so with a singularity of focus, I'm trying to figure out how to describe this in as neutral way as possible, which is even hard to do. How does that not build up the animosity of the Palestinians to such a way that your 85% becomes more deeply ingrained as opposed to being softened? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Right. Well, the honest answer is I don't know. I don't think that America's first thought after 9/11 was how do we make the Afghan people love us? The first question was how do we destroy the very movement that's trying to do this and will do it again, and again, and again if we let them? It didn't mean we shouldn't care about what Afghanis thought. And over time, we tried to figure out how to help them build a democratic society, right? 

Unfortunately, the democratic society that the United States under President George W. Bush helped try to create in Gaza led to the election of a genocidal terrorist organization. So democracy is not the silver bullet answer. We as Americans think that that's a great thing. But when you're just talking about making a vote and you don't have a civil society under which people can debate vigorously, and have open free conversation and assembly, then the only people that have actually organized in an environment like Gaza were radical Islamists in the mosques. So you give them a chance to vote, well, they're going to vote and they're going to have one vote, and that's it. You'll never vote again. 

So the answer is, I don't know, but let me offer a possibility. I think there's two possibilities for Gaza. Let's set aside for a moment, the West Bank, just for the moment, but let's just look at Gaza. Everybody's saying, including the President of the United States, "Israel needs a post-war plan." Okay, the first question is, what does the culture of Gaza look like? I've been in Gaza since this war started. I can tell you the facts on the ground, apocalyptic devastation as far as the eye can see. I've never seen anything like this. And I've been to Iraq four times. I've been to Afghanistan. I'm not saying there weren't places that looked like this, but oh my gosh, it's apocalyptic terror. 

So the question is about the culture. After Israel defeats Hamas is the culture turbocharged, radicalized? "See what you've done to us. Now you're really going to get it once we get off our and get the weapons to come after you again." That really could happen. But there is another possibility. Japan, after the bomb, two of them, and the victory in World War II. Germany, not after World War I, but after World War II and the utter devastation. Both societies felt completely defeated. And having come to the conclusion we are defeated, Germans didn't feel that way, they felt cheated, they felt betrayed. They felt a lot of emotions, but defeat was not one of them after World War I. After World War II, "We're done." 

Darrell Bock: 

No doubt. Yeah. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

And so what created were peaceful societies that were grateful for the Americans who wanted to help them try to rebuild and become healthy, normal, 21st century nations. 

There's a scholar, a Middle East scholar that I like and respect. I know him personally. Daniel Pipes, he's based out of Philadelphia. He runs something called the Israel Victory Project. And his case is until the Palestinians feel defeated and then are ready to build a sort of Japanese, German-esque new life, that this is never going to change. I've been hesitant to embrace that thought because it feels to war against my sense of Christian compassion, and like, okay, I don't want to make a person feel utterly vanquished. I think we have to ask ourselves compared to what? And Gaza is a different situation. 

So the same thing spiritually. I'll just add to one other point. What does Gaza look like spiritually after this is all over her? Has this war, as horrific, messy, brutal, painful as it's been, and it is one of the worst in Israel's modern history, is the back of radical Islam or Islam generally broken? And people are like, "I'm out." This is what radical Islam brings, devastation and misery. "I believe in God, but it can't be that God." And they start scanning the dial as it were to and flood the zone of Gaza with 10,000 Arab Christian missionaries preaching the gospel, teaching the word, planting churches. Could that work? I pray, but I don't know. 

And I'll tell you why, Darrell, just to, I don't want to go on and on here. These are very complex. It's hard to give sound bite answers. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I got it. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

This comes right out of Genesis 12. The people of Gaza, being perfectly frank and painfully candid, have been cursing Israel for 76 years. There is a consequence. Now, we as Christians aren't supposed to be rejoicing in judgment. I believe this is a judgment. Could the judgment come within mercy after it and a new birth? It could, and I would love that it too. But right now, I think there is a price to cursing, not just disagreeing with Israel. But if they had built the ideal Palestinian paradise that they could have had in 25, 2005, '06, '07, they would now be the model for the West Bank and say, "Listen, brothers and sisters over there, you don't have to live in poverty. We just showed how you could do it differently. And we learned from Dubai, we learned from Singapore, we learned from Bahrain and other countries. Do it our way." 

But instead the west bankers are looking at Gaza saying, "That's the model." You're like, "What? What model?" Killing Jews- 

Darrell Bock: 

Defiance. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... savagely. Okay, well, where do you go from there? It's painful. 

Darrell Bock: 

My way of saying this is to say it's hard to negotiate at the peace table when you have one party that isn't interested in peace. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Well, their definition though would be peace without Israel- 

Darrell Bock: 

That's my point. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... instead of peace next to Israel. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's my point. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Exactly, right. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's precisely my point. In other words, when the whole point of you shouldn't be at this table, in fact, we would like to have you not be at this table, what do you negotiate? I mean, so that's hard. All of this to say, in the midst of it however, that the amount of devastation that we've been seeing and which the world sees has put Israel in a very difficult place in terms of global, I'm going to use a PR term which is crass, but in terms of global branding. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

And to me, that is a challenge that Israel faces because the less sympathy she has globally, the more she has to go it alone. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Look, this is the evil genius of the Iranian regime. They were looking at their toolbox and thinking, what tools can we use to derail this rising brand where Israel actually is welcomed in the region and is making peace with everybody? And pretty soon it's going to be making peace with the rulers of Mecca and Medina. If that happens and everybody's celebrating, Israel's a technology, and economy, and the stock market, and they're making peace with everybody, and even Bibi is a peacemaker. That was Iran's worst case scenario. 

I actually wrote a novel about this, it was called The Jerusalem Assassin, several years ago, in which the Saudis sent a back channel message to the U.S. Administration saying, "We're ready to make peace, but we need you to sort of prod us into it. We want to make peace with Israel. So could you call, Mr. President, American president, could you call sort of a peace summit in Jerusalem? And we'll reluctantly attend, but we're ready." 

But what happens, I won't give the whole novel away, but in The Jerusalem Assassin, it's Iran and Iran's proxies that come out of the woodwork to try literally, figuratively, and in every other way blow up the peace process. Because Israel making peace with the Saudis is the ultimate mother of all peace deals because it gives the good housekeeping seal to any other Arab or Muslim society to go, "Look, you don't have to agree with Israel on everything. You can still care for the Palestinians and want a good life for them, but we're playing ball with Israel now. And if Saudis are doing it, let's do it too." And that's what Iran feared so much. And the evil geniuses, we are now... 

The President of the United States, well it wasn't the president, it was Senator Chuck Schumer the other day saying, "Israel's becoming a pariah." That's from the highest-ranking Jewish elected official in the history of the United States. I don't agree with him, but I understand what he's saying. He's calling for regime change, by the way, in Israel rather than Iran, or Russia, or China. But when you have a Senate Majority Leader who's Jewish saying that the Prime Minister of Israel, democratically elected, is creating a pariah state, Iran is, I don't know if the Ayatollah can do cartwheels at this age, but inside he's doing cartwheels. President Biden and Senator Schumer are giving an awful lot of language that helps the case that Israel under Netanyahu, which means basically Israel, is horrible and nobody should really be doing business with us. That's my country. That's where I live. 

I know that prophetically, we're heading towards a time where no country will stand with Israel, right? When we get to Ezekiel 38, 39 and the war of Gog and Magog, no country comes to Israel's rescue. And of course we see that in Zechariah. We see it in Revelation. There's going to be a point which nobody, nobody wants to stand with Israel. We're not there yet, but we're seeing tensions in Washington over should we, how do we stand with Israel? 

And right now, the United States veto at the UN Security Council is the only thing that's keeping the rest of the world from condemning us and beginning to put sanctions on us. And so it's a very dangerous moment for Israel internationally. 

And this last point on this, which is when it's difficult in terms of media, and Israel's on trial for genocide at the World Court, and the UN is condemning us all the time, it makes many evangelicals or Christians of other theological persuasions start struggling. "Do I want to even be identified with these people? Why should I stick out my neck in my conversations with my friends, or my family, or at work? I don't want to defend Israel, I can't defend..." And that starts to isolate Israel and Jewish people even more, which yes, is prophetic, but isn't something that we as evangelical should be- 

Darrell Bock: 

Promoting. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... promoting or excited about. So how do you stand with your friend? Even if you think, wow, Israel's right to try to destroy Hamas, but they're going about it all the wrong ways. That's a fair argument. Saying that Israel is genocidal is not a fair argument. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right, right. I actually think that distinction's important. That asking the question, the goal makes sense because you have someone who's trying to eliminate your presence, and it's the goal of a government to protect its people. But the challenge is how do you actually execute that goal in a way that doesn't play into the hands of the people who are trying to isolate you? Because that's what they're trying to do with this. And so some people suggest that part of the pushing that you're getting from the United States is to try and make an effort to persuade Israel that we share your goal, but the way you're executing it is creating problems that you actually don't need to have. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Yeah. And look, I think that's a fair argument, but there is a question that is the pushback, which is how would we do it differently? It's not clear. I have not heard a single argument from the President, National Security Advisor, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, how Israel would be doing it differently. I think, again, I go back to the evil genius of the Iranian regime is that they realize once you've created the entire Gaza Strip into a military state with 300 miles of terror tunnels underneath where all the weapons are held, and that every single house has weapons, every single mosque, every single school, every single medical clinic, whatever, they all have weapons and they all have terrorists in them. Or maybe not terrorists in every one, but the terrorists can move from one apartment to the other, and there's more weapons to use. That's what is the situation. Once you've built that, Israel starts moving in and they literally have to deal with every single part. 

Darrell Bock: 

How can they be selective? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

And when you created a human shield strategy in which Hamas surround, where do they fire the missiles from? Kindergartens filled with children. So we have to tell the children to leave, but then the Hamas people sometimes don't let them leave. And then we have to think, all right, well, we're going to have to send ground forces in, and then we take over an apartment building next to the kindergarten, but that's all booby trapped. And so all of our soldiers are dying up and down in that building. So they decide, leave the building and just bomb the building. And then that creates television images on NBC, CBS, ABC, BBC and of course, Al Jazeera see the Israelis are bombing indiscriminately. 

So the evil genius is that the Iranian regime has strategically created a way to checkmate us by doing our legitimate right of self-defense. Because self-defense when the entire Gaza Strip is militarized, looks really bad. And I actually don't know. I'm looking, I'm waiting to hear an argument of, well, how would we be doing it differently? And I haven't seen it. I'm open to that idea, I'm sympathetic to the idea. But I've never heard somebody who charges me with that or charges Israel with that make the case for, tell us what are those options. 

Darrell Bock: 

Let me add one other element to this- 

Joel Rosenberg: 

Please. 

Darrell Bock: 

... that I think is important, and that is the position of Hamas about the way Palestinians are utilized, and I'm going to use that phrase purposefully, is that they turn those civilians who are lost into martyrs and do so consciously. 

There was a report run on CNN about six weeks into the war, which I sent to some of my colleagues, in which they interviewed Hamas people who were talking about the level of civilian casualties. And basically what the Hamas leader was saying was, "Well, these are people who are sacrificing and engaged in martyrdom for the cause that we are espousing." So they have it both ways. Okay? On the one hand, they say, "Isn't it terrible that all these civilians are losing their lives?" But on the second hand, "If they lose their lives, they're martyrs and we're willing-" 

Joel Rosenberg: 

"Isn't it wonderful?" 

Darrell Bock: 

... "we're willing to honor their sacrifice for the cause." That's a tails, I win, heads, you lose operation. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

No, that's exactly the situation we're in. And it's prophetic, whether it's in our generation that we're going to get to the point where the entire world turns against us. I hope not. But the first question is, is the church going to turn against Israel and the Jewish people who have a legitimate need, much less right, to self-defense? Keep giving and offering deals of every possible stripe to the Palestinians who keep rejecting them and then commit genocide. And then you ask them, "Do you support what they're doing?" "Absolutely." Well then show me the pathway to a two-state solution, a pathway to peace short of the millennial kingdom. I hope there is one, but so far, this is the most intractable problem on the planet. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so the level of mistrust that exists really going both ways is because of a history that is 76 plus years old because you can talk about what happened in 1948, but the grievances go back before that. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

It all goes back 100 years before that. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. Makes this, I always refer to the Middle East as the most tangled web, or sometimes I refer to it as a dual cul-de-sac in which each side is creating an environment for themselves that only keeps them going in circles. And there's no way out, at least it's hard to figure out a way out. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

And you start with the psychology of Palestinians and Israelis are both, I mean, you could use a lot of different versions, they're abused children, they're battered wives. I mean, pick your analogy. But the Israeli Jewish context comes out of the Holocaust where you can't even live, and go to the symphony, and speak German and still not be sent to Auschwitz. No matter what you do, how helpful you are in the society, what an industrialist you are, whatever, you are illegal, immoral, illegitimate, and you should be exterminated. 

But Palestinians feel similarly. And they feel like, "So what did we do? We were living here fairly quietly, and then for hundreds of years." The Palestinian people are not indigenous, but I just don't accept my Christian friends who say, "There's no such thing as a Palestinian." If you can't even let somebody self-identify, people who've lived there for several hundred years. So maybe they're not the Philistines. They took the name from the Philistines, and in Arabic, you sayPhilistine but okay, they're not Philistines, but so what? Hundreds of years. So they feel like, well, we were living here and then the Jews started buying up some of the land, but then there was a war, and then we were forced to leave. And then their narrative is real. It has lies in it, it has inflation in it, but the pain is real. I've never met a Palestinian- 

Darrell Bock: 

The displacement's pretty real. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

The displacement's real. So if your goal as a Christian is to dismiss the emotional pain that two groups of people are in, that gets worse with every generation, there's no way to show love and compassion. So you have to start with that love and compassion. Now, I don't think that love and compassion means that you throw out the scriptures and say, "Well, no, there's no such thing as God saying, 'This is a land I'm giving you. You have to be kind to your neighbors. You have to love your neighbors.'" But yes, there is... 

So I don't accept that for me to show love to my Palestinian Christian friends, I have to throw out the Bible. That's never going to happen. But I also don't believe that I should become a hyper Zionist who believes that, dang right, it's our land and you guys have no place here, and get out. And I don't see how that's biblical, and I don't see how that's compassionate. It's not what Jesus was talking about. 

But going back to the complexity, so then how do you live? How do live with, yes, Israel has, it's not even a right. We forfeited our right when we got exiled and we never repented. God mercifully brought us back. We don't really have a divine right to be living in that land, but we have a divine calling. And the prophets told us we would go, and we're there. 

I don't excuse, I said it earlier so I want to make sure I'm being clear, especially to my Palestinian or other Christian friends who are going, "Okay, now see," but let me just say this. I did say earlier, Israel keeps offering deals, and the Palestinians have really rejected all of them except for the Oslo Accords in the early nineties. But the Oslo Accords led to suicide bombing so it's not like it worked perfectly, but it was supposed to lead to a state. But suicide bombings caused everybody who supported Oslo in Israel to go, "No, we're not, no, we're not doing that." 

I'm not saying that everyone, so when I talk to my Palestinian friends, they say, "Yeah, but each of those offers look at the offer. That was not sufficient." But I think that, so you end up in this sort of- 

Darrell Bock: 

Cul-de-sac. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... cul-de-sac, this loop of, well, if no offer is sufficient, then what are you actually asking? Show me the Palestinian offer. What's the plan that the Palestinians have ever- 

Darrell Bock: 

What will it take? 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... put on the table- 

Darrell Bock: 

What will it take for us- 

Joel Rosenberg: 

... "You give me this and we are done"? 

Darrell Bock: 

... to be able to live here 

Joel Rosenberg: 

It's never been offered because at the leader level, I can't speak for every 4 million Palestinians, but at the leader level, there is no deal except Israel leaves. Now, they don't want to say that because that puts them on the defensive internationally. But every time you make an offer or the world creates an offer, and Israel says, "We're not really fans of that, but we could probably accept something like that." 

Bill Clinton, 2000, Camp David. It takes Ehud Barak, a left-wing labor rights Prime Minister, but a general and probably the most revered since King David, and Yasser Arafat, puts them in Camp David, and they spend how many weeks there. And what's Bill Clinton's view in the end when the deal doesn't happen? Well, I'll tell you, Darrell, I'm going to tell you exactly what happened. He hated Yasser Arafat. In Bill Clinton's memoir he writes about Arafat calling him when Clinton was leaving office, and, "Oh, you're such a great president. We're so grateful." He goes, "Are you kidding?" And Clinton reamed out Yasser Arafat. And Arafat's like, "Whoa, whoa. What did I do?" "I put you in a room and Ehud Barak offered you 93% of the West Bank, and all of Gaza, and half of the Old City of Jerusalem. And you said, 'No.' You made me look like a laughing stock. You're never going to get more than that. What is wrong with you?" That's from the most progressive Democrat offering the brokerage of a deal that Israel was ready to sign. 

I wouldn't have supported that deal, but I wasn't in charge, and most Israelis would've. And Arafat said, "No." And he came back to Israel or Rameh, and he set into motion the Second Intifada and thousands of Israelis dead from suicide bombings. So Israeli is like, you got to be kidding me. You never have a plan that you can say yes to. And when we offer you the most generous plan there is, you set into motion suicide bombings. What do you want from us? That's the way Israelis feel. And I understand that feeling. 

Darrell Bock: 

I say, when I go to the Middle East and I listen to the stories, and I ended up, this is before October 7th, on both sides of the wall, when I would go, I say, "I hear the same stories. The only difference is different people are wearing the black and white hats." And they're basically the same stories. They're the claims of the same injustices, that kind of thing. Each side charging the other. And the level of, as I said before, the level of distrust is so great that finding some way to have a conversation that is positive has become terribly difficult. And when it devolves to the level that we're at now, it's very, very difficult. 

Joel Rosenberg: 

I mostly don't talk about any of this when I'm with my Palestinian Christian friends. The Joshua Fund hosts the annual Bible retreat for all the Palestinian pastors, and their wives, and some of the younger ministry leaders, and up and coming leaders. About 90 to 95% of all the Palestinian evangelical ministry leaders that there are attend this annual conference. And we don't talk about politics at all. We bring a visiting group of pastors. I'm a teacher. We teach through books of the Bible. We have worship, we have praise, we have prayer. And fellowship is verboten. It's completely forbidden by the Palestinian evangelical leadership that hosts, they're the ones organizing it and inviting us to do it. We are not talking about the conflict, not because it's not important, but it's fruitless. None of us have any influence to solve it. It just creates a division and hurt. 

You can go off and talk about it on some other weekend, but this weekend is about just being with Jesus and with each other. We have found that very healthy. You could say, "Well, isn't that avoidance?" Maybe it was priorities. We can talk about it. And believe me, people have taken me aside and, "Can we go have dinner and lunch?" I'm willing to listen to everybody, make all the cases. I said, "I can't solve this, but I can help you as a Palestinian Christian grow in your faith, and be refreshed, and feel connected." To you come in our conferences and make your case. We're not here to, we have no plan that we're trying to impose on how this should be done. 

And we're not asking you to become dispensationalists. We're not asking you to become Zionists. We're asking you to be a Palestinian Christian who loves Jesus, who comes to Europe, or the United States, or whatever. Just share your heart and show us, show the people how can we pray for you? How can we love you? Again, it doesn't solve the problem, but I do think that's the primary way forward is not to engage directly head-to-head the problem all the time, because I have never found a way out of that cul-de-sac. 

Darrell Bock: 

You can't get there without building relational trust. It's that simple. And everything that's happening challenges that ability to build that trust. And there's a history behind it that's built up, that's built up walls, and so it's a problem. 

So I want to thank you for coming in, and sharing with us, and talking about this. I really wanted our audience to understand, each individual listener, every you out there, to understand how complex this is. And there's a lot of history behind it. There are layers to it. Everywhere you turn, there's a story and a counter story, and it really is a challenge. But we're grateful for the attempt through the Joshua Fund and efforts like it to try and say to everyone, there is a way in which the uniqueness of what Jesus Christ offers is the only way out of the cul-de-sac. 

And so our hope is this has been helpful for you to hear, and we thank you for being a part of the table. We hope you'll join us again soon. If you have, want to see other episodes of The Table, it's voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast. And that will get you to the almost 600 separate shows that we've done over a little over the last decade. So we hope you'll join us again soon, and we thank you for being with us.