The Death of Jesus and History

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at The Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And my guest today is Dr. Woodrow Kroll, who has embarked on an ambitious publication effort to discuss the events of the crucifixion. The intent has six books to it, right? Six books in the series, is that right? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Seven books. 

Darrell Bock: 

Seven books. Oh, okay. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Seven books. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm missing one here on my list. Let's see. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

You're right, we added one on the end. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, you added one on the end. Because the list I only have had six. But I was getting ready to ask you why not seven? Seven's the normal biblical number. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

There you go. 

Darrell Bock: 

So self-corrected. What a great deal that is. Let me just review the topics for people so they get a sense of the series as a whole, which Wipf and Stock is going to publish. And we're actually going to talk about the events associated with the book as opposed to the books themselves per se. But, Roman Crucifixion and the Death of Jesus, Watching Jesus Die, this is a look at the characters associated with the cross at Calvary. Probing the Trials, Crucifixion and Burial of Jesus. Although I'll have fun when we get the word trials in that book. And then, The Day Jesus Died: Identifying the date, day and time of Jesus' crucifixion. Walking with Jesus from the Upper Room to Joseph's Tomb, Tracing Jesus' Final Hours and What Jesus's Crucifixion Accomplished. That's book six. And since book seven isn't on my list, what's book seven about? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Book seven is Take up the Cross: Why you do it and how you do it. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, so it's application of all this. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

More practical theology than archeology. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, very good. Okay. Well, needless to say, this is a pretty extensive survey of the topic. So my standard question to someone who's on The Table for the first time is what's a good guy like you doing in a gig like this? How did you get here? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Well, I spent 23 years at Back to the Bible as their president and senior Bible teacher, and I retired in 2013. And immediately when you retire you have to find something else to do. And actually create a little project called the HELIOS Projects, to help untrained pastors in economically challenged countries, to have a Bible in Christian faith education right in their hands. When I finished that, I said, "Okay, Lord, I still have time on my hands." And I've always been interested in crucifixion. I've been researching it for probably 40 years. And I sat down and I said, "Okay, what do I want people to know about the cross and about crucifixion?" 

And basically the outline came out just like these six now seven books. And I started to write it and actually tried to put it in one book, two volumes of one book. And I have a friend who is a representative for authors and he said, "Nobody is going to buy an 1,850 page book." So we broke it down into these seven books and made a series on it. And Wipf and Stock was very interested in doing a series, which made it perfect for me because I had a lot of material to cover in more than one book. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, 1,800 pages is a lot. I've did a commentary that was a little slightly larger than that. Some people will buy it, but it takes a lot to get them there. So you made a wise choice. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

That's right. That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And you've already given a little bit of your background that you were president and senior Bible teacher at back to the Bible. And of course you worked in the Department of Religious Studies at Liberty University, so you bring a background to this area. And then I also see that you have the traditional view of Christian retirement, which means we need to look it up in a dictionary. Because most Christians when they retire, don't actually retire, they just shift emphasis. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

You know what I did retire. I traveled extensively for Back to the Bible. I've been to 113 countries preaching. And everywhere I went I would meet a pastor, who was doing the very best they could with what they had to work with. The problem of course was they had nothing to work with. And I promised God, if I ever was in a position to help these pastors, I would give them what God's been so gracious in giving me. And I was retired probably four or five days when God reminded me of that promise. And so I started the HELIOS Project and then from that onto this crucifixion project. 

Darrell Bock: 

So are all these volumes completed now? What's their status? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

They all are all written. Book one is out. Book two is at the publisher right now. I'm editing book three at this point, and book four will come in a month or two after that. 

Darrell Bock: 

I owe you a forward for book four, which I haven't done yet. So I wanted to know how pressing this was going to be. It appears this took you a while to do. How long did you actually work on this project of doing these seven books? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

It took nine years to write the seven books, and maybe 35 years before that in research. I own just about every book ever in print on the subject of crucifixion. Some of them are extremely helpful, some of them not so much, but they're good books. 

Darrell Bock: 

So a generic question, and that is when you look at the project as a whole, what do you feel like you gained from investing nine years and working on this? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

For me personally. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yes. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

I think I have a deeper, greater appreciation of what Jesus had to go through, not only on the cross, but in preparation for the cross. The series itself only goes from the upper room to Joseph's tomb, so I don't deal with the passion week. I actually don't deal with resurrection. It's all focused on that weekend, and what happened to Jesus on that weekend. 

Darrell Bock: 

So it starts with the upper room and then goes up through the crucifixion itself and the burial, is that basically where it starts. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

The burial. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So let's talk about this. Obviously, Roman crucifixion was a significant deal, not only because of what was involved in it, the actual pain and punishment of crucifixion, but also because of the role that it had in Roman society, and what they were trying to accomplish through it. So let's talk a little bit about that to start off with. I'm familiar with a little book called Crucifixion by Martin Hengel, which goes through in great detail the background of what was involved in crucifixion, how the Romans viewed it, the fact that Romans wouldn't allow Roman citizen to go through it, et cetera. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Best small book written on the subject. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's a brilliant little book and you can read it in an hour and a half. And it's just loaded with direct citations from all kinds of sources about what's going on with the crucifixion. But let's talk about that a little bit. Why did Rome crucify people? What was their intent in crucifying people? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Well, I think there were several. Obviously, it was a form of punishment that's a given. And it was punishment mainly for slaves, for the lower class people. Roman citizens could be crucified, but they had to be specific requirements before they were crucified. The other reason though, that they wanted to crucify people was a deterrent crime. If you watched a person being crucified, you would think twice about doing something that the Roman Empire didn't want you to do. So it was a deterrent. They would leave them on the cross sometimes for days until they finally expired. There are all kinds of incidents of carrion, and dogs, and other animals coming and nibbling away at the people who were on the cross. 

So it was punishment, it was a deterrent. They did it to shame the person, to dishonor that person's name and perhaps that person's family. I think a lot of Jesus' crucifixion had to do with shaming him, because he'd become popular. The religious elite in Jerusalem weren't his best friends, and as a result they wanted not only to be rid of him, they wanted to shame him in the process. So they had a variety of reasons why they might crucify a person. None of them justified, but all of them made sense to the Romans. 

Darrell Bock: 

What I say to my students is that the Romans believed, "You follow our law, we'll put you in order." And this is one of the ways that they did it. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

Was to show that if you cross us, you will end up on a cross and it will be a very gruesome death. It was known as the most horrific form of dying, I think, in the ancient world. And was intentionally designed to be very gruesome and very painful. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Cicero said it was the most pitiable of all deaths. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that's significant for the background. It's interesting. One of the things that we have to think about, when we think about this event is the Jewish role in leading up to crucifixion, and then the Roman responsibility for crucifixion, and that this was intentionally done. So I'm going to jump around in your series a little bit because on book three you talk about Probing the Trials, Crucifixion and burial of Jesus of Nazareth. And I like to say that the examination of the Jewish leadership before the examination for Pilate, technically speaking isn't a trial. It's an examination to gather evidence to take to Pilate. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so it's more like gathering a grand jury to seeing if you have a charge that you can take, as opposed to actually being a formal trial with a judge. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Right. And I think the role of Annas in this especially shows that it was more of an inquiry, it was more of a pretrial. When you get to the second part of the Caiaphas event, when they're actually at the Chamber of Hewn Stone. And they're formulating the charges, they're getting the 70 together, so they can actually take that charge to Pilate, they know they can't crucify Jesus. The Romans won't let them crucify anyone. So they have to get all their ducks in a row to make a case to Pilate. I think they were hoping that when they got Jesus to Pilate, there would be no trial at all. Pilate would simply rubber stamp what they had said about Jesus and away he would go. There must've been surprised when Pilates said, "Well, let me take a look at this myself." And as a result of that, that's where the trial took place in Roman custom. 

Darrell Bock: 

Very, very good. And I think it shows the transition and the difference. There are some interesting features in that Jewish examination. And you said that there comes a point in the second half of that time, where they're really focused on what they're going to bring to Jesus, what charge they're going to bring to Pilate about Jesus. And it's interesting to me, they kind of at least with Mark as any clue, they struggle to find exactly what they're going to do. They can't go to Pilate and say, "We believe Jesus is blaspheming our religion." Pilate's reaction to that would've been, "So." 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Big deal. 

Darrell Bock: 

"That's your business, that's not mine." So they had to take the religious concerns that they had and translate that into a political charge, which is what the synoptic gospels make transparent, particularly Luke when he talks about the kinds of things that were brought before Pilate about Jesus. But what's interesting about that move is, and I like to point this out to people, the person whose testimony is responsible for Jesus' death is Jesus's testimony himself. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

He's that committed to going to the cross. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And he didn't back off when he was at Pilate. He didn't answer a lot of the Sanhedrin questions, or Annas' questions, or Caiaphas' questions. I don't think he respected them as legitimate authorities. They were not doing the service to God that they were required to do, or they were expected to do. When he gets to Pilate though, he knows this is the Roman government officially appointed legate for this region, the prefect for this region. And he is dealing with a organized government at this point. So when it was simply religious in nature for Annas and Caiaphas. Now it is as you say political, it is now a charge against the government in which a government has some ability to actually make the charge, and set the punishment for the charge, and carry out the punishment. 

Darrell Bock: 

So let's talk about the difference because I think this is important. In the Jewish examination what the leadership asks about and focuses on is whether Jesus is the Christ. Now, this is both a religious charge and then in this environment it's also a political charge, because the Christ is a king. And in the Roman view of things, Rome appoints the kings for the Roman Empire. You don't get a self appointment, if I can put it that way. And so as a result, that's a challenge to Roman authority if Jesus is actually a Messiah that Rome didn't appoint. Now when they asked Jesus about this, Jesus gives the Jewish audience initially in the examination, gives them more than they bargain for. Because not only does he accept the title of Christ, but he says basically that he's going to go to the right hand of God and ride the clouds, which is a nice way of saying that, "You may put me on trial here, you may crucify me, but God's going to vindicate me one day. And one day I won't be the defendant. I'll be your judge." 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

I think it's interesting that for Caiaphas especially, he can't go to Pilate saying that Jesus blasphemed God. Pilate has done that himself. Pilate wouldn't care that Jesus blasphemed God. He can however go to the other religious Jews and make the case that Jesus is blaspheming God, because he did not deny that he would one day sit at the right hand of the Father, and come on the clouds and judge them. And that put him in a position that no Jew would ever allow another Jew to be in unless they were the Messiah. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's a tricky question because in some of the extra biblical material, you see contemplation of the possibility that someone might be at the right hand of God, but it's very clear dignitary figures or it's in very symbolic context. For example, in The Exagoge of Ezekiel, which is a second temple Jewish text, Moses has a dream and he's invited to sit on the thrones of God. Now, there's only one passage where thrones is plural in the Hebrew scripture, that's in Daniel seven. And so he's invited to sit on the thrones of heaven. And in the midst of doing that, Jethro interprets the dream by basically saying, "When God gave you the authority over the plagues, when you were speaking it was as good as God speaking." And this was a figurative way to present that kind of authority that Moses was yielding in the Exodus. And most people see The Exagoge as a midrash on Exodus 7:1, which is an interesting text because it says, as God is addressing Moses in his calling, "I will make you God to Pharaoh." 

That's actually how the Hebrew text reads, translations wimp out, "I will make you like God to Pharaoh." No, that's not the way the Hebrew reads, so that's an important text. And then a second example is Rabbi Akiva thought that David perhaps could sit at the right hand of God, but that got a retort from the sages. The sages are where the majority opinion is in Judaism, and it says, "How long will you profane the Shekinah?" So they didn't like that idea. But Akiva entertained it for David. And then the third example is the Son of man who sits with God in heaven and first Enoch, and has all kinds of authority that he's exercising in relationship to the judgment. 

But again, all these were, how can I say this? Parts of Jewish speculation at the time, they weren't adopted doctrines if you will. And this council is made up primarily of Sadducees, who did not like additions to the Hebrew scripture. In fact, they were committed to the Torah above everything else. And so they never would've tolerated these kinds of options that some were entertaining in Judaism. So the point is when Jesus replies saying, "Yes, I'm the Christ, and here's another thing you didn't count on. God's going to vindicate me, and then one day I'm going to come back as your judge." For them because they didn't believe that they thought that was blasphemy. And technically speaking if Jesus wasn't who claimed to be, they would be right. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

They would be, yes, certainly. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so that's the religious charge. And of course in Mark Caiaphas rips his clothes to show that blasphemy has been uttered and they render a judgment. And then they translate that charge when they go to Pilate and say, "Jesus has claimed to be a king of the Jews. And your job is to look after Caesar's interests, and to make sure that Caesar isn't dishonored. And Rome appoints the kings in the Roman Empire, you don't self proclaim yourself to be a king. You've got to do something about this." 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

When Jesus admits who he is, when he says, "I am going to be seated next to the Father on his right hand. I will be coming on the clouds." Immediately, Caiaphas says, "Well, you've heard the blasphemy. What other charges do we need?" 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

"We have all the evidence we need with that one charge." 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. And this makes the point I was making originally, which is the testimony that actually sent Jesus to the cross, that started the process was that remark that Jesus makes. Because they had failed previously to say, "Well, Jesus said he was going to destroy the temple in three days and raise it up. He's going to act against the temple." And they tried to do it that way as a disturbing the peace charge, and that didn't work. This is ironic, Jesus supplies the testimony that ultimately sends him to the cross. I think that's one of the most profound parts of the passion narrative, because it shows how committed Jesus was to doing the work that God had called him to do in dying for sin. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And at some point the silent lamb led to the slaughter, makes the admission that silent lambs don't make, and that is, "I am who you have claimed I am, and I can't go back on that." 

Darrell Bock: 

Fair enough. So this charge gets put into the political realm and Pilate upon examination, his initial reaction is, "Well, I don't see him doing anything worthy of death." I like to think about this from Pilate's perspective. He's a prefect of the powerful Roman Empire. He's got Jesus in front of him who's been presented as a king. But Jesus doesn't have an army around him, or anything that indicates any kind of power, any kind of threat to Rome. I think he initially looked at this and said, "Well, this is a Jewish dispute. I'm not quite sure what's going on here. And I certainly don't feel threatened by any of this. This is a Galilean Jewish teacher, preacher, and I don't feel-" And his initial response is, "What's the big deal?" 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

He wanted to dismiss it. 

Darrell Bock: 

He wanted to dismiss it. And then of course, they kept pressing him and basically said, "If you don't show yourself to be defending Caesar's interest, which is why you're here and is a part of your job description, like the central part of your job description, then you're not doing your job." 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And it wasn't until that charge that he would no longer be a friend of the emperor, that Pilate said, "Okay, I have to do something about this. I can't dismiss this anymore. I can't just shove it aside. If they're going to claim to the emperor that I'm not his friend, I'm going to lose everything." Lose his position, probably lose his life. He had to do something at that point. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. And then of course, the issues the opportunity for another out with Barabbas, on the premise that, "Well, this is such a notorious insurrectionist and then this teacher over here. Surely, surely that will get us out of the situation." And that didn't work, and so eventually he signed on. You made one other point that's important here, and that is that only Rome crucifies. The Jewish leadership had no ability to deliver the kind of sentence for the way they saw Jesus that they wanted. And there's another thing going on here that's important, which is why this discussion of the Jewish background versus the Roman background is important. 

I like to say to my students that this is actually a brilliant plan in some ways that the Jewish leadership has put together. Because in the midst of trying to get Jesus to Rome, if Rome crucifies Jesus, in the end they can say, "Look, all we did was bring him before the official Roman leadership and they did the deed. We were just being good Roman citizens in bringing Jesus to Pilate's attention." And so there's protection there, but there's also risk. Because had they brought Jesus before Pilate without a solid charge to get him to give a verdict, that would've been a bad result for the Jewish leadership. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Sure. Sure. Sure. And there are times it looks like Caiaphas is playing Pilate and Pilate is playing Caiaphas. They're really two pretty sly characters here, equally matched, I would think. And one of them is playing the Rome card to the Roman, and the other is playing the spiritual blasphemy card to the Jews. 

Darrell Bock: 

It is a very, very interesting exchange. And then of course, it's clear that Caiaphas and Pilate had an existing relationship, because every year that Pilate appoints the high priest, he appoints Caiaphas as the high priest. So another thing I like to say is, so Pilate had a choice. He could go with his instincts that something wasn't right here, and that Jesus didn't deserve what was being asked for from him to crucify Jesus. Or he could go with the gal he brought to the party, they had had this relationship. He was this expert in Jewish affairs, if you want to think about it that way. And so he eventually followed the lead of the pressure he was getting from a relationship that he had that existed, as opposed to this new one that was cast in front of him when Jesus shows up in front of him. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Yeah. These were two, I think, equally matched politicians. They wouldn't have hung up there as long as each of them did if they hadn't been. 

Darrell Bock: 

So let me go back to the contents of book two, where you talk about a cast of characters of Calvary's cross. I really like this part of the passion narrative. Because I think it shows what I call the array of responses that the crucifixion generates. It literally is a little microcosm of the array of responses that Jesus generates, and it's all revolving around how people are reacting to his death. So help me with that a little bit. Who are some of the key characters and what do they represent? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Anybody who is touched by the Savior at this weekend event is in book two, and I think they're 27 chapters, something like that. Because you start with Jesus, no one would be in this book if it weren't for the Lord. So everyone touches him and he touches them. The disciples are obviously there, Peter is there, Simon Cyrene is there, the daughters of Jerusalem are there. The ladies who came with Jesus from Galilee down and ministered to him, they're all there. And of course, Annas is there and Caiaphas is there, and just everybody. The Roman soldiers, the killing field soldiers, those who were adept at taking people's lives by crucifixion, who did the actual crucifixion, they were there. And of course the last chapter is Satan, because I think Satan had a pretty strong vested interest in what happened at Calvary. 

Darrell Bock: 

Fair enough. And they all represent a little bit of a different feel. For example, the women that you mentioned at the beginning who are in Luke, where Jesus says, "If they do this to the green wood, what will they do to the dead wood?" Which raises a question of there's a sense in which they're observing and there's a bit of sympathy and empathy for what's happening, but it's unclear... Well, what's clear is the injustice of what's taking place. In Luke Jesus' death is portrayed as an injustice, that Jesus wasn't guilty of the things he was crucified for. So there's that dimension of the equation. Then you've got the mockers, the people who mock Jesus. You have the debate between the thief on the cross who responds to Jesus and the one who doesn't. 

I even like to talk about the creation as a character in the story, because the creation reacts to the death of Jesus. You've got people who are just sitting and watching, they don't have any commitments, they're just observing what's going on. You've got the centurion who sees everything that happens, certainly the climactic figure in some ways of the crucifixion and says, "Surely this one was "dikaios " was righteous emphasizing. So you really get the array of responses to the crucifixion that really cover almost the entire spectrum of how someone might react to Jesus and his death. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And not only their responses, but the backgrounds each of these people bring, they are so, so different. You have the religious leaders of the day in Jerusalem, then you have the Roman leader of the day in Jerusalem or in Caesarea. And you have people from all over who are all touched by the same person, and touched in different ways because his ministry to each of these people was a bit different. When you get to that soldier, that centurion who makes the comment about the righteous man, I think you have hit the zenith there, even though there's a burial after that. 

I think you've hit the zenith there of the story, because here's a man who all his life was taught to follow the pagan gods of Rome, many of them. Follow the emperor, he was a god himself. Suddenly he sees all these things happening. He hears what Jesus has to say. And here's a man whose life is changed, flipped upside down immediately. He recognized something in Jesus he never saw before. And a lot of the other people around the mockers, and at least one of the bandits on the other side, they don't even see this in Jesus, but this man does. He knows this is someone special, "And I have to pay attention to this person." 

Darrell Bock: 

And of course, the term dikaios is interesting because it's a double entendre in and of itself. It means righteous on the one hand or just, so here's a guy up on a cross being crucified for a crime who is just, put that together. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you've got this confession that comes from this figure who's watched everything, including I think the reaction of the creation might've gotten his attention. And so responds accordingly. We're used to talking about it just simply from asking the question, "So what is Jesus doing up on the cross?" And of course the Christian answer is, "He is dying for sin." But I actually think one of the fascinating parts of this scene is the array of reactions, that Jesus generates, because it's no different than the array of reactions Jesus generates in general. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Sure. Sure. Sure. That he has brought to the foot of the cross just about every spectrum of society that you can think of. He's brought to the foot of the cross, rich and poor. He's brought to the foot of the cross male and female, bond and free, as Paul says. And he is the link to all these people. And the cross is where the connection is made to all these people. 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, in some ways, the most interesting volume, I think at least the most controverted volume, maybe that's the way to say it, is book four, which is The Day Jesus Died. You and I have had email exchanges about this book and identifying the date, the day, and the time. And of course, the problem that we have is that we're 2,000 plus years removed from this. We're dealing with witnesses, we're dealing with a section of timing that generally speaking the ancient world wasn't as precise about time as modern. I've got an iWatch here that keeps nuclear time. They weren't dealing with that. A sundial is a little bit of a way from that, and that kind of thing. So it raises all kinds of questions. So I think what I want to do with this book is to just lay out the options a little bit, and help people see what gets discussed, and then try and pull it together. Because despite the conversations that these topics generate, there is something that's central that shouldn't be missed, so let's do that, first of all. So what year are we talking about? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Well, if you're talking about the crucifixion itself, it all comes down to two options, I think, and that's AD 30 or AD 33. Boy, there are just really good scholars that come down on both sides of this. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

The arguments on both sides are really good arguments. And if I say I think it's AD 33 and you say 30, God bless you. 

Darrell Bock: 

Fair enough. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

It's really a tough issue. 

Darrell Bock: 

I actually don't remember how you decided this. Did you lean one way or the other? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

I did lean to 33, although I didn't say thus saith the Lord. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, that's good. I'm a 33 guy too. I actually think that one of the reasons that I think 33 makes sense is the text says that Pilate and Herod got along better after this. And there's a figure unnamed in the background, Sejanus, who was kind of- 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

... the Secretary of State for Rome during the time, if I can say it that way, who had passed away and had a reputation for being antisemitic. And so as a result with him being off the scene, Pilate's ability to get closer to Herod opened up to a degree. And that would've not been true in 30 and would've been true in 33. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And that's the very reason why I leaned to 33, because Sejanus he was doing fine as long as Tiberius was on the aisle of Capri. When Tiberius found out what Sejanus was doing, Sejanus is killed. Now Pilate's inside man in Rome is gone. And that's when the charge, "You're no friend of the emperor would've meant something to them." 

Darrell Bock: 

And there's an interesting background to that. Because Pilate had done some things that were particularly offensive to the Jewish community- 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

... within his prefecture, and Tiberius had rebuked him for it. So he already was kind of on a short leash, and needed to be careful about how he was handling affairs there. And of course, he eventually lost his prefecture by doing another offensive thing in relationship to Samaritans after the time Jesus was crucified. So we know he was being, how can you see this? He had an overseer who was very much overseeing what he was doing. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Yeah. He was being surveilled from Syria. 

Darrell Bock: 

There you go, that's a good way to say it. So that's the interesting one, that's one on which we agree. Let's go to one where we've discussed back and forth. And that is, so the last supper. Not so much the day. We agree on the day, the day of the crucifixion is a Friday. It's the day before a Sabbath, which means that you're going to have... It's also associated with a feast, so it's a sacred day, which leads into a Sabbath, which is also a sacred day. So you've got two sacred days in a row, which produces its own set of problems if you're a Jewish person trying to keep tabs of following the law. So you've got that environment. But the discussion around the Last Supper involves what feast and what is the discussion? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Well, the discussion is was this actually a pre Sabbath, pre feast dinner, or was it just an ordinary dinner of some sort? And then beyond that, I have a rather unique interpretation of that dinner. But if it was a genuine Seder meal, a genuine pre Sabbath meal. 

Darrell Bock: 

Passover Seder. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

It would then mean that you're looking at the Sabbath the next day, and therefore you're looking at the Synoptics account of events falling right into play. If it was something else, then John comes into play because he has a little different take on how these days play out, and what this particular meal was. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the trick here is not only the combination that you're dealing with Passover and Sabbath, but Passover itself moves into Unleavened Bread immediately. There's no break. So you've actually got a series I mentioned too, but you actually have a week long feast in which every day is regarded as a holy day. So once you enter that window, you're there for a while. And the day of preparation associated with the Passover, and this is how I resolve it. The day associated with the Passover is actually part of a sequence of several days. And you could be anywhere in that and refer to it as the day of preparation for the Passover, because the Passover holiday covers that in one sense that entire week, even though it's Passover and Unleavened Bread. That favors if you can say it this way the synoptic emphasis. 

What produces the Johannine in question, and then a question about whether there's a Passover meal is that John uses the phrase the preparation for the Passover. And that gets read in a very specific sense, not as the Passover week, somewhere in the Passover week, but actually the beginning of the Passover itself. And when you do that, then it looks like the Synoptics in John aren't quite on the same page. And then you make a choice and an explanation by saying, "Well, then Jesus did a meal that was so close to the Passover that it had Passover connotations, even though it wasn't a Passover meal." And I think that that resolves in favor of highlighting the Joanna chronology read in a particular way. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And actually that explanation wasn't all that attractive to me anyway, which is why I saw this meal, whatever it was, as a transition from Old Testament to New Testament, from the Passover meal to the last Supper. And therefore it didn't fit the category of just any old meal, just a regular dinner with his disciples. It had a specific purpose, if not the Passover meal itself, it had another specific purpose. 

Darrell Bock: 

I tell people regardless of how you take the view on this, it's a little bit like the way we handle the Christmas season. We have Christmas parties in our workplaces that aren't held on Christmas day, because of the overhang of what the holiday season is. And so you could have something like this. One thing that I'll be honest attracts me to the Passover view and the fact that Synoptics call this a Passover is, I think there's something subtly Christological going on here. Which is that Jesus has taken a specified Torah commanded liturgy, which is tied to the Exodus and the Passover- 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

... and has changed the symbolism that's involved in it. Well, he's added to the symbolism would be a better way to say it. He's added to the symbolism because his death is kind of a second salvific event in the history of Israel and connects to that. And then that raises the question, who has the right to do that? Who has the right to take Torah based teaching where all the symbolism is spelled out for you and alter it and attack it, that says something about who Jesus thinks he is. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Yeah. 20th century old tradition. He changes it overnight. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. And he's got to have the authority to do that, that's part of the point. And I like to make the point about the resurrection. The resurrection we tend to preach it on Easter as well. You walk out and you say He has risen, and of course what does the congregation say? He is risen indeed. And so we make it about the fact that there's an afterlife and there's life after death. All true, all absolutely true. But in many ways the most important thing that Easter represents is the vindication of God for everything that Jesus is claiming about himself. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Justification. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. So that's one that you and I've gone back and forth on and had some fun with. But I think the point that we're making in talking about this is either view makes sense, if I can say it that way, and either view is possible. It's two different ways to deal with a variety of things that the text is suggesting about the timing. We know it's close to the Passover. The Passover is overshadowing the symbolism of the event as a whole. It's being seen throughout what's happening at the end of the week, regardless of which of those views you take. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Let me go on. We're rapidly running out of time here. You have a book that says, Walking with Jesus from the Upper Room to Joseph's Tomb. Is this a work through some of the upper room discourse material and that kind of thing? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

It's actually more geographical than theological. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Basically, we start at the upper room and go through each of the steps, each of the stops if I could say it that way. Each of the stops of Jesus along the way, where they are in relation to the other, what is the meaning of this stop? And why did this one occur until you get to Joseph's tomb, which is the final stop. And as I say, I only deal with from the Upper Room to Joseph's Tomb in the series. So I don't go either before that or after that. 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. So this is the equivalent of, or like what is it the 14... What's the Catholic thing? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Right, the steps of the cross. 

Darrell Bock: 

Steps of the cross. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Stations of the cross. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

We don't have 14. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you basically deal with things like the fact that Simon of Cyrene had to bear the cross for Jesus and those kinds of things. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And things like how do we know that the upper room is where it's located, is that right? And whatever archeological evidence I can bring to bear on current day archeological evidence on what we know the location is. How do we know where Jesus prayed in the garden? What are the options in the Garden of Gethsemane? So it has a lot of archeological historical bend to it as well. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. It sounds pretty fascinating. I haven't seen that volume, so that's interesting. And then book six deals with What Jesus' Crucifixion Accomplished: The purpose and meaning of Jesus' crucifixion. There's a part of me that says, "Oh, everyone's going to know that." But what do you deal with there? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

I try to stay away from the traditional theological answers to that, redemption, justification, so on. And I said, "Okay, Satan has been at war with God for a long, long time." One of the things Jesus did was he ended the war, the long war against God by defeating Satan. Another thing is, it was at the cross that the personality we have. The what's the word I'm looking for? Our ability to do things. When we were created, we were the crown of God's creation. And we had a certain- 

Darrell Bock: 

Calling. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

... substance. I cannot come up with a word, but anyway, we were significant. There's my word. God created us the most significant thing in his creation, and he did it in the way he created us. He did it in the timing of our creation being the last created. But in the Garden of Eden, our significance was lost when we severed our relationship with God. What Jesus did on the cross was he reignited, reattached that relationship which was severed in the Garden of Eden. So that's one of the chapters in that book. And I've tried to look at things that Jesus did on the cross that may not show up immediately in the theology 101 textbooks. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Well, that's fascinating. I like to tell people that if you look at the evangelistic speeches in Acts, there isn't a whole lot about substitution in those speeches. It's all about who does the saving, and our connection to him and the reestablishment of who that relationship is with, et cetera, which I think is actually important. There's also another important thing that I think needs to be said here, and that is when we make the gospel just about the cross, the danger will be that we cut out the hope of the new life in the gospel message, and the hope of the new life is the point, at least a point about why Jesus went to the cross. 

He's clearing the decks and dealing with the barrier between humanity and God by dealing with sin, but that's not the end. It isn't just, "Oh, my sins are forgiven, and that's the end of it." No, my sins are forgiven so I can have experience of the new life, so the spirit can come in and change and transform me and make me into the person God designed me to be. I like to say we're made in God's image because we're made to image God. And when we do that well, we are able to reflect his character, and that's what we're called to do and be. And Jesus's death for sin, ending the battle with Satan. All those things are designed to take us to that place where that new life can come in, and we can experience what God designed us to experience. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

The cross represents old and new. The old is now passed, the new has come, the new creation, new life in Christ. This is why we walk away from the cross and we don't stay there. Because it was the end of our responsibility to God for our own sin, but it was also the beginning of a new life that is our responsibility now to live out. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I tell people, we don't share the gospel fully if we only talk about the cross because it's the new life that actually generates the hope that we have. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

That's correct. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I like to picture it as a baptism, and I'm going to be Baptist here, immersion, not sprinkling, get that weak stuff out of here. And if it's only about the cross, it's like going in for baptism under the water and never coming up. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

And never coming out. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. And you'd expire if you do that. So the text says, dead to sin, that's the cross part, alive to God, that's the new life and resurrection and the provision of the spirit part, and that whole thing makes up the gospel, 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

That's for sure. That is for sure. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, Woodrow, I really appreciate your taking your time to walk us through this. Book seven again is about what, we didn't cover that I should mention that before we close. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Take up the cross. It's our responsibility, how we take it up, how we deny ourselves, take up the cross and follow him. 

Darrell Bock: 

So it's the discipleship implications of the cross. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

It really is. It's more practical theology, discipleship. 

Darrell Bock: 

When do you hope all these volumes are out? 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

The hope is to do three a year. And if we do that, then it'll be, let's see, this is '23, the end of '24, beginning of '25. So it'd be the first quarter of '25 it should go on. 

Darrell Bock: 

Great. Well, this is obviously quite an assignment that you've undertaken and we've only briefly overview it, but you're being commended to work through this. I've looked at one of the volumes in detail. And one of the beauties of what you've done is you set out all the conversations that people are having, and all the discussions that rotate around it, but you delivered it at level that people can process and absorb. And you're probably right to have broken it up into seven separate steps, as opposed to making a person have what would be, I don't know. I would define it as probably the ultimate mega meal on the cross, which they would probably be way too... I think I overate. But anyway, really appreciate what this represents in terms of your own effort and commitment to communicate the truth of Jesus' life at this particular crucial juncture to people. So thank you very much for that. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Well, my pleasure indeed. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so we thank you again for taking the time to be with us, Woodrow, and we wish you well with the project. 

Dr. Woodrow Kroll: 

Thank you. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I want to thank you for joining The Table. Hope you'll join us again soon. If you are interested in other episodes of The Table, you can check them out at voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast. Where you can get the whole menu of almost over 600 hours of material that we've produced for The Table, where we discuss issues of God and culture. And we hope to see you again soon.