Fashion and Theology – Classic
In this classic episode, Kym Cook, Jacob Taylor and Robert Covolo discuss fashion and faith, focusing on how what you wear can communicate Christ in the world around you.
The Table is a weekly podcast on topics related to God, Christianity, and cultural engagement brought to you by The Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. The show features a variety of expert guests and is hosted by Dr. Darrell Bock, Bill Hendricks, Kymberli Cook, Kasey Olander, and Milyce Pipkin.
Timecodes
- 00:14
- Intro the guests, Jacob Taylor and Roert Covolo, fashion designers.
- 02:21
- What inspired your relationships between fashion and faith?
- 08:11
- How does history in Christianity help us take fashion more seriously?
- 13:10
- What do you see in Scripture regarding fashion, is it positive or negative?
- 26:36
- How is fashioning a form of communicating and creating an expression of joy?
- 33:46
- How does the way we dress help us bless the world around us?
- 36:31
- How does what we wear represent our hope in resurrected bodies of glory?
Transcript
Kymberli Cook:
Welcome to The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kymberli Cook and I'm the Assistant Director here at the Hendrick Center. And today we're going to be talking about fashion and theology. I'm so excited. I really like fashion. We are joined by two other people that I think really find it at least interesting or like it. We're joined by Jacob Taylor, who is a DTS student and fashion designer with Jacob Taylor Design. It's nice to have you here, Jacob.
Jacob Taylor:
Thanks for having me.
Kymberli Cook:
And we're also joined by Robert. I always want to call you Roberto. But Robert Covolo. I say it in my head all the time. So there you go. Robert.
Robert Covolo:
My dad called me Roberto because we're of Italian stock. So.
Kymberli Cook:
Perfect.
Robert Covolo:
My wife's from Mexico. So you're not far off.
Kymberli Cook:
Maybe that's why. Covolo. It just seems like it should be Roberto Covolo. Robert Covolo, who is the Director of The Pastoral Residency Center at Christ Church Sierra Madre. He's got a lot of titles. Director of Vocational Disciple at the Center For Faith and Work in Los Angeles. He is adjunct faculty at Fuller, teaching a course on Fashion Theology. And he was previously on faculty at the Torrey Honors Institute at Biola. So he is ultimately, I don't know, credible. Yeah.
Robert Covolo:
I would say so.
Kymberli Cook:
But thank you so much for being here, Robert. We really appreciate your presence and everything that we know you're going to bring to this conversation.
Robert Covolo:
Thank you. It's a delight to be here.
Kymberli Cook:
Awesome. All right. So let's just get started. This is a topic that a lot of people don't think should be combined, fashion and theology. Those are two separate things that are either, it seems, opposed to one another, or at least neutral to one another and just kind of exist in the same world, but they don't really interact. Obviously by the topic of this podcast, we don't think that that's true. We think that there is important reflection to be had in this area. So how did you all end up thinking about living in and considering the relationship between fashion and theology? So let's start with Jacob and then we'll move to Robert.
Jacob Taylor:
I grew up in Europe for about eight years of my life and I caught the fashion bug there. I became aware of quality, the differences in quality of fashion there. I was cross sectored at that time with English couture, haute couture, is the full phrase and I was blown away at seven and the rest is history. It probably has taken over about half my existence and again, I love it. And when you love something, it's never work, never work. Never, never, never work. So.
Kymberli Cook:
And so, how did you end up being a DTS student having that interest? Because that sounds like, okay, well that makes sense that you have your own brand, design brand, but how did you end up here at DTS and thinking about theology?
Jacob Taylor:
Well, I was in California. My background is that I am a pastor's son, so I was aware of God and those things like that. And I knew that I needed to become equipped. And so my wife and I were living in Anaheim, California, just about a year and three months ago. And we answered call from a local well known pastor here in this area and flash bang, boom, I'm here. And I'm taking up a degree that really speaks to my heart and men as well. Also being a veteran, that's kind of my focus as a student here. But that's what took me here, is to answer the call, to help equip and build men for the service of the Lord in various applications. My personal loves have been tools that have been utilized to draw men, but for sure to assist and partner with the Lord to do that. So, yeah, that's how I ended up at DTS.
Kymberli Cook:
Fantastic. Robert, you've written a whole book on and you teach class on fashion theology. How did you end up thinking about this area?
Robert Covolo:
Well, I was a college pastor in Long Beach, not far from Anaheim where Jacob was and they had a large fashion studies program there. And I had nothing to say to my fashion studies students. I could talk about how Christianity interacts with psychology or the sciences, you name it, but I didn't know what to tell these students. And so, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord of everything and that Jesus matters to everything and everything matters in relationship to Jesus. So I was just curious. I had family that were in the industry. There was a lot of people in my church that also had fashion lines.
Robert Covolo:
But there was one more piece, and that is that one day, my daughter, I think she was like four or five found an old pillowcase and she had created a gown. It was really cute. But I just thought to myself, how is it that this is such an essential part of who we are, before we become rational, before we become really thinking beings, we want to interact with this and what does this tell us about our humanity? And so my mind, I just had a lot of questions and I didn't know where to begin. And so I began exploring fashion studies and I did that as a theologian. And so.
Robert Covolo:
I'll add one more thing. I had to do a writing sample because all my writing samples were terrible to try to get in a PhD program in theology. And so, I picked up an essay by Abraham Kuyper and in it, it was an essay that was written, I think, in 1867 and it was on the relationship between fashion and secularization. And here was a theologian, in 1867, talking about the importance of fashion and how we need to take fashion serious if we're going to be Christians in the modern period. And I was spelldown. So all those things kind of came together and just kind of exploded this interest in studying fashion as a Christian and as someone that wants to help equip the church to engage this important area of culture.
Kymberli Cook:
That every single one of us, hopefully, engages every single day. Like we all wear clothes pretty much every day. So it's a relevant thing. No. And to your point about your daughter, it is. It's just ingrained in us. And the fact that there hasn't been more reflection is interesting to me, especially with the level of interest for both men and women, there are a lot of people who are interested in fashion and it just never seems to combine. So, okay. So for those who would be listening, who are still hanging with us and they say, okay, fashion isn't my favorite thing in the world, but I have a daughter that really cares, I have a wife that really cares, I have these people in my ministry that I know are aware of it, tell me how, this sounds incredibly pejorative, but tell me how to take them seriously, because I have a hard time taking this seriously. Robert, what would you say to them?
Robert Covolo:
I guess I would start off by saying that our culture takes fashion incredibly serious. So if you're going to try to engage a culture, it's just, if you are a missionary, if you are far removed from the world of fashion that you have to look at it from the outside, at least have the heart of a missionary that wants to understand and reach, especially your children. But I would say that when you look at the history of Christianity, if you don't take fashion serious, you're kind of out of step. And this was a big shock for me, was when I read through the whole scope of Christian history, I was shocked by how many Christian theologians took fashion incredibly serious and thought it was an important subject. And even before the rise of fashion, what we'd call modern fashion, even as far back as in the fifth century and in even the late fourth century, you have St. Augustine talking about how incredibly important clothing is.
Robert Covolo:
And so, I guess I would say that you're a little out of step. You need to understand that we have a theological inheritance that's gone before us, that has shown, at least taken very serious, the role of dress and then when fashion emerges, the role of fashion. So then I would finally just say that once you actually start to understand what fashion is, I think you would take it serious. When you start to see all the different ways fashion intersects as an art form, as a form of communication, the way it shapes our social realities, the way it shapes social power, the way it influences politics, the way in which it opens up democracy, I think that part of that kind of like, I don't know, I don't care, I think that actually some of that is just simply, I just don't know. And that's okay. I didn't know. So.
Kymberli Cook:
Jacob, what would you add?
Jacob Taylor:
Building upon Robert's foundation, completely accurate. It is important. I take it to, oh man, the Bible. I just think about how detailed God is and how specific he was in building the priests' outfit. And then having gone to Israel and saw it on display. And I was like, man, that breast plate is beautiful. I could see that on a leather jacket. That's kind of how my brain works. But then I'm learning languages and I've been immersed in the languages of the Bible pretty much on my life. But I was like, and Christianity and my faith became an actual central love of my life, Christ became a love of my life, I figured, how can I marry all my loves? I loved performing. I loved drawing. I loved sneakers. I blame a certain basketball player who played for the red oxen of Chicago.
Jacob Taylor:
But anyway, I just thought, how can I marry all my loves? And it came to me one day when I put the word father or ab, I went into my little commentary that was on my dad's shelf and I just drew the shoe first and then drew that and then drew a shield around it and then drew a hovering crown. And it just... The rest was history. But why it should be taken seriously? Because again, as Robert said, it conveys, it communicates a thing. When people say the statement, this particular outfit says this, from presidential to artsy, stars and things like that. If they want to say a thing of how they feel about themselves without saying what they feel, they'll say it with an outfit. I think of a R and B artist who shall remain nameless, but she once showed up in an outfit full of mirrors, full of mirrors.
Jacob Taylor:
And I was thinking, what is she saying? What is she saying? And it's up for debate obviously because it's in her particular inspiration would ever let her or somebody around her said, I think this would be the time for you to wear this because it will say this to the world. And so for me, it was messaging in the heart and some of my inspirations as a designer were definitely would say the same thing. They would say, how you feel goes into what you do. And it's conveyed in the world from color choice to material choice to symbols you come up with, decorative elements, all of those things, they directly speak and agree with what Robert says. It's important from almost day seven of creation. No, but yeah. And so, I think that's why you should take it seriously because, again, it's so interwoven in our general culture at large and then to varying degrees expressed very powerfully in different types of cultures for different messaging, different distinguishing messages, royalty versus Nobles versus commons versus... That kind of thing. So.
Kymberli Cook:
So, you mentioned the seventh day of creation and turning to think biblically about clothing and Genesis and we see clothing showing up in Genesis and it doesn't necessarily have a great connotation there, I believe.
Jacob Taylor:
The beginning.
Kymberli Cook:
At least around three. Yeah. At chapter three. And going through scripture and even as I was preparing for this, I kind of, I wasn't really digging in, but I was kind of thinking of all of the passages that I could think of that had to do with dress or even culture, because that really gets into this conversation too, how we interact with the culture, the passage about women not having fine apparel or intricate hairstyles, all of that. One, what do you all see in scripture with regard to dress, both negative and positive, its statements about negative and positive? Let's start there. Jacob, why don't we start with you? What do you see?
Jacob Taylor:
The first outfits that were not constructed by man were made of leather. So. No, I'm kidding. But it was a... Oh, how do you say this? I'll take the positive element and I'll partner it with messaging again. Positively speaking, you want to convey how you feel and where you're at one way or another, whether it's your face, whether it's a color, whether it's a thing. But if you take it to scripture, I think about Aaron and Eli and all of the priests, I like to go there and I how the Royal composition, the stones on the breastplate and how God selected them and told him specific things what to do, I think my thought about what God was attempting to do by allowing it to be recorded was telling a few things, how detailed he is and how much he likes variety and the intent where it leads you to think. We call it aspiration or inspirational pointing, driving, messaging.
Jacob Taylor:
Positively speaking, I think the creator intended us to understand that part of ourselves by referring to scripture and seeing when he exerted his creativity in designing concepts, designing empirical things like the earth. I mean, the earth is amazing. The universe, all of it, the grand designer knows what he's doing. So.
Kymberli Cook:
Well, even to your point about messaging, though, it's a negative message, genesis three when God creates that, it still says something.
Jacob Taylor:
It does.
Kymberli Cook:
It is very explicitly communicating something. The fact that they had to wear the clothing and all of that.
Jacob Taylor:
Yeah.
Kymberli Cook:
Robert, what would you add with regard to scripture and where we see clothing and scripture.
Robert Covolo:
Yeah. I think if you take the scope of the biblical narrative, clothing is placed in an incredibly positive light. To be found naked is a metaphor for deprivation in scripture. And so you see the Proverbs 31 woman who not only knows how to dress her house, but they look great. They're all dressed in red. It gets into the detail. They're decked out. When they leave the house, people know they're taken care of. You've got Isaiah 60:11, "He clothes us in robes of righteousness."
Jacob Taylor:
There you go.
Robert Covolo:
And actually, Jesus Christ himself, we are to be clothed in Christ. We are commanded to put on Jesus Christ. And when you come to the story of Genesis, I think oftentimes, having studied the history of theology, it's for us to see clothing emerging as a part of the fall. But I believe that actually, when you want to understand the logic of fashion, the logic of dress will say, it actually begins the first time they're seeing and being seen.
Robert Covolo:
So when Adam sees Eve and Eve sees Adam, and there's a declaration and explosion of poetry, it's that activity of seeing and being seen that is the very logic of dress. And that's why we take it serious. And the fall is actually where we see the corruption of that logic. But that doesn't mean that we need to be a part of that corruption, right?
Jacob Taylor:
Absolutely.
Robert Covolo:
That God wants to redeem the way that we see and are seen. And so you can do a biblical theology of clothing from Genesis to revelation. I'm halfway through a book that does that. Hope to get that out this next year. So, but I think there's just so much good stuff in the Bible. We could talk about the beautiful wedding dress in, I think it's Psalm 22:23. No. Psalm... The Psalmist talks about the beautiful wedding dress or... There's all these things that kind of speak very positively to clothing. So.
Robert Covolo:
There is this passage that talks about women not showing up to church services and being a distraction and being focused, losing their focused. But the very fact that you can lose focus just simply shows the significance in the importance of dress. It doesn't diminish it. It just says that there's a time and a place and there is such a thing. And I think there is such a thing as dressing appropriately, hospitably, a way that invites the kind of conviviality. I love that word, conviviality, in social settings, right? I just got married a month ago. I tried to dress nice. My bride looked amazing. People showed up, dressed up and it lifted and elevated the whole experience. This was a sacred time. And by all of us dressing collectively, there was a grand conviviality that really glorified and honored the Lord.
Robert Covolo:
So, I think that the biblical message is really interesting. And here's one, go through the narrative arc of the story of Joseph and just see every single turn in the story hinges on what he's wearing, or look at all the different changes and outfits for Jesus. Jesus wears lots to... He's swaddled, he's got a crown of thorns. So, the Bible's fascinating when it comes to clothing. And it gives a very interesting message that has lots of different pieces to it.
Kymberli Cook:
So you made reference to that, just like all the rest of creation, it is fallen and it can be fallen. And I guess my question and I'm hearing the theological themes that you're bringing out, I agree with them, but I also see a lot in church history, but even in some of those passages about the lilies of the field arraying themselves and we don't need to worry that. And I mean, I guess you did talk about the women, sorry, I'm going back to my notes, but we're told not to love the world and or things in the world and that kind of thing.
Kymberli Cook:
So I do think that there is a question that arises, especially if you're taking seriously your suggestion that this does seem to be a very positive theological theme that we need to reflect on. The question is, okay, but it seems like in the redemption of it, it seems like a lot of the instruction and the tradition has been to minimize it and to elevate simplicity. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's not thought behind it. It doesn't mean that we don't value it, but it does seem like simplicity has been elevated, just certainly by John Wesley and by Tertullian, like you talk about in your book, but also in some of these passages. So what are your thoughts? Robert, I'm going to start with you.
Robert Covolo:
All Right. You threw out a lot of different questions.
Kymberli Cook:
Sorry. Sorry. I did. The main question being, if we are trying to embrace all of those good things about theology or I'm sorry, about clothing and theological truths about clothing that you're suggesting and I agree with, what do we do with what seems like a push against valuing that in a tangible way now as we're practically living life?
Robert Covolo:
Yeah. So loving the world is... The world there is not the creation, right? The world there is the entire world system that ignores and neglects God and attempts to find its meaning within finite creation and therefore elevates finite things to the place of the creator. But in terms of the gift of creation, I think that there's a place for celebrating and rejoicing and all the color and texture and taste and form and beauty of this world, which we find out will one day be redeemed and elevated in the new Jerusalem. And so to be a Christian is not to be some kind of aesthetic that just rejects any kind of pleasure. There is a place for, and we do find this in the theological witness, Aquinas is really good about this. There is a place for moderation. You can throw yourself into something in a way that's out of balance.
Robert Covolo:
Jacob is a fashion designer and this is his vocation. So he should be focusing and spending a lot of time in ways that maybe I shouldn't be because it's not my primary vocation, is design clothing. That's not what I'm focusing on. So we also need to recognize that people have different kind of callings within the body and allow for that. And there are some people that are called to a very simple lifestyle, and we need to also elevate that as the good thing and allow them also to be a part of the body of Christ and not say that there's only one to approach this. The reality is clothing is so unique and multifaceted that we should expect multiple ways in which people within our communities respond and decide to honor Christ in this sphere.
Kymberli Cook:
Jacob, what would you add?
Jacob Taylor:
Again, building on that appropriate balance assessment. Robert's right. The only way I could be a fashion designer as a vocation or one of my vocations is the fact that I surrendered it to the gospel. I had to allow it and the Lord had to instill it in me through the lens of my Christianity, or I wouldn't do it. Because then to me, it's a waste of time because it would be a love that would take my heart away from him. And it would be something I would build a name for myself, which is totally what I do didn't want to do, because I had seen the perils play out of people who in various different fields built names for themselves. And that castle fell, that empire crumbled and great was the fall thereof. But I surrendered it to the gospel and said, okay Lord, what was your intention behind fashion or dress?
Jacob Taylor:
And growing up in Europe helped me from a practical, immersive standpoint to do just that. And then growing up in England, specifically, monarchy. Even if it's just figurehead, in name only, do you see how they get down when they walk Buckingham palace? And so, it says, again, messaging, I believe God intended to say something from his heart through every concept he has revealed to us and whatever that message is, it was his glory to conceal it, it's our honor to discover it. And that's where I start. And so I sit with him to gain any design I get and say, what do you want to say through my hands and what comes on this paper? And it's prayer before doing it and not almost allow... Whatever he comes in he messages through, it could be out of my devotion or whatever. And it's a real thing.
Jacob Taylor:
But again, it's surrendered to the gospel and appropriate balance. Like Robert said, you're not over focusing on it as some replacement for the Lord, at least not in balanced Christianity or balanced Christiandom, as they say, but it really matters where your heart is when you engage in anything you do. And so for us, we are seeking to honor God with the things that he has created. I mean, cajillion, bajillion ways to honor him that don't conflict with his character and he just absorbs it, sweet smelling sacrifice. Ah, I'm getting that out of his life because I put it in him to reap a harvest, that out her life, ah, yes. Reaping a harvest. This is one of my offerings to the Lord is my fashion design. I surrender every project from the naming of it to the material choice, to the texture, to colors, to the finish, what I want the finish product to say. Then I ask the question in prayer, Lord, is this what you were... Is this it? And he's just that involved, just that involved. So, yep.
Kymberli Cook:
So you mentioned Aquinas, Robert and what he said with regard to temperance, what other historical voices are there that help inform how we should think about fashion or have at least spoken into it? Because you said there were a variety of people.
Robert Covolo:
Yeah. Yeah. You got to get the book.
Kymberli Cook:
Yeah. There's a lot there.
Jacob Taylor:
I will do that, Robert. I will do that.
Robert Covolo:
An interesting one is Karl Barth, who really wants to understand how fashion can be conscripted into larger kind of like systems of power and oppression. And he kind of is the patron Saint of going against sweat shops. Amazing how much Barth kind of saw that going on. And, but if you go back to Calvin, you want to talk about someone that believes in simplicity. If Luther is the priesthood of believers, Calvin's the monk-hood of believers. And yet John Calvin, interestingly enough, had incredibly positive things to say about God's good gift in giving us clothing. And that there's something that dignifies and elevates our humanity and that we can recognize that.
Robert Covolo:
You know St. Augustibe, you know when I doing this fashion theory research, I studied with the top fashion theorist over in the UK, this guy named Malcolm Bernard. He's an atheist. And he was shocked that a theologian wanted to study with him. And he kept telling me, what you need to do is, you need to write a book that shows how fashion and theology have nothing in common. And so I was open to that. I was open to just... I just simply... I wasn't trying to fit them together, make them work. I just wanted to tell a true story. And what I came to discover, which was so amazing, is that there has been such an overwhelming amount of conversation by theologians. Very positively too. Not always. There's Tertullian who I'm... I like Tertullian in some ways, but I'm not a fan of this theology of culture. If Tertullian would've got his way, you would be wearing a hijab right now because in North Africa during his era, women were dressing the same way that Muslim women dress.
Robert Covolo:
I mean, that's not an Islamic distinctive, that's actually a north African distinctive that got pulled up and spread into worldwide Islam. He was arguing that all women should be covered from head to toe, with little tiny isolates. But thank the Lord, his theology of culture lost and Augustine, who's theology of culture won, actually talks about, I call him the first fashion theorist. He actually talks about how fashion works as a complex, a form of communication within advanced societies in the fifth century. So I had to tell my poor professor that in spite of his idea that Christianity has nothing to do with fashion, we actually were at the party first and theologians were the first fashion theorists. So.
Kymberli Cook:
I'm sure he appreciated that.
Jacob Taylor:
Right.
Robert Covolo:
He gave a good review of the book too, which was very kind of him. So yeah. So I just think get the book. But it's really quite shocking how serious Christians have taken dress and clothing. And not in a way that's dour or something like that. Another favorite thinker is Calvin Seerveld, who is a Christian philosopher, and he's written quite a bit about the joy of dress and how we can express it. And when I hear Jacob, I hear him talking about the joy he finds in his creativity and being able to put this together in these designs. And there is a place for great joy in getting dressed. And we can add a little bit of joy into other people's lives when we think about, because they have to look at us. When we dress, other people have to look at us. What are we going to do to them? Are we going to make it like a downer that they have to look at? Are we going to make it interesting and fun?
Kymberli Cook:
Trying to respect, at least.
Jacob Taylor:
Right.
Robert Covolo:
Respect, maybe. Yeah.
Kymberli Cook:
Yeah.
Jacob Taylor:
Right. Right. Can I add to that?
Kymberli Cook:
Absolutely.
Jacob Taylor:
That is amazing. So building upon that, and again, he mentioned Augustine and I was thinking back to just how exactly it developed for me. There was the initial spark by just seeing a couple of the runway shows in England. And at that time, dating myself, Calvin Klein was pairing double breasted suit jackets with jeans. Oh. It's like the most phenomenal thing ever in the eighties. They were like, whoa, has this ever been done? Go search the house of common archives. We normally would wear white wigs.
Jacob Taylor:
But to take it to pop culture, one of my favorite movies and I won't mention it, but the protagonist is an amazing actress. And her antagonist turned protagonist is also an amazing actress. She's legendary. But the movie talked about how... There was a snide comment made by the protagonist and the co-protagonist stopped everything in the track, stopped the photo shoot, stopped everything and said, huh, you think it's just blue, huh? Do you understand how this process came to be? Even that blue sweater you're wearing... As she goes down this, not a rant, an educational moment that taught the protagonist a lesson, not to. You do not ever disregard the effort, the labor, the pieces of the puzzle, the supply chain, the delivery, all the way down to what influenced her to choose that blue sweater that she showed up to work late for and had the nerve to actually say something. You may know the name of the movie, but that movie spoke to me in ways a lot of other things couldn't. And so I took that as a further affirmation of that I was doing the right thing.
Kymberli Cook:
Hmm. So with that in mind, how do I, as a regular person who took a blue sweater out of the closet this morning, how do I allow this conversation to impact what I choose to wear, what I buy? What do I do with this? Okay. That's great. There have been lots of people throughout history that have talked about, why Christians should care about dress because it's part of the world. And if I'm cynical, I might even say that's because they just wanted to control everything. I don't think that that's true. I'm getting a PhD in theology. I love theologians. But let's take the cynical route. How does all of this impact what I do, what I buy, what I wear? What would you say Jacob?
Jacob Taylor:
One way or another dress is a means of expression personally first. No matter who you are, where you are in this world, no matter what gender, man or woman, you're going to dress how you feel. I grew up in the nineties and the goth movement and the grunge movement blew up on the heels of certain influential people that just dressed a certain way. Their idea towards their fashion might have been, eh, but people thought if I'm going to buy into this mindset, I need to dress like that. It'll say the same thing that I'm picking up from this person or persons or famous people. So it's actually undeniable. And what we hope to do, what I hope to do is kind of help people take a different look at why they made the choices, fashion wise, Christian or non-Christian.
Jacob Taylor:
And for instance, blue. We are surrounded by blue every day, green and brown earth tones hit us every day. That was God's choice. Why? I don't know why the sky's blue. It could have been Emerald. It could have been magenta, but he made it blue. There's studies that show that blue is one of the most aesthetically pleasing and mood calming colors.
Kymberli Cook:
I was going to say, calming. Yeah.
Jacob Taylor:
Yeah. Mood calming colors. And so it influences you whether you on it to or not. You may choose to do something that helps you express your calm mood. So you may have chosen that blue based on that, ah, this is how I'm feeling today. And then there you go. And then piecing it together, that's another expression of your creativity, whether you would gauge yourself as creative or not. That's how I would hope it would affect someone, is to take another look through a different lens and say, well, am I influenced? The answer you'll probably find is, yes. And is this influence bad? Hmm. Or is it enriching? I would err toward the side of enriching.
Kymberli Cook:
What would you say Robert?
Robert Covolo:
First, I just want to say, I really like Jacob's answer. Yeah. It is a way of informing ourselves about, and also bringing kind of things to the surface sometimes. And I would say that as you think about your day and what you're going to do that day, just ask this question, how can I show respect and how can I show hospitality and more, and how can I bless the people that I'm going to be interacting with today? And sometimes that means you're going to be building a house maybe for the poor, well put on your grunges, come on now. But maybe it means that you're going to have a meeting with somebody. I can see that you took some time to get dressed today and it elevates this event.
Jacob Taylor:
Amazing. [crosstalk 00:36:30].
Kymberli Cook:
Yeah.
Jacob Taylor:
That house too.
Robert Covolo:
Yeah. Also I would say, one of the themes that throughout all the theological witness kept coming up again and again, is that the reason why we are captivated by dress, one of the reasons, is that it gives us hope for our bodies. And we are people of the resurrection.
Jacob Taylor:
Amen.
Robert Covolo:
And we believe that our bodies are going to be one day so glorious, C.S. Lewis says that people would be tempted to worship us if they saw us now. Well, give a little bit of a clue that that's the future of your body. Step into a little bit, just to inform yourself, remind yourself, you know what, this is passing away. One day, I'm going to explode from the grave. I'm going to be raised to new life. And I am going to be filled with glory and I'm going to at least get outside of my fuddy duddies just to remind myself today that I have resurrection hope.
Jacob Taylor:
Absolutely.
Robert Covolo:
And so dress for yourself. But also if you kind of take it a little serious and you step it up, who knows, people might say, you look nice today. You say, yeah, no, I've got a great future in front of me and give you a chance for you to let people know about the hope you have. So there's lots of reasons, lots of ways that we can approach it. But it's definitely a vehicle for us to honor the Lord. And yeah, you can get all crazy and spend all your money on clothing. And you can do that with anything.
Kymberli Cook:
Be obsessed with it. So, yeah.
Robert Covolo:
We're saying that. Yeah, but we are saying, this this is a wonderful avenue in which we can honor Christ and show that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Kymberli Cook:
Well, and to y'all's points, I think I really liked what you said about the color with the world and all that. I think we might go somewhere else with that. But I even think of just as you're trying to encourage people and even thinking about it yourself, what I'm hearing you all say is that it is a form of communication. Whether you like it or not, you're communicating something. And so you need to be aware of the communication. And as an ambassador of Christ, which all of us are, you are communicating something about the kingdom, whether or not, and to your point, Robert, then, embrace that like the resurrection, the coming kingdom as well, and embrace it.
Jacob Taylor:
I love that, Robert. Love it, love it.
Kymberli Cook:
But also recognizing that the inescapable fact is that you are also impacting the economy, because what you buy does matter because it has true economic impact. And so maybe, perhaps even thinking through to your point about what Karl Barth was saying, Robert, thinking about what you purchase and to your point... I almost called you Robert again.
Jacob Taylor:
That's fine. I'll answer to it.
Kymberli Cook:
To your point, Jacob.
Jacob Taylor:
It's good.
Robert Covolo:
You should call him Roberto.
Jacob Taylor:
Yeah, call me Roberto.
Kymberli Cook:
Well, I was going to say, because you're Roberto in my mind, so he's Robert.
Jacob Taylor:
I can be Jacobo. I can be Jacob.
Kymberli Cook:
No, but to your point, Jacob, I mean, I totally lost track of my train of thought. But oh, that what we communicate is often pointing to something else.
Jacob Taylor:
Yeah.
Kymberli Cook:
And so your economics are supporting that design, that brand, that store, that way of life, all of that. And so not only are you communicating those things, you're actually supporting them.
Jacob Taylor:
You're supporting them.
Kymberli Cook:
And so we have to think through that as well.
Jacob Taylor:
Yes, ma'am.
Kymberli Cook:
Well, I could talk about this all day and I probably haven't engaged y'all's statements as much as I should have as a host because I'm just sitting here like, Hm. Yeah, that's true. Oh, I like that. So thank you all for being willing to chat about this with me.
Jacob Taylor:
Absolutely.
Kymberli Cook:
It's nice to feat meet other believers who see this and see it as an important dimension of our life, our communication.
Jacob Taylor:
Yes. Ma'am.
Kymberli Cook:
Our place in this world and as believers and followers of Jesus. And so I just really appreciate your time. Thank you, Robert, for being here with us.
Jacob Taylor:
Thank you, Robert. Thank you so much.
Robert Covolo:
Jacob, I want to connect after this thing.
Jacob Taylor:
Absolutely. Obviously. Man, you were reading my mind.
Kymberli Cook:
And we want to thank you who have been listening. Thank you for joining us today on The Table. Please just subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and leave us an honest review. It really does help more people discover these conversations and we hope that you will join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture.
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Thanks for listening to The Table podcast. Dallas Theological Seminary, teach truth, love well.