Discipleship Curriculum

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And our topic today is probably one of the most basic things that churches do, which is this combination of evangelism and discipleship. And I have with me on my left and right, two Veterans of Foreign Wars. People who've been in the ministry for a long time, who have given of themselves to serve the Lord and now are in a different phase of life and with a ministry that has grown out of that experience. 

So to my left is Ken Horton, who's President of Ministry Catalyst. And to my right is John Tolson, who works with a group called The Tolson Group that works in evangelism and discipleship. And so we're just going to talk about really the pursuit that every Christian should have, which is to grow in maturity and in wisdom and the knowledge of the Lord as God walks alongside them in their spiritual life. So I always ask, you guys are kind of your initial effort with us. I always ask the same question to open with a group of people. And that is, what do nice guys like you do getting in a gig like this? So Ken, I'll start with you. 

Ken Horton: 

Well, I trusted Christ 60 plus years ago. I understood the gospel, understood I was forgiven, going to heaven. Spent a number of years in a church that gave me a bunch of things to do and I did pretty good at them, but created an environment of uncertainty about just what it meant to enjoy being a Christian. And when I went to Auburn, God had already done some work, but I began to work through a process with Camps Crusade that let me take the first steps toward learning about living by faith. And that was a really critical part of my journey. Spent some time in the Air Force, which was critical for me to learn how to enjoy being with people that weren't Christians. And I think I've tell people I learned as much in my three years in the Air Force as I learned in my years at Dallas Seminary, about ministering to people who were going to be in environments with people that didn't know Jesus. 

Finished the time in the Air Force, came to Dallas Seminary, was involved in ministry here and have had decades long ministry in youth ministry as a senior pastor. And was involved as the chaplain of the TCU Football team for 20 years. 

John Tolson: 

Great. 

Ken Horton: 

And in that process I began to wrestle through some things about my own life, just that I was having a fruitful ministry but was not enjoying it nearly as much as I thought I would have. And as I wrestle through that, it dawned on me that you can do what God wants you to do. And if you're doing it in the flesh, it may be impressive to people and even encouraging to yourself on some level, but it's not going to be very joyful and it won't be pleasing to God. 

And so that process in my own heart began to move me in a direction to try to think through what it looked like to live in a posture of dependence on God so that I could actually enjoy the relationship that I had with Him since I was a child. And so our discipleship resources unpacking that process, how to begin by faith and live by faith in a way that your relationship with God is intentionally dependent and you're able to be involved with people in a way that allows you to stay focused on being a blessing to them rather than impressing them. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh wow. So I take it you were in Fort Worth for a long period of time? 

Ken Horton: 

I've been in Fort Worth since 1984. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

Wow. 

Darrell Bock: 

Very good. 

Ken Horton: 

I was in Greensboro before that where I met my wife. 

Darrell Bock: 

In Greensboro, North Carolina? 

Ken Horton: 

I was. Worked with a guy you knew there, David Kernel. 

Darrell Bock: 

David Kernel, sure. 

Ken Horton: 

You and I have a common ground there. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh wow. So Westminster Presbyterian? 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah, was there. 

John Tolson: 

Wow. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's where I did my internship. 

Ken Horton: 

That's where I met my wife, first night I was there. I had a rule- 

Darrell Bock: 

Small world. 

Ken Horton: 

I had a rule that I wasn't going to date any women in the church, 'cause I knew that could go sideways. And when I met her on the way home, I said, this is not going to end well. 

Darrell Bock: 

So much for that rule. 

Ken Horton: 

I'm pretty sure that one was- 

John Tolson: 

Great. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, yeah. That's a whole nother conversation, we'll pursue that process. 

John Tolson: 

I love it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Anyway. 

John Tolson: 

Beautiful. 

Darrell Bock: 

So John, how a nice guy like you get into a gig like this, tell us your story? 

John Tolson: 

Well, I was born in Ohio and my mom and dad divorced when I was two years old. And I never met my father and had no recollection with him. A stepfather came into my life when I was about seven. He had no idea how to be a father. I had a crazy uncle in Ohio who was a phenomenal athlete. And he showed me at a very young age how to shoot a basketball and throw a baseball. My now stepdad made fun of that. He said, "It's stupid, stupid to spend your time playing ball." 

The other little sight is that no one in my family had ever gone past the 10th grade in school. Good people, not necessarily followers of Jesus, but good people. But they were not highly motivated. They worked either on a ranch, a farm, steel mill. Nothing wrong with that, but they just weren't highly motivated. But something in me, hopefully I trust it, it was the Lord, was saying, "You got to break that chain." So I had an amazing opportunity. It's a whole nother session for us, the story of how this happened. But I had a chance to go to school in Arizona to play basketball and baseball. My family moved to Florida when I was about the third or fourth grade. So I made it to college. When I graduated, I signed a contract to coach in a college in Mississippi that summer. And I had come to know Christ going to the 10th grade year in high school. And it was real. It was real, real, real. 

And anyway, my church in Florida was asking me to run this youth work that summer. And we had kids coming to Christ, right, left from all over the city. And I said to a friend, "I'm not sure if I'm supposed to coach." So he said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "I want to do this, I want to work with these students." And anyway, he said, "Why don't you go to seminary?" I said, "What's that?" He said, "Well, that's where you go if you want to be a preacher." I said, "I don't want to be a preacher, I just want to help kids know Christ and get in the scripture and live it out every day in their life." 

So anyway, I ended up going to seminary and then over the next 15 years worked with students in churches. And then when I was here in Dallas, back in the mid to late 70s, I had a question fall out of a folder that I had written down two years before. And the question said, literally fell out of a folder, I was looking for something. 

Darrell Bock: 

A folder? What in the world is that? 

John Tolson: 

Oh, it was a folder. I know I got one with me right here, baby. I'm big on folders. But anyway, the question I had written down a couple years before, "If you could do anything you wanted to do, knew you couldn't fail and money weren't a problem, what would you do?" So I started for a couple months writing down what was in my heart using the gifts God had given me, past experiences, needs that I saw around the country, et cetera. Anyway, out of all that, an incredible story, another session, I was able to go, a group of men asked my wife and I to come and our family to come to Houston and do what I had written on one piece of paper to summarize everything I'd written down for a couple months and they said, "If you'd like to come do what's on that paper, we'll take care of you." So I went to Houston for five years and was freed up. 

Darrell Bock: 

Houstonians are like that, you know? 

John Tolson: 

Huh? 

Darrell Bock: 

Houstonians are- 

John Tolson: 

I know, they're kind of let it rip and let roar. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, exactly right. I'm from Houston, so yeah. 

John Tolson: 

So I was able to do that and then a group in Orlando said, "Would you come and help us do that in Orlando, 'cause Orlando's getting ready to pop and we're trying to lay a base of leadership in the city as the growth comes." So we were there for 20 years and then about 20 years ago, a group of men here in Dallas said, "Would you come back to Dallas and do what you're doing in Orlando and what you did in Houston?" So basically what I do is help men come to know Christ, get them grounded into faith in the Book, and to train and equip them to replicate in others what I have done with them. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So I'm going to ask you to do some math. How long have you been in ministry, Ken? 

Ken Horton: 

1976. So what, 40 something years. 46 years. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, 46 years. That's good, you do that pretty quick. Yeah, he's doing the math, you got enough- 

Ken Horton: 

54. 

Darrell Bock: 

You don't have enough fingers and toes to get there, huh? 

John Tolson: 

Long time. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

Started in 68 and now it's 2022. 

Darrell Bock: 

So my point here is, is that you all have been seeking to minister to people and train them in the area's discipleship and growth for a long, long time, a lot of experience. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah, both of us have. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

So let me start here. And John, I'll start with you first. 

John Tolson: 

Sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

What do you see as the biggest obstacles that people have in their pursuit of the Lord? What gets in the way? 

John Tolson: 

Well, and I won't call this disciple making- 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

Replication, just their personal life ground. I think number one, they don't have the help that they need individually or in a more intimate, small setting to understand what God wants from them. Number one, what does He expect after you get your ticket punch? And then as a result of not knowing the big picture, they then don't have the hands-on help from somebody to guide them, lead them. 

I mean, I can put a person in a room that someone has built their life into and discipled them. And I can put another person who knows the Lord next to them who has not been exposed to somebody walking with them and discipling them. And I'm five minutes, only I can tell you which one has been discipled, which one hadn't. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

John Tolson: 

think there's a lack, well there's a lot of other reasons. I think people, because they haven't made that a priority in their life, they let everything distract them and pull away from them, et cetera. So those are a few things. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. And so I take it that what you're talking about here is pretty small group based, is that- 

John Tolson: 

Actually, I'll mention the priorities in a little bit when we get to that point, but- 

Darrell Bock: 

Sure. 

John Tolson: 

I think every person that knows Christ ought to be in a little huddle or a core with three or four people that are encouraging one another to follow Christ and live the faith out, but the discipling we worked on is one-on-one. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

So people are- 

Darrell Bock: 

It's very small group? 

John Tolson: 

Very small. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, very good. So Ken, I mean he's mentioned some of the things that get in the way and one of the things is they don't get the big picture. I think the question I want to ask you, because we're talking about evangelism and discipleship, and I'm just going to throw this out there and get your reaction. I often say that we tend to share the gospel starting from Genesis three, and we need to share the gospel starting from Genesis one. And the point that I want to make is, is if a person doesn't understand who they're designed to be in the way in which God has made them, and we just start with the sin story, we have missed actually where God is planning to take them on the other end of the salvation decision. If I can cast it that way, what do you think? 

Ken Horton: 

Our first session is about how to begin a relationship with Christ. And the first point is that you have a purpose, Genesis one and two. And that purpose is to enjoy intimate fellowship with God in this life and for all eternity. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Ken Horton: 

And so that purpose shapes the perspective of what God wants to do in your life. 

Darrell Bock: 

So I like to say the church gets what it pays for when it shares the gospel, and so if I share the gospel in such a way that I make it sound like it's an insurance policy about not going to somewhere- 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. And that's very warm and for a very long time and very uncomfortable, that once that person checks that box, I think they're done. 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

But if you present the gospel in the way in which it's offered, which is it is the restoration of something of a relationship you were designed to have- 

Ken Horton: 

And you were created for eternity from the beginning. 

Darrell Bock: 

With this in mind. 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly, right. That's really the best starting point to have in thinking about. So I guess the question that that raises is, as we think about sharing with people, and this is a question that I raise because I think in the pluralistic environment that we live in. People are hearing all kinds of voices and choices. Now I'm thinking about people outside the church. So people who've never darkened the door of a church and they're trying to make their life to, "What's the point in my life?" Et cetera. I that's very dislocating. I compare it to a bazaar, a Middle Eastern bazaar that has a lot of booze or a lot of station- It's like a mall. And I say some of the booze are pretty bizarre, that you've got this tension that you're dealing with here. 

And so all those voices, it's like all this static coming at you trying to make sense out of what your life is. And people will use language outside the church, "I'm trying to find myself." I'm going, "Well, of course you're trying to find myself." 

John Tolson: 

Most people go to Aspen to find themselves. I don't know why they go up there. 

Darrell Bock: 

So there's this sense of dislocation. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I think one of the ways into thinking about the gospel for people today is the idea that when you think about a relationship with God, that will give you a location and a sense of who you are. 

Ken Horton: 

And you've got a problem. 

John Tolson: 

Sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Ken Horton: 

And if we don't put a proper emphasis on the problem, it's bad and it's even worse than bad because we can't fix it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly, right. 

Ken Horton: 

In a world that's basically universalist, everybody's going to go to heaven because God's too good to send anybody to hell, in that world if we don't make the problem clear, then the provision of God and Jesus Christ is not going to be nearly as convincing and clear as it needs to be. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, that's fair. So you move from Genesis one to Genesis three, if I can say it that way? 

Ken Horton: 

That's exactly right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the problem for sin. But you've got that Genesis one in the background because this is who you're designed to be. This gets in the way. You can't fix it yourself among other things that you're talking about. I always tell people that the gospel is about something that's in tension. It's about the challenge on the one hand, which is the problem. But it's also about the invitation to experiencing something that is far greater than the problem that you have if you'll step into it. And this gets to the enjoyment and the joy. 

This is why I remind people the gospel's called good news. It's called good news for a reason, not because we're going to park on the challenge, but because we're going to park on the solution. And so if we think about the gospel in that kind of way, and I'm glad we're talking about the gospel before we get to discipleship, the point that I'm trying to make is, and that I want your reaction to is that how we set up talking about the gospel sets up the person for the journey they have on the other end? 

Ken Horton: 

No question. And you begin that relationship with God by faith, and you continue that fellowship with God by faith. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Ken Horton: 

I mean there's great continuity and obviously a disciple that's not intentionally looking for opportunities to share the gospel with people is not involved in the fruitful discipleship God wants him to be a part of. 

Darrell Bock: 

And if you think about the language that we have, although it seems strange to someone who's just coming into understanding and hearing about this. You talk about a relationship with God, and of course people will go, "Well, okay, God, I can't see Him, I can't hug Him in one sense. So what does that look like? How can I talk about this ongoing thing with this being this person who I can't see, but who I sense who sense is around me?" I mean, most people have a sense that there's something more than what they can smell and touch and feel, et cetera. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah, sure. Well if you help them read through Romans one, without a Bible, you can still know that there's something greater than you behind it all. You may not be able to fill out or fill in the blanks, but that's obvious there. But I love what you're saying about Genesis one, I really, really think that's key. But then also with Ken, I rush right over the Genesis three and talk about the four things I call the fall out of the fall. We're unplugged from God, therefore we're unplugged from ourselves, therefore we are unplugged from people and everything on the planet has been thrown off kilter, so we have hurricanes, tsunamis, cancer, et cetera. And to me, if you don't have that backdrop, there's no way in the world you're going to understand what's going on today. 

Darrell Bock: 

So I mean, this is the groaning creation that Romans eight talks about. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah, sure. Right. 

Darrell Bock: 

It longs for redemption. And yet at a personal level, we need the redemption that God offers. And I think the backside of that conversation is the point that's already been made, which is, and you can't fix it yourself. So I mean, because most people, we have a thing in our culture that says, you got to be this great independent who can fix things on your... If you just want something bad enough and pursue it persistently enough, you can get there, that kind of thing. And it's just not true. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah, and I think Ken and I would both agree with this. I think that how you say what you say is really just as important as what you say. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh man, you're right. 

John Tolson: 

And I think we can just absolutely bomb out if we come with people beating them over the head with the Bible instead of caring for them and letting the Holy Spirit working in through us and then getting to the content. But I think the question that I've learned to ask over the years with people that seem like they're stiff arming God, but really most of them are most of those people, most people I think just don't have correct information. And so they throw the baby out with a bathwater. So here's the question I like to ask. I'll get to know a person, ask a little bit about their life and usually it's crumbling somewhere in their life. So here's the question, "Well, how's that working for you?" 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

It ain't working. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

"And so, if there was a solution, would you like one?" Well, who wouldn't? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

And then I start laying out who Christ is, what He did, why He did it, why we need it, how we get it. Boom. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now it is not very different than the conversation I have. I often say we have to translate our theology in a way that someone can understand. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then I'll be honest with you, I like to finesse the problem, okay? And the way I like to finesse the problem is to say, all right, so if I say the word sin, I call it the Star Wars defense. The Star Wars defense goes up, they don't hear sin, they hear sin and this phaser shield goes up, it's a mile high and 10 miles deep. And so how do you do that? But if I approach them and say something like, "Your life is dysfunctional." Which is your question, "Is it working for you?" Okay, that's even a better way to say it in many ways. "Is your life dysfunctional?" I get what I call a confession and then I joke, we have a Catholic moment because they confessed, all right? 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then I begin to explain to them that's part of what the Bible calls sin, that dysfunction is a product of sin. And I work my way to the biblical concept, but I've already gotten them to take a step in the direction of saying we need to have this conversation. So that's one of the ways that I think about translating our theology so it connects with someone at a place where they can connect with you've built that bridge and then you can go take the next steps. You're doing the same thing by the questions you're asking. 

John Tolson: 

Sure. 

Ken Horton: 

We often have people who will push back some because their definition of sin is, "I'm as bad as I could be, or I'm as bad as the worst person I know. I'm Adolf Hitler or whatever." 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm not that bad. 

Ken Horton: 

Not that bad. And I often say, "Look, if we could do a videotape of your life the next month, would you want your family to come to that?" Some of them said, "Well, yeah, not too bad." Said, "If we could add a track on that, that lets us see everything you think about for a month. How many people... And what about if we could take a track of every motivation for all the good things you do?" And by the time you get to that point you say, "That's how God sees everything." And God has a verdict. Not about you alone, but me and everybody else, we're sinful. 

Darrell Bock: 

We're all in the same boat. 

Ken Horton: 

We're in the same boat. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. And they'll say, "Well you Christians think that you're better than us." Oh no, no. 

John Tolson: 

We could be worse. 

Ken Horton: 

No, no, no, here's the deal, I am not better than anybody, but I am desperate enough to know that I don't need a religion. There's a thousand of them out there. I need a savior. And Jesus is the only savior I think the world's ever heard about. And so that's sort of the way we try to frame it. 

Darrell Bock: 

And can I- 

Ken Horton: 

In terms of the fact that we're all in the same boat and there's only one option because Jesus truly is the only savior the world is, certainly the only reason Savior of the world's ever heard about. 

Darrell Bock: 

The reason you need to savior is because you realize you can't save yourself. 

John Tolson: 

When you get to that John 14:06, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." People start twitching when you start saying it's exclusive, it's one way. Say, yep, that's right, but let's look at why? And then when it comes, like you said, the religions, I said, most people think, "Now you're really putting down those people." I'm putting them down, I'm worse than all of them. But I have an answer that they don't have. 

Ken Horton: 

One of the views of traveling around the world gets to talk to Buddhist and all kinds of folks. I was flying from Dharamshala where I was teaching nearby back to Delhi and a guy who was the athletic trainer at MIT was on the plane and sitting next to me and he had been at the Dharamshala compound for a month as a sabbatical. And my question to him, he was telling, I said, "Tell me about what you believe?" And I always do that and they talk a while. And then he brought about up about making progress toward the place of blessedness that he was hearing about. And I said, "You're 30 years old and in your view, you don't know how many times you've been on this drill." But I said, "Are you making progress? Are you closer at 30 this time than were in the times you can't remember before? How much progress are you making toward that end result so far in these 30 years?" And he says, "Not very good." I said, "That's why I couldn't believe what you believe." 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Ken Horton: 

"There would be no hope for me. And I need hope, and Jesus is the only hope I got." 

Darrell Bock: 

So- 

John Tolson: 

One of the questions- 

Darrell Bock: 

Go ahead. 

John Tolson: 

If I could just earn it for 10 seconds. One of the questions I often open up for people and present that I don't know well, I'll just, "Well tell me your faith journey. Just give me something." You can tell in two minutes if they know the Lord or don't know him from Donald Duck. I mean, boom. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Ken Horton: 

And if they come from another background, I say, "Tell me about that." 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Ken Horton: 

Let them talk to you about what they think. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm so glad y'all went here- 

John Tolson: 

And that opens it all up. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm so glad you went here because what we talk about regularly here as we talk about when you meet someone who likely hasn't walked into a church or doesn't have a church background, you don't even know what they know about Christianity. You want to get what I call a spiritual GPS reading on them. The only way you can get a spiritual GPS reading on them is to ask them questions and let them tell their story. 

John Tolson: 

Yep. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I say, when you first are engaging in evangelism, you have all the stuff you want to say to them. I said put your doctrinal meter on mute. 

John Tolson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

I said don't turn it off and you're not going to be able to do that anyway. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

I said but put it on mute and just listen for a while. Let them tell their story, let them tell you their background. I like to share the story of my grandmother-in-law. My grandmother-in-law, I like to joke, if you think a mother-in-law is a challenge, a grandmother-in-law is a real challenge. And now she did grow up in a Christian home, put it in quote. Dad was attended a Baptist church, et cetera. But he also was very, very abusive, it led to a divorce in the family, et cetera. Despite all his attendance at church. So for her, when she heard the word Christian, she heard the word hypocrite. 

John Tolson: 

Wow. Yep. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So that colored any discussion that we walked into about the Christian faith. When I discovered that, I changed the way I had the conversations with her because I knew I had this barrier that had been built that we had to work around and through in order to have those kinds of conversations. And so she was having trouble understanding why I was giving my life to what I was giving it to given what her experience was. Which to me, once I knew that that was part of that, well I think I get this now. 

And so that spiritual GPS reading tells you what they're thinking, what they know about Christianity. I tell people, if you want to know what someone thinks about Christianity's never darkened the door of the church, they have two sources and two sources only. The people they know who call themselves Christians and what they've heard in the culture. And I say, how many of you want your definition of Christianity to come from either of those two sources? 

John Tolson: 

Yeah, very good. That's great. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that's the challenge of the space. So getting to know someone and getting a read on where they're coming from and thinking about what in their story can build a bridge to what it is that God is offering them through the gospel, that's what you're looking for. 

John Tolson: 

Exactly. 

Ken Horton: 

In fact, in our discipleship process, 18 conversations, the conversations that young life navigators, everybody deals with, with a few others, we basically try to teach people a paradigm. And that is when somebody brings up something that has significance, not necessarily spiritual, affirm their willingness to talk about it, they're taking a risk to even talk about anything. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's a disclosure. 

Ken Horton: 

And then after you've affirmed it, you ask them a question. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Ken Horton: 

Get some understanding. It matters whether you're talking to a Buddhist or a Baptist. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Ken Horton: 

And once you've affirmed that and ask some questions, give just enough of a good answer to ask them another good question. Because our basic principle is that when somebody else is talking about what they think, they are learning more than when you're talking about what you think, even if it's the world's best answer. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's good. 

Ken Horton: 

Because they are actually processing it and something that they thought was clear and settled as they begin to talk about it, what was rock solid between the ears unravels out of the mouth and you don't jump on and prove the point, you gently give them a sort of a redo and let them keep talking. And so that whole thing of cultivating conversations, my experience having worked with doctors, lawyers, engineers, seminary students, pastors, all kind of people, people that are well-educated have been taught to answer questions and they struggle to ask good questions. 

John Tolson: 

And that's the key. 

Ken Horton: 

And so if you can ask good questions and have an affirming attitude, of course that works in parenting and marriage and every other relationship too. But that's a key part of these kinds of conversations. 

Darrell Bock: 

And what sometimes will happen because you've opened up that space and you've taken the initiative of letting them speak, at some point they'll turn around to you and say, "Well- 

Ken Horton: 

"What do you think?" 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly, right. Or, "Tell me your story?" 

John Tolson: 

That's right. And I think we have to remember even when we don't say the words exactly right, we use the wrong approach. I think if the heart's right and we're trying to get people to Jesus, I think the Lord works in and through all that to bring clarity. And I mean I've bungled it so many times in the person sitting and said, "I think I want that." "You do?" 

I was thinking about, well y'all were talking, I was thinking about a real good business man, buddy of mine over Mississippi. We're doing a lot of stuff over all over that state with discipling and reaching people and the black and white issue, which is tense at times. But my buddy has a farm and he said he was... He had to get this tree that had fallen down. And so he went into this little town nearby his farm and got three guys that said, "Yeah, I'll pay you if you'll come cut the tree up and get out of here." So he's felt compelled he said to share the gospel with him after they were all done. 

He said, "Y'all go sit down over here for a minute." So he said, "When you die you're going to heaven?" And these real old country boys, salt to the earth and this is what they said. One of them said, "You know how to get there?" One boy said, "I don't don't know, I don't know." Other one said, "I don't know, I don't want to know." Other one said, "I know I'll make it." He said, "How you'll make it?" "Well I did eat goats and sheep and I know I'm going to make it." What's that mean? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

So again, you got all kinds of stuff going out right there. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. Well again, it's the relational element and where we started is important here. And that is how you present the gospel tells people signals what they're in for. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

If they embrace the move. And so I've always react to the question, "If you died today, would you're going to heaven?" Because I think that's presenting the gospel as if it's a box that I check and I'm done. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I'm sitting here going, "No, you don't respond to the gospel to avoid a place, you respond to the gospel to gain a person." 

John Tolson: 

That's right. I agree with that. 

Darrell Bock: 

If you're going to gain a person and what better person to gain than the person who created you, who knows how you're made, who knows how you tick, et cetera. 

John Tolson: 

And I know Ken well enough and his material in his heart and his life, he's going to focus on Jesus. And I think when a person is introduced to this magnificent person, Jesus, there's something very magnetic the Lord does to pull that person to himself. And I want to just go back for 10 seconds to the way you started a while ago is if you go to Genesis one, and I jumped over to John from there. "Eternal life..." John 17:03 "That they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." It's a relationship. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

And it's not like any other relationship you ever have in your life. And I don't think people think that way, but when they are introduced to that thought, I can have a relationship with the God of the universe through His son. 

Ken Horton: 

And our first step after a person trust Christ is not to give them a list of things they got to do because they have spent their whole life living by the flesh. 

John Tolson: 

Right. 

Ken Horton: 

And you give people a list, they'll try to do that list, good list things you ought to do in the flesh and they're going to be off in the weeds spiritually. And so I try to say, how would you build a friendship with somebody you just met? Now the things we want them to do are very analogous to spending time in the word, prayer, spending time with people that know Jesus. I mean, but you frame those in relational terms and as a privilege, not as a list of things, an obligation to do. Because my experience was that they gave me the list and I did a pretty good job at it, but I wasn't enjoying it. And even once I began to understand living by faith, the reality is that if we're not intentionally depending on God, we are inevitably dependent on ourselves. And the thing that confused me was if I'm doing the right thing, how can it be wrong? 

John Tolson: 

How could it be wrong? 

Ken Horton: 

And yet, if you're doing the right thing in the flesh, the Bible says that sin, and it doesn't mean God's not able to use it in other people's lives, it just means you're not going to enjoy it. And the way you're doing it in the flesh, in my experience and I think in Philippians and other places, there are three key things that are indicators, sort of tales and gambling terms that you were doing into the flesh, and that is you're anxious. Because it sort of depends on, you probably ought to be anxious. You're angry because other people aren't lining up like you wanted to and you're arrogant if it goes well. And those are the three big things that Christians struggle with that can be experienced in the midst of all the religious activity that the church and many ministries tell them to do. But they're not going to experience the joy that God uses as a magnet to people that aren't Christians yet. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's great. 

John Tolson: 

That's very good. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you were tying loose threats. I want to go back and tie in a loose thread. 

John Tolson: 

Sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

Since you brought up John 17:03. I want to go back to Genesis one. Genesis one says that we're made in the image of God but we're made male and female. I want to get beyond the idea that salvation is just about me and my God. And because of the way Genesis one works, Genesis one says, we're created male and female. And that I like to remind people creation didn't get promoted from good to very good until we had both male and female in the image of God. They were designed to cooperate with one another so that they would subdue the earth well. The assignment was to fill the earth and to subdue it. So they were supposed to cooperate with one another in a way that made the world functional. That made the world function smooth. 

I like to joke that we're designed to be collaboration. We're designed to make the creation hum. We're designed to be hummers, and so we're supposed to help make creation hum. And then what sin does is it creates the dysfunction so it breaks up. So when you love God or properly related to him, it's no accident that the commandment that he says is the great commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbors like yourself because you were designed to contribute to the creation in that kind of a way. Or another way to say it is people say, "Well, I want to find love in the world. I want love in the world to be well." Wonderful goal. "Okay, how do you get there?" 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

You get there by what God provides and by understanding how you were made and how you were made to love well and that the spirit of God, this is the thing we haven't talked about yet, but it's important. What fixes you, if I can say that is not just the forgiveness that you receive but the spirit of God that indwells you. 

John Tolson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

That now gives you an enablement and a capability that you previously didn't have and couldn't have without him. 

John Tolson: 

Right. 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that's the source of the life that then feeds into the discipleship. 

Ken Horton: 

And the genesis is one passage is where all these gender issues have to be addressed because it's diversity- 

John Tolson: 

Exactly. 

Ken Horton: 

Let us make man in our image embracing unity. 

John Tolson: 

Right. 

Ken Horton: 

Unleashing creativity. And that's true in a marriage, that's true in the church, that's true... 

Darrell Bock: 

In the workplace. 

Ken Horton: 

That is the fingerprint of God and all creation, diversity, embracing unity, unleashing creativity. 

John Tolson: 

That's great. 

Ken Horton: 

And that really is foundational to the fruitful ministry God's called us to. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's foundational to virtually every relationship that we're ever in. 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so, you talked about the abundance of the life and you can try and do the right thing, but you don't have that sense of abundance and joy that it comes with it. And the reason is because you're still disconnected, you're still disconnected to the walking relationship with God that you need to have. Our time is flying. I mean, I'm looking at the clock and we- 

John Tolson: 

Are we having fun yet? 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm having so much good time. But we've talked all about evangelism and we've barely, we haven't barely touched on discipleship. So in the time that we have left lets dump as much on the discipleship side as we can before we have to wrap up. 

So let me talk about that. So someone comes to the Lord, they're walking in. You've got this mentoring, this side by side. I'm assuming that part of the principle of mentoring is the modeling that's offered to someone about the journey as- 

Ken Horton: 

It's the foundation. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. 

Ken Horton: 

Its the foundation. 

Darrell Bock: 

Sometimes call it modeling, some people call it mentoring depending on how you set it up. Sometimes it seemed, well you have more experience than I do, so I need to think about who you are. Sometimes it's done as modeling. We're just going to walk side by side as brothers, however that works. So what's on the other side? What's the discipleship like? 

John Tolson: 

Well, Ken's older than I am, so I'm going to let him go first. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. All right. That was gracious. 

Ken Horton: 

Well, our approach is basically we want to help a person learn how to begin a relationship with Christ, live by faith, we call it living independence mode. And that is a reflection of confidence in the word, it's a reflection of security and identity. And if a person is intentionally depending on God, he's going to be in a position where he's able to enjoy what God's prepared for him. Ephesians 2:89 says, "We're saved by grace, not by works, no man can boast." But the very next verse, it says that we're workmanship creating in Christ Jesus to do good works. And from my perspective, we have nothing to boast about in terms of the ministry. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Ken Horton: 

And because He gets the credit in us, He gets the credit in our circumstances and the Holy Spirit's what empowers us. So it's faith from start to finish and then the rest of our material is how do you strengthen that pattern of living by faith in all these other dimensions of life that people shrug with? How do you make decisions? How do you enjoy your shape? How do you study the scripture? How do you pray? Those kinds of things, all of which can contribute to it if done by faith, fuel a life that is both pleasing to God and influential and fruitful with people. 

Darrell Bock: 

And another corporate aside while you are in Ephesians. And that is, if you ask what's the first good work that gets defined by Ephesians two after Ephesians 02:10, it's 11 to 22. It's the idea that God has taken people who are formally estranged, Jew and gentile who did not get along and put them together in a reconciled relationship, not only with God but with each other. And so if you pursue in the context of love, this attempt to live out a life that is pursuing the best for people and the reconciliation for people, et cetera, you're right smack in the middle of what God is about. 

John Tolson: 

Right in the middle of it. 

Ken Horton: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I think that's important because one of the things that I think we struggle with in the church, at least in America, is we have a very privatized faith. We tend to want to walk alone, we tend to want to walk in a way where it's just about me and my God, I'm not thinking about other people. We don't think corporately, naturally. And so we have to develop that muscle because that muscle wasn't developed by our culture. 

John Tolson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

So it's thinking through those corporate dimensions of what's going on. So I have one other thought real quick and that is this. It seems to me that the discipleship has, if I can say it this way, three elements, your relationship with God, your connection to God's people and your interaction with God's revelation and His word. So there're probably more things than that, but that seems to me those are pretty good. So your relationship with God is going to involve you with prayer and your walk with God, your talk with God, et cetera. Your relationship to God's people is going to put you in a community that you need to be functioning in. And your commitment to God's word is what feeds you, what helps to keep you alive with the sustenance of the spirit that's inside of you in order to walk. Now am I missing anything? 

Ken Horton: 

I'd say that what we started talking about is that we are here as ambassadors of Christ to share the gospel. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

Ken Horton: 

And so, if we aren't really focusing on that relationship, and most Christians do not intentionally build relationships with folks that aren't Christians. And if you don't do it intentionally, it won't happen. So I just think that that's a key part. 

Darrell Bock: 

So there's a missional element? 

Ken Horton: 

There's a mission and if you miss the missional element- 

Darrell Bock: 

You're missing out on- 

Ken Horton: 

You're missing out on the great commission, in order for a person to need to be baptized, they got to trust Christ and you're back to act one. 

Darrell Bock: 

So if I can say it this way, there's the personal nurture that those three things that I initially mentioned, but then there's the assignment that God gives us, the missional call that we have for why we are, who we are and what we're supposed to be about and the way we're supposed to think about engaging with people and really, I like to joke, the Great Commission and the Great Commandment are great because they're great and which means they keep us focused. 

Ken Horton: 

And it's not just sharing the gospel, it's investing in people so that they're prepared to be multiplied. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's why I mentioned the Great Commandment because the Great Commandment is to love people, to care for them, to be engaged with them. And that love is exceptional. That love is not just to love for the people who like us, what makes it exceptional, the reason Jesus says we're supposed to be different than everybody else is because we have a love element that we're offering to people who don't normally get it and that's your enemy. And that that's the hard part. 

Ken Horton: 

I'm sure John's, the people in the military who were the most hostile, who would say awful things to me because I wasn't doing what they were doing. When I found out their daughter was in the hospital and I said, "Tell me about your daughter. Can I pray?" 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Ken Horton: 

Oftentimes the people most hostile are people God's already working on, he's already drawn them to Christ. 

John Tolson: 

I agree. 

Ken Horton: 

But my heart, I did lots of ministry, I was producing few multipliers. And so I've spent the last number of years trying for myself and for other pastors and for lay people, you don't have to go to seminary to have this much fun, I tell guys I wanted to give them a resource that would give them an opportunity to be intentionally involved in both evangelism and launching what we call launching multipliers. Because I think that's at the heart of the mission we have. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep, that's the assignment. 

John Tolson: 

How much time I have left? 

Darrell Bock: 

No, go for it. You got a couple minutes. 

John Tolson: 

Okay. Can we go over it all? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, we can splice and dice. 

John Tolson: 

Well, I think the first thing, and again Ken and I are so much on the same page here. I think the reason we disciple is because that's what Jesus said to do. Matthew 28, "Go therefore and make- 

Darrell Bock: 

That's part of the Great Commission. 

John Tolson: 

"Or as you are going, go back." 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

John Tolson: 

And nobody on the mountain, when Jesus said that, none of the disciples raised their hand and say, "What are you talking about?" They knew what he was talking about. They had had it done to them. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

John Tolson: 

So that's the first thing. Second thing, as a lot of people I don't think know we do, because we've been around a while, we learned this stuff. But it was a command, it wasn't a suggestion. It was the imperative. I believe Jesus' strategy to change the planet today and tomorrow is making disciples who make disciples who make disciples. But the question then is, what does it mean to make disciples? And what is one? And Ken and I would both tell you probably 260 sometimes, all depends what translation in the New Testament you read, the word disciples is used, the word Christians used three times. 

So if you do your due diligence through all the discovery in a funnel out the bomb funnel dropped three things it means, a disciple is a learner. And it's one of my great impactors on my life said, "True learning biblically speaking only happens when it changes my life." So just because I got the information doesn't mean it's changing me. My head's packed, but my life's not changing. Number two, it's a follower and the demands of following are very challenging. But the third part is where the church in our country has missed it. For the most part, it's reproducing. 

And so if I were to put in a statement succinctly what I have for my life and others to do this, my desire is to live by his priorities and to spend my life reproducing those priorities and the lives of others who were reproduce in others. And the priorities are simply, you mentioned already, Matthew 22, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength." Second commandment, like the first, "Love your neighbors like yourself." So I feel there, love God, love Christ, all the stuff you need to make it sizzle, the word, prayer, worship, all that stuff. I think a lot of evangelicals miss the second one though. He says, "Love your neighbor as..." It's a simile, like you love yourself. So what if I don't like me? It's going to hurt me caring for my wife, my kids, or anybody else. So we call the second one a commitment to loving yourself. 

Now here's the what's behind that. I'll only love someone else to the degree I love myself and I'll only love myself to the degree I know how much God loves me. And so therefore, if I get that right, then I can begin off of that basis to develop, take care of myself physically, mentally, socially, and emotionally. Luke 2:52, same way Jesus went. And then the third priorities of commitment to other believers. Look at John 17. Francis Schaeffer taught me this years ago. He said, "John 17, If we are not one as followers of Christ individually with other people, then we are going to be a bury and a detriment to people in the world knowing Christ." So the body of Christ. And number four, the people that don't know God from Donald Duck, they're lost. So those are the four things for 50 years in my own personal life I've tried to live by. And they would incorporate everything John's talking about. 

Darrell Bock: 

So just review it as a list. Just the list, give us the list. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah, the first priority is a personal progressive commitment to Jesus Christ, making sure you've got it, developing and growing it and make it sizzle. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

Number two is a personal commitment to love of myself. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

Love your neighbors, you love yourself. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

Number three, a personal commitment to the body of Christ, other believers. Number four, a personal commitment to the work of Christ and a lost world. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

And then under each one of those, there are a lot of specific areas and so forth. 

Darrell Bock: 

Sure. Yeah. Okay. 

John Tolson: 

So we're saying the same thing, we're just using different jumping points and so forth. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. But what I love about what's being said is how outward it is. 

John Tolson: 

Priority ones is going to go out. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

John Tolson: 

If you get one and get that humming, as we would both know, it's how you look at you, how you look at others and caring about people that don't know anything about- 

Darrell Bock: 

I used to say that the arc of life that most of us have to live is we start with arrow in ourselves, because we're the center of the world. And then God is doing this, pointed outwards. Outwards and upwards. And that there's this little ethic, what I call the ethical triangle. There's this triangle that gets admitted about how the way I relate to God is supposed to impact the way I'm relating to others. And then the way I like to say this for evangelism, I like to play with John 03:16 and shorten it and say it this way. "God so loved the world that he gave..." End of verse. And so the point is- 

John Tolson: 

That's great. 

Darrell Bock: 

The point is, and you think about the world that God is loving, it's not an attractive world. 

John Tolson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's not a positive world. It's the world with everything that we know about it is wrong. But the way He gets there is that He gave. And then we come back to something that you mentioned earlier, John, which is the tone that we use is as important as the content that we have. And its that outwardness is the draw. 

Ken Horton: 

And we both do one-on-one discipleship because I'm convinced that people need to have an environment where they can ask their questions, where they can be honest. And it is more time intensive, but if you want to equip somebody to do something with other people, one-on-one's the simplest relationship. And it's worth my time having done lots of group things. I do group things too. I want to help people make incremental progress toward maturity as much as possible. But I think the intentional preparation of multipliers as a 71 year old, I don't have time to not make the most of my time. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. Well, I want to thank you guys for coming in. 

John Tolson: 

Hey, we both have more now. 

Darrell Bock: 

I know. I know. Think of this as part one. 

John Tolson: 

That'd be great. I would love that. 

Darrell Bock: 

Because this is a good conversation, an important conversation. It's a conversation the church needs and the whole idea of being able to move from starting from ground zero to taking people to the full and abundant life is the calling of the church. 

John Tolson: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's the calling of everybody in the church. It's not just the calling of the pastor. 

John Tolson: 

No. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's not just the calling of the Parachurch ministries that reach out to people. 

John Tolson: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's the calling of every single one of us. And getting equipped to do that fully so that you're walking with God in the way that draws people is important. I'll close with this observation and that is that at least in most of the testimonies that I hear that come from people who did not grow up in a Christian home, so they didn't have it from their parents or whatever. The way this works goes something like this. At some point in their life they met a Christian who was authentic about their faith to one degree or another. 

John Tolson: 

Sure. Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you hear in the midst of that testimony, "I met so-and-so, whatever, whoever it is, and something about their life caught my attention." Something about their life caught my attention. You said that the begin word, and I was curious about what that was and that started on the journey. So sometimes we think it's our words that do it, but words may be the finisher, they may not be the starter. 

John Tolson: 

You got to let me say this. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. 

John Tolson: 

Someone said you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, but you can feed them salt and make them thirsty. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Tolson: 

That's what our life should do. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, interesting. Very good. 

We're called to be salt, we're called to be light. Right on that note, we're out of here. 

John Tolson: 

We're out of here. 

Darrell Bock: 

All right. Let me thank y'all for joining The Table and glad you're a part of this, I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And if you have an interest in The Table, go to voice.dts.edu. You can see other podcasts we do. We cover an array of topics Table. At The Table we discussed issues with God and culture. I like to say, I'm thinking in my head when I say that. We talk about anything and everything. So we're real pleased that you could join us and we hope you'll join us again soon.