Discipleship in the Workplace

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, welcome to The Table Podcast. My name is Bill Hendricks. I'm the executive director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center. I start with a question, in this edition of The Table. What do you think is the number one need for leaders today? What do leaders need right now, more than anything else? An idea? A vision? A strategy? Hope? Leaders need all of those things and more, I believe, but a leader's greatest need, in my judgment, is actually a person, a person that we call a mentor. 

That's taken right out of Proverbs 27:17, "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens their friend." The image there is of a piece of iron that has , through use, become bent, dulled, it's lost its edge. The only thing capable of knocking that iron back into sharp, usefulness is another piece of iron. The image is of a person working iron beating on a mallet, a sword, some implement in order to make it useful again. It takes that image and it contrasts it over against a person having the same kind of influence on another person. The way we'd say it today is we rub off on each other. Well, that's what leaders need. They need another person to rub off on them in a positive way. It's life on life influence. That's the model of course, that Jesus left us. Go and make disciples. Life on life impact. 

Today, I have Larry O'Donnell with us who knows a lot about mentoring and its implications for leadership. Larry, take this the right way, I don't know whether your name will be a household name for our listeners, but there's at least there's a couple of claims to fame that you have that they may recognize. One is, you at one point served as the president and COO of Waste Management, which is a massive Fortune 500 company. Most of us associate waste management with dumpsters and garbage trucks and hauling away stuff. At the time you were with Waste Management, you had a dumpster fire on your hands and you had to lead a whole turnaround of that organization, which then you did. It gave you the credibility to write a book entitled Management Waste: Five Steps to Clean Up The Mess and Lead With Purpose. I want to come back and talk about messes, because our world is certainly in a big mess right now. 

Then of course some of you may recognize, Larry, you are actually the first CEO featured on the hit television show, Undercover Boss. We may have time to get into that. 

I'm fascinated with where you ended up there and all the accomplishments in addition to that. I mean, where was growing up for you and how in the world did you get into business in the first place? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Well, I grew up in my family's construction business. As a young boy, it being a family business, I guess the child labor laws didn't apply. I think my first job I started maybe in second grade, sweeping the floors and stocking the shelves of our hardware and lumber yard. We had a construction company. Then progressed from that to being an electrician, a framing carpenter, plumber, heavy equipment operator until eventually I was running crews in high school. Then, eventually I graduated from that and went on to college, got my engineering degree, and then got my law degree. 

You couldn't have charted it. God blessed me with an incredible career that was all over the place. I practiced law for 10 years. I'm really an oil field guy. Spent almost 10 years just determined that I actually enjoyed business more than practicing law. I wanted to move out of law practicing into business. God opened a door for me to go to Baker Hughes, which was the third largest oil service company in the world. Fortunately, we're talking about mentors, the CEO there knew what I was trying to do, took me under his wing and he served as my business mentor until he passed away just a few years ago. I was very blessed with that opportunity. 

Bill Hendricks: 

What was something that guy did that you look back and say, "That shaped me," or, "That opened a door. That marked me in some way." 

Larry O'Donnell: 

His name was Jim Woods. He never gave me the answer, but he had this ability to always ask questions that I had not thought of. I would go to him even after I left Baker Hughes and went on to Waste Management to help turn that company around, spent 10 and a half years there. I would call him all the time, even there, I'd say, "Look, here's the situation." He didn't know that industry. I didn't know that industry before I got there. I could explain the situation and tell him how I had thought about the various options. Then I'd ask him, "What am I missing?" He just had this incredible ability to ask me questions that caused me to think deeper about whatever the issue was, that then led me to the right answer. He didn't know the right answer, but he just had this incredible ability to do that. He served me well throughout my career. He was very gifted in that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

He was almost like a quasi board of directors for you. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

The reason I think people ought to have a mentor is you don't want to have somebody that's in your organization ... I mean, that can happen, but it's better if they're not. When he was serving in that role, his total motivation was to help me. He didn't have any other influences of like, "Oh, I really want to ... " If it's in his own company, there might be some other influences on what he was doing. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Absolutely. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

All he was thinking about is how can I make you be the best you can be? How can I help you? How can I help you arrive at the best decision that's going to help you in your career or help you be a better leader? That was his 100% motivation. The other thing about that, is when you are CEO or it doesn't matter what kind of leader you're in, when you're thinking about really difficult situations, if it's not well thought out and you take it to your boss or you take it to your board or you take it to your team and they start coming up with the questions that you haven't thought of, you don't look as good. It's not so good. 

Now, I think you always need to get input from them because they are going to have ideas that you haven't thought about, but some of the more obvious things that maybe you wish you would've thought about, it really helps to have a mentor help you think through those things. Then you can also respond to questions from your board, from your boss, from others. Even a pastor, a senior pastor. I happen to serve as a mentor to several pastors. It's things that we can talk about before they take it to their elders. We can talk through some things and I can maybe help them think of some issues that maybe they haven't thought of before, not because I have the answers just by asking some other questions. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, don't you think that most of the questions that a person in that role is going to have is some form of the statement? I don't know what to do here. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Always. Always. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Or I think I know. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But I'm not sure. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

There could be some problems here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Maybe there's something I'm not seeing. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Right. Right. Because if it was easy, anybody could do it. I mean, there's always unexpected consequences or unexpected things that can happen, no matter what you decide. At least having someone, I've always found it valuable. Not that they necessarily know your business, but they've just got more experience in life, life experiences that they can draw upon. Might not be the exact same situation, but they can draw upon those life experiences to then sort of say, "Well, what about this? Have you thought about this?" I've just always found that invaluable. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'm curious. What do you think created that desire on the part of ... Did you say his name was John? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Jim. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Jim. Jim. What caused Jim to care? Where does somebody come by caring? I've always been fascinated by that. What induces that do you think? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I can't answer for him. I can answer for me because I also feel like not only should everyone have a mentor, they should also mentor others. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Good. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

It was actually something I started doing even in high school. I was leading bible studies in high school. I can remember as a junior and senior really pouring into a couple of sophomores and freshmen that I'm still friends with even today. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's great. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Where does that come from? One is, I think it's biblical. I think God gives us these experiences so that we can help others. There's a reason we're left here after we become Christians. If we're already going to heaven, why not just zap us away? Well, that's not the plan. Jesus modeled it for us. Pour into some disciples, get them up ready to go so that they can then go make disciples. I think that's where it comes from. I think we're made that way. We're made in the image of God and that's what Jesus modeled for, so we ought to be doing it. 

I also do it just because I get tremendous joy out of it. Throughout my career, I've tried to pour into people and help them advance in their careers. Now, to look back and see where people are ... I'll give you a great example. You can look in the book. The foreword is written by the current CEO of Waste Management. I write about him in the book. He then gives his perspective in the foreword. He was a guy that when we first got there, Waste Management was a mess. They had acquired, call it, 1200 companies all around the world, nothing had been put together. The financial systems were a mess. When we got there, we had to hire a thousand accountants just to come help us close the books. We didn't even have a good record of what all our assets were. I couldn't have even told you where all of our landfills were. 

Bill Hendricks: 

How does that happen? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

That's a good question. When I started, I had thick, dark hair. Within about two years this is how I looked. It was the biggest mess you've ever seen. We hired this young guy, he was a financial analyst at one of the airlines. We hired him. He came over, did a great job helping us dig into the data, try to figure out what's causing all the problems here. Eventually, he came to me one day and he said, "Larry, I'd really like to move into operations." I was shocked, because he's a numbers guy. I said, "Well, that's interesting. That takes a completely different skill set than what you're really good at." He goes, "I know that. Can you help me fill that gap?" 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I said, "Sure, if you're up for it, but it's going to be uncomfortable." He said, "I've realized that, but that's what I really want to do and I think you can help me." I said, "Okay." I said, "I'm going to try to find a small operation somewhere. I have no idea where the opportunity's going to come. The first one that comes, feel free to say no because it may be in a terrible place and maybe you and your family ..." He had a young family. Sure enough, I came to him and I said, "This is not a good place." I won't say where it is. I don't want to disparage any place. He said, "Let me talk to my wife." He had a very, very supportive wife. 

Anyway, long story short, I moved him and his family all over the place. Some good places, some not so good. His wife was always supportive. His kids were always supportive. They viewed it as an experience for learning for all of them. The other thing is he was very coachable. Anything I would point out, "Hey. Why don't you try this," or, "Why don't you do this?" He was always willing to do it even though it was very uncomfortable. You look at him today, he is not the same guy. I mean he transformed. He is such a wonderful leader. Eventually came back, became CFO, and now he's CEO of the company. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I take great joy in that. I mean it wasn't me. He did what he needed to do. But at the same time, you take some risks on people and you move them into positions and with that you can expect that they're going to make mistakes. You hope it's not a bad one that hurts the company too bad, but that's how you learn. You don't get on them when they make the mistake. You say, "Hey. You know what?" Show empathy to them. I made a ton of mistakes. Let me tell you some of the mistakes I made that were a lot worse than the one you made. Don't worry about it, except learn from it. What did you learn from it? Let's talk about that. At least now you've gotten that out of the way. You won't make that one again. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You know what not to do. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Exactly. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Man, put it behind you. Then in terms of the rest of the team, me as the leader, just take the blame for that. Just say, "Yeah. That was my call, that was my mistake." You know what? That person then will be willing to take the next risk and keep growing and growing, then they're ready to go. 

I don't know, I'm just wired where I've always enjoyed building teams, pouring into people, seeing them progress. I don't know what it is. My plan that God gave me was every 10 years I needed to get out of the way, let the rest of them move up. I moved on and started a new team somewhere and started over. It was always difficult to do that. I cried at every one of those places when I left, because I knew I would never be as close to that team as I was then, but also knew I needed to get out of the way, they were ready for it, let them all move up and I would be there to support them and go somewhere else and start all over and get reenergized. 

Well, I was going to ask you get re-energized by starting a new team. How do you go about doing that? What do you look for? When you put a team together, what are you looking for? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Sometimes I would draw on people that had been on my team elsewhere. For instance, when I went to Waste Management, there were a lot of people from Baker Hughes that came over with me. After Waste Management, I decided I'd never been an entrepreneur, so I went and started an oil service company. I was employed number one, wore all the hats for a while till I could build the team. Eventually we built that to a little over a billion in revenue and now it's a public company. I drew on people from both Waste Management and Baker Hughes. I've always sort of kept a lot of relationships that I draw upon. But then it's always good to bring in new people also. I would always look for people not like me. I want to get people on the team that are a lot different than me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That have gifts you don't have. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Exactly. Because if we're all thinking the way I am we're going to go off the cliff. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's a problem. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I value immensely having a team with different experiences, different points of view, and then they all know, if they don't know me well they learn real quick, let's get the most information that we can, but we're going to make a decision and they all will know quickly, but they all know because after they've worked a while, if we've made the wrong decision, we're going to be the first to figure out quickly wrong decision, actually Fred was right, we should have done what Fred said, now we're going this way. That way everybody is willing on the team. When the decision's made, they're all in knowing, look, he'll be the first to admit he messed that one up and he'll eventually see my point of view, but let's go. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Larry, in the stories you're telling, I'm perceiving a lot of humility on your part as a leader, that you're not the smartest man in the room, not the big thing. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Never was. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's about your people. Yeah. I'm just curious where that comes from. How does somebody get to the point where they're like, "Hey. I'm here to serve these other people." 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I would say it first came to me from my dad. He taught me a lot about leadership early. I was a little kid running adult teams in construction. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Was he the founder of your family business? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

His father was. 

Bill Hendricks: 

His father. Okay. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I remember the first couple of things he told me that have served me really well throughout my career. He said, "Your job as the crew leader is to ask two questions. First ask what is causing them the most frustration in their job and fix it. Get it out of the way. The second thing to ask them is they're the ones out there doing the hard work. Ask them what one thing would they change if they could to either make their job better or make our products better or serve our customers better? What one thing would they want to see changed and then go fix it. Go do that." 

I'm an oil field guy. When I got to Waste Management, I knew nothing about Waste Management other than they happened to be the ones to pick up my trash. I knew if I got the container out there on the right days and at the right time it would disappear and I didn't have to worry about it. When I got there, I didn't know anything about that business. I started going and actually meeting with drivers at 3:00 and 4:00 in the morning before they went on the routes and I'd tell them what we were doing to try to fix the company. It was badly broken. Most of the employees were even embarrassed to say they worked there, that's how messed up it was. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I'd tell them what we were doing and then I'd answer their questions, then I'd pick one of the drivers and I'd tell him or her, "Today's your lucky day, I'm going to be your helper today." Of course they go, "Oh, gosh, this is going to be the worst day of my life." 

Bill Hendricks: 

This guy's not going to know anything. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Exactly. And I didn't. I got better at it. Also, from my upbringing, I always hated to be viewed as the boss's son. That was the worst thing you could call me. Even when I was a little kid, I would outwork anybody because I wanted people to want me on their crew because of what a good colleague I was, not because I was the boss's son. When I'd be out on those trucks, the last thing I wanted was that driver to come back and tell the rest of the team, "That guy's the biggest weenie you've ever seen." 

Bill Hendricks: 

He only has this job because he's the boss's son. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I was working even on the Waste Management trucks. I would get out there and people would go ... 

Bill Hendricks: 

What are you doing here? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I did this throughout time at Waste Management. People would go, "Why is the president of the company spending a whole day picking up trash on the back of a truck? That just seems like a total waste of time." I'm going to tell you, I learned more about what was working and what wasn't by spending that day doing that, than I did sitting in my desk in the ivory tower in downtown Houston. I would ask them the same things. They'd tell me. That's actually how we first built the single operating model out of 1200 companies is by getting the input from the employees doing the frontline jobs, what's working, what's not, how can we make this the best company and make it where people want to work here. 

Then, when you get that feedback, you've got to do something about it because it's worse to ask and to do nothing. That's even worse. Now, you've destroyed all trust. We had like 25,000 trucks, they have more now. I couldn't go get what, 25,000 drivers. I mean I guess I could have, but I'd still be at it even today. I was modeling the behavior that I wanted others to do. Get input from the front line, listen to them and then serve them. That's how we built the operating model. I know that the team there has even taken it to new levels. It's even gone way beyond what we started with. That builds this trust and camaraderie, because they see that the leader isn't just in it for himself or herself. It's like, "Man, this guy really cares about us. Look what he did. This has been a problem around here for years and he fixed it." 

Bill Hendricks: 

He fixed it. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

It gets around. It gets around really, really quick. It builds that kind of trust. Then, biblically, that's what we're called to do. That's what Jesus modeled, in Matthew 20. That story, for your listeners, I'm sure they know the story well, but two of the disciples basically got their mom to go ask Jesus when he ascends into his kingdom, put them at the left and right hand side of him. He took that point, or that moment, to bring all the disciples together and say, "Hey, look, here's how the Gentiles rule. They lorded it over everyone. That's not how I want you to lead." He said, "I came to serve, not to be served." He said, "I even want you to be slaves to everyone." That's the servant leadership model that he gave. Then he proceeded to even wash their feet later and say, "This is the example I'm giving you. Serve people." 

That really got my attention when I saw that in the Bible. I mean, here's Jesus, God, Lord, king and he's serving and he's telling us to serve. I go over this in my book, the typical leadership model that's used today. I call it the top down leadership model. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Command and control. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

It's a pyramid. The leader's at the top, everybody else is down here. 

Bill Hendricks: 

They salute. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

They usually worked really hard to get there. Now that they're there, they're the smartest. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Tell everybody what to do. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

As long as everybody's there serving the leader, they're good. Soon as they quit serving the leader, the leader doesn't need them anymore. The opposite model is the servant leadership model. You take the pyramid and turn it upside down. The leader's down at the bottom serving everyone else. That model looks like the leader is there, has the best interest of everyone on the team, is trying to help them progress in their career, is pouring into them, is even modeling Jesus Christ to them, helping them see Christ. That's the servant leadership model. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. That sounds a lot like Philippians two. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Put others' interest ahead of yourself. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Ahead of yourself. Correct. That's where empathy comes in. Empathy is the magic that makes all of that come together. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, then you were the perfect person to ... 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Perfect? No, I'm not perfect in anything. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You were the perfect person to be the first CEO on Undercover CEO. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

That's interesting how that came about. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You'd been modeling and practicing that, auditioning for that for years. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

They had this concept, and it's a good one, that management and leaders don't have a clue what's really going on the front line. Okay? That's accurate. 

Bill Hendricks: 

A lot distance between the street and the office. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

That's accurate. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Right. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

They were trying to get somebody of one of the big Fortune 500 companies to do it. Everybody was telling them no. They were pretty smart people. They go to the biggest PR firm in the country that's based in LA, who we were using because we were trying to get our reputation restored, after it was destroyed with what the prior management had done. I was working with the principals very closely for a number of years, so they knew I was going out and doing this. These producers, they go and they say, "Hey. Would any of your big companies ... " I think they represented half of the Fortune 200. Would any of your clients be interested in this concept? They said, "You know what? We know just the company and we know just the guy. You're not going to believe, because he's already doing this, but it's going to be a hard sell because he's not one that likes bringing attention to himself." 

They bring it to me and, "I go Reality TV? No way." I said, "I don't even watch reality TV, but the little bit I know about it, it's people that have severe character flaws and they want everyone in the world to know about it. I'd just as soon keep mine to myself. Okay? No, I'm not doing it." Of course, our marketing group was, "Oh, this is going to be great for the company. We're going to get all this free advertising." By this time, by the way, Waste Management is way out of the ditch. We are flying. We're doing great. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're rolling. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

We're rolling. Reputation restored. Things are going great, stock's doing great. Employees are happy. I don't really want to do this. A lot can go wrong. Well then on top of that I find out that we will have no editing rights. I said, "No. I'm out. No. We're not doing this. I don't know what they're doing." 

Bill Hendricks: 

It feels too risky. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I don't know these people. I take it to the board of directors. I said, "Okay. Here's this opportunity. I don't want to do it. The marketing people tell me I'm totally wrong, it's going to be unbelievable for the company. The production company tells me it's not about me. It's about telling the great stories from the frontline employees." I know, because I hear them every time I go out. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You know what you're going to hear. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I get that. It's going to be great stories. I said, "That's the upside. The downside is we have worked our tails off turning this company around and I don't know what these people are going to film. I don't know how they're going to put it together. We have no editing rights, anything. One little bad thing can destroy all that we've done. I don't want to do it. What do you think?" they said, "Yep. You've analyzed it right. It could be unbelievable for the company, it could also be a disaster. Hope you make the right decision." Thanks. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Did you go to your mentor? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I go, "Thanks." Yeah, I did. I did. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, good. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

He thought I was crazy. 

They came back to us and said, "Okay, look, there's no one interested in doing this. We will guarantee that you are the first one that will be aired." We didn't know then it'd be after the Super Bowl, that's a whole nother story how that came about. We're going to film yours first. We're going to use yours to attract other companies and we're going to film the whole first season first before yours even airs. I thought, "Okay. They might make everybody else look bad, but they're not going to get any other companies unless they make us look really good." I decided to go ahead with it. It turned out great. It did things for the company that we didn't even imagine. 

I mean we were having a hard time hiring people. Who wants to go work for a garbage company. At the time you remember the Sopranos was out there. It was a show, so everybody thought we were part of the mafia or something. We were really having a hard time hiring people at all levels of the organization. I mean, it's a big company. You need all kinds of engineers, accountants, you need all kinds of people. Not just drivers and mechanics, which you need those too. 

It was unbelievable. We had to set up a whole queue when you dialed into our company. If you're calling because you want a job because you saw Waste Management push one. I'm sorry Undercover Boss. If you saw Undercover Boss and now you want to become a customer, push two. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It blew up. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

It blew up. It was unbelievably good. We didn't get paid anything for doing it, but it had enormous benefits for the company. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's fun. Where does your faith factor into all of this work that you do in all these year? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

All over it. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Tell me more. 

I mean, I can see it, I can feel it. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yeah. Let me tell you a personal story that is still a little hard to tell, but it will sort of shape this discussion. My wife and I, we've been married 42 years. Our first child, named Linley, when she was born she was born totally normal. We brought her home from the hospital and as soon as we got her home after her feeding, she was in distress. She was not a happy camper. Something was wrong. My wife talked to her mom and her mom reminded her that my wife, Dare, had been intolerant to lactose as an infant. She said, "Look, just put her on some soy formula. I'm sure she'll be fine." We did that, that solved the problem. She was great, very happy sleeping. We took her in for her two month checkup and the pediatrician said, "Yeah. That's got to be what it is, but just to make sure I'm going to send you down to the medical center," we were living in Houston, "Let's have some tests run and just make sure that's all that's going on." 

We did that. Unfortunately, we got with a doctor who had never done this test on a little two month old, he'd always done it on adults. He mistakenly blew a bunch of air into her stomach that caused her to throw up and aspirate. She was without oxygen for an extended period of time. Long story short, she was in intensive care for about four months. Also, all the medication that they gave her and the lack of oxygen damaged her kidneys and her liver. She was a mess. They said, "She's not going to make it. You might want to just take her home and let her die peacefully at home." We did that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Oh my gosh. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

We went and made funeral arrangements and got prepared. Good news from that, she's now 37. Severely handicapped. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Mental incapacities, physical impairments. She's in a wheelchair. She's been in intensive care about every four years, on average, of her life with life threatening, not going to make it situation. Then somehow through God's blessing, she makes it through that. What's interesting about that is when it happened, I was very angry at God. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'll bet. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I didn't lose my faith, but I said, "God, you got the wrong guy." 

Bill Hendricks: 

How could you let this happen? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yeah. Why? This is not fair. I give him my spiritual resume. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I've done everything you- 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I've been leading bible studies since high school. I share my faith at work. I never missed church here. Here's all my things. 

Bill Hendricks: 

My pedigree. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yeah, exactly. Like he doesn't know. God used that to totally change me, because I didn't realize it, but all these attributes that I've been telling you that sound like they're good things, like working real hard ... I thought I could outwork anyone and get anything, get anywhere I wanted to be, I was in control. It's kind of sick, it was all about me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. It's your Philippians three list. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Exactly. It was all about me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

All the reasons why God should be really impressed with me. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yes. I hope your listeners will see that your worst tragedies, the things that you go through, God wants to use those in a powerful way if we will just let him. He showed me that I was not in control. It was about him and his plan, not my plan that I had for my daughter. My anger slowly turned into guilt. I started thinking, "Well, this must have happened because I did something. This is the consequence of some sin I did." It couldn't have been my daughter, she hadn't been around. She's not around long enough to have done it. 

I was reading in the gospel of John one morning and it's the story where Jesus is walking with some of the disciples and they come upon the blind man. Who sinned to cause this? This man or his parents. I go, "That's my question. That's it. Where's the answer?" Jesus said, "It wasn't this man's sin or his parents, it's so that the works of God could be shown through him." That was just a weight lifted off my heart. I said, "Okay. I get it. You're up to something with Linley, I'm letting go of control." I already had her being a cheerleader and married and I already had grandkids. I had it all planned. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You had a script all written. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

He said, "Nope. I've got a whole different plan. You just got to trust me." God used that to teach me empathy, because I had no empathy for others. Zero. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It was a severe mercy. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yes. That has served me well. I think, because of that now I care for people like I never did before. He used that in a powerful way in my life. Totally changed me. Totally. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well I'm a huge believer, particularly the older I get, in the value of brokenness. I often get asked by boards, both of churches and businesses who are getting ready to hire somebody, "Bill, what do you think we should ask this candidate that we have?" A question that I've been encouraging boards to ask is ask the person what's the worst adversity you've ever been through and how did you respond and what did you take away from it. If they've been through something severe like that ... 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I think everybody has something. They're going to if they haven't. 

Bill Hendricks: 

They're going to, but let's say they've already been through that, you'll find out a lot about their character. If they haven't yet that's not grounds to say, "Well, then we're not going to hire you." You just have to hire them knowing it could happen on your watch, and if it does, their heart will be tested and you will find out who you hired. I'm with you. I believe God always is up for our highest good. Even the tragic things that happen seemingly to us, he wants to use those things in some redemptive way in our lives. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I totally agree. I haven't mastered any of this that we're talking about, so I hope none of your listeners think I'm here trying to say, look at me, I'm the expert in servant leadership, empathy or any of this. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I get you. No, I get it. You've just been through your experience. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I've gotten past the first step of the 12 step program. I know I got a problem. I am getting better at it, but I'm not a master. I've studied this a lot in the Bible and what's fascinating to me is when you look at the Apostle Paul, how many bad situations that he's in. I think what would be my reaction if Jesus appeared to me and said, "Okay. Look, here's what I'm going to do with your life. You're going to help build the church. You're going to be my man for the Gentiles. Right. You're going to be the guy." 

Bill Hendricks: 

Great. I'm all in. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I'm ready. Yeah. Show me the hill, let's go attack it. I'm ready to go. I'm one of those type A driven people. Then the next thing, I'm in prison. 

Bill Hendricks: 

The fine print, you're in prison. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Or in chains or whatever. I'd be complaining. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I didn't sign in for this. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Whining and saying, "Wait, this isn't what you told me," that'd been my reaction. But if we look at Paul, Paul has taught me that when you're in those situations like my daughter, and now I understand it, looking back on it, I didn't handle it well when I was going through it. Don't ask why. Ask what. What are you trying to teach me? Or what are you trying to do through this situation to either help me or help others around me to learn to be more Christ-like. What are you trying to teach me? Instead of saying why and moaning and groaning about it, ask what. What is it that you want me to do here? This is not what I was planning, but I trust you. You're in control. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's good. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

You've done something here. Look for the what rather than the why. The way doesn't matter. The why is it's because that's what God's plan is. Okay? That's the why. So get over it. You're not going to understand it completely till you get there. I don't fully understand everything God was doing through my daughter's situation, but I trust it. I've seen the good that's come out of it. I mean, she is an inspiration to me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's wonderful. Well, we've got about five minutes left. I know that you do a lot of mentoring. As you said at the beginning, you really encourage others to do mentoring. On that thought, I'm just curious, what's your encouragement to people who mentoring sounds like a really intimidating thing to them. They're like, "I don't have anything to offer. I'm not wise." I'm not this-" 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Everybody has something to offer. 

Bill Hendricks: 

How do they get that going? Where can they engage? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I think everybody should have a mentor and everybody should be a mentor. Like I say, I'm not saying I was doing it well, but I was trying to do it when I was in high school. I was trying to do it when I was in college. There's always somebody out there that can benefit from the experiences that you've been through. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's really from your life experience. It's not that I know all these answers to all these questions. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

No. Like I say, the best mentors I've had, they didn't even know my business, but they knew how to ask the right ... They asked probing questions that helped me figure out what the right answer was. You don't have to know their business better. It's always better to have somebody who's mentoring you that maybe they're a little more mature in their faith. If it's a business situation, they've got more life experiences that they can draw upon as analogies. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Exactly. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

But then what I'm really into now, I mean I'm so focused on this, is it's a subset of mentoring that I call discipleship. That is actually where you pour into people. I take on, on average, about four men a year. I meet with them individually, not as a group, once a week for about an hour for a year. Before we begin, they have to be willing and be wanting to become a disciple maker themselves. They have to agree on the front end, I will pour into them for a year, but when they graduate, when I determine that they're ready to go, they now have to go do the same to somebody else. Okay? 

It's really what we're called to do that most people think it's the pastor's job to do. But if you go look in Ephesians 4:11 it says the pastors are there and the teachers are there to equip us to go build up the body of Christ. 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

That's our job. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Right. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I always thought it was the pastor's job. When you go look at the great commission, in Matthew 28, I always thought that's the pastor job. No, that's our job. That's all of our jobs. If that's our job, we ought to all be able to point to our children, grandchildren, talking about spiritually not physical children, grandchildren, great grandchildren. Who have we poured into and matured them enough where they're capable of going and pouring into somebody and so on and so on. That is what we're called to do. That's what Jesus modeled. If you say that you're a follower of Christ you're supposed to be a fisherman, of men, so where your fish? Where are your children? Where are your grandchildren. 

I've actually discovered that there are a ton of pastors that have not been discipled. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, exactly right. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I've discipled pastors and they've now put that program in place at their church and it is just taking off. I do it with individuals. I encourage everyone to do it. Just for your listeners to know, DTS is now putting in place a discipleship program. I encourage people to look into it, take it on. It is so rewarding. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're working with some students, right? 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Yes. I take on students, a group of students, but there's others. I think we've already put several hundred through the program just in the last year and a half I think. Yeah. I encourage students and others to look into this. I get a lot out of helping people progress in their business career, but you want to really feel like you've made an impact on the kingdom, go help somebody progress in their faith, where they can then carry out what we've been commanded to do that's make disciples. I look forward to showing up in heaven and seeing great grandchildren, great, great, great grandchildren. That's what I'm excited. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Whole crowd of people that you helped. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

Exactly. The Holy Spirit working through me, I'm not taking credit for it, but the Holy Spirit puts people ... I've got a waiting list. I don't go search for them, I pray and here they come. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's fantastic. 

Larry O'Donnell: 

I encourage everyone to do it. It is so rewarding. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, we need to raise up an army of guys like you, Larry. Thank you for doing that. I just want to thank you for sort of the advertisement, if you will, about the discipleship program that we do have here at the seminary. I just want to point out, this is not some seasoned pastor who's been out there preaching for 20, 30 years, pouring into seminarians, this is a businessman who has walked with Christ his whole life and out of that experience in the warp and woof of real life is able to speak into the lives of people that now want to go out and pastor other people. 

Larry, thank you for being with us. I want to thank you for being with us on The Table Podcast as well. For the Table podcast, again, I'm Bill Hendricks. We look forward to seeing you next time.