Coping with Miscarriage

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, hello. I'm Bill Hendricks, the executive director for Christian leadership at the Hendricks Center. And it's my privilege to welcome you to The Table Podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. And today, that piece of everyday life can be found in the topic of miscarriage, which is a tall order. How does theology possibly relate to something as personal, as raw and as tender as miscarriage? And having said that, I want to say to you as listener, don't be surprised if as we talk about this topic today you find some feelings welling up for you that you hadn't anticipated. Very, very common and... But it's actually okay that you would have those. And so don't reject those feelings. Your soul is telling you something important about yourself. And hopefully this podcast can really speak into the questions, the concerns, even the pain or the hopes that you might have. 

You may have personally experienced miscarriage, either as a mother or as the father of the child that's gone. You may know somebody in your family, in your church, at work, in your neighborhood who has experienced miscarriage. And if neither of those is true, you will likely at some point meet and run into somebody who's experiencing a miscarriage. And we put this podcast together again to provide you some resources to help show the relevance of biblical theology in speaking into this issue. And we've got a bunch of expertise here today. We've got some professional expertise. We've got some personal expertise. 

And on the professional side, I want to introduce my colleague, Dr. Sandra Glahn, who is the professor of Media and Worship Arts here at Dallas Seminary. And she is a prolific writer and writes both fiction and nonfiction. And a book that she has written that speaks definitely into the topic today, When Empty Arms Become a Heavy Burden: Encouragement for Couples Facing Infertility, which is not identical to miscarriage, but it's certainly joined at the hip. And we'll probably get into that topic as well. And then to my left is Dr. Gary Barnes, who is a professor of Counseling Ministries here at the seminary. And he specializes in marriage and family life. And somewhat more on the personal side here, I want to introduce Drake and Callie Millier. Drake has degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and has worked quite a bit throughout the country in the oil and gas industry. And his wife, Callie, is... She's had undergraduate and graduate degrees in history and is currently a Master of Art student here at Dallas Seminary in Christian Education. Drake, Callie, welcome to The Table Podcast. 

Callie Millier: 

Thank you. 

Drake Millier: 

Thank you. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Really want to thank you for joining us. I want to add that the Milliers have a daughter, Elizabeth, and they also have two goldendoodles named Izzy and Zonk. So they got quite a house going there. But listen, the two of you have journeyed through this valley of miscarriage. And Callie, I just want to really acknowledge you're a brave woman to talk about your experience with us today and appreciate that so much. Tell us a little bit more about that whole season of your life. 

Callie Millier: 

Right. So for us, it really did start years before because we had infertility issues. And so we had been longing for a child for about six years, and we went through in vitro and there's all sorts of hormonal things that are going on with that as well. And so we got the news that I was pregnant and that was so exciting. And we had been praying with our church for a very long time. And so the assistant pastor, he had gotten up on stage and praised that, "The Milliers are pregnant. And how exciting is this?" And at six weeks we got to see the baby's heartbeat with a sonogram, and then at eight weeks and at 10 weeks. And so when I went in for the 12th week, that was supposed to be, "You're being released to your regular doctor," but there was no heartbeat. 

And so that was very challenging. I was in complete shock. The doctor told me that she can't find the heartbeat. And in my mind I was just like, "Okay. So what do we do? Do you have little shockers or something? Is there medicine that I can take? What is it that we can do to fix this?" But there's not. And so the next day, I went back in and I double-checked, and then there was still no heartbeat. So they told me that... This was on Friday. They said on Monday, "If your body has not begun to progress through releasing everything we need to do, we need to have some intervention because at 12 weeks, the size of the baby can be big enough where there can be problems." And so I did have to go in and it was a very traumatic experience. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Could only imagine. 

Callie Millier: 

There's all sorts of grieving. And then they're having to use medicine that is for abortion. So there's all these conflicting emotions that are going on. And then we got to learn that we process grief very differently. And so Drake is far more open and so he was telling people right away. And I was not in a place where I wanted to do that. So that was hard. And it took us then a year before we did the next round of frozen embryo transfer, and that pregnancy lasted about eight weeks and then we lost that pregnancy also. 

Drake Millier: 

And to tell you on that one how raw it can be, I was leaving for work and I typical called Callie, said, "Hey. Can I get anything on the way home?" She said, "Hey. Grab a bag of lemons at Costco," because she'd used a lot of lemon water to help with different things. And from the time I left the office to got home, I found her in tears just because we knew we'd had a second miscarriage. And so it was just that quick, I mean, 30 minutes, how that can impact. So again, very, very difficult to go through that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

If I understand the story correctly, you went through two miscarriages within a year's time, roughly? 

Callie Millier: 

Yes. 

Drake Millier: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. Wow. Well, again, I want to thank you for your willingness to share your story in hopes that it can help others who may be confronting this whole ordeal. And even with just what you've shared, it just raises a host of issues. There's medical issues. There's psychological issues. There re emotional issues. There are spiritual issues, pastoral issues, all kinds of questions. Maybe a good place to start is with the medical. Exactly what is a miscarriage? I know we throw that term around, but as I have perceived in talking with different people, it in a sense means different things to different people. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Well, it's not the same as, excuse me, a later pregnancy. There are different terms for it. Excuse me. But it's basically the loss of a pregnancy and the baby has died. And as Callie mentioned, if you're waiting for your body to take care of it versus medical intervention, and that's a whole different kind of traumatic experience. You're not in the privacy of your own home. You're not in a comfortable place. You're feeling exposed. So it involves a medical team at times. And also as you mentioned, the medicine that is used in many cases to make sure that you're not going to end up with an infection, because you have something decomposing in you, to be blunt. Then you're taking stuff that is also used for abortion, but you need it to maybe save your life. So it's a marital, medical, spiritual, emotional crisis. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's very conflicting. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yeah. And it's not neatly categorized. So that medical crisis can involve ethical and spiritual crises because you're talking about medicine that you're hearing about. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Is it just a matter of semantics? Any difference between a... 

Sandra Glahn: 

Like a stillborn? 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Like- 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Stillborn versus miscarriage? 

Sandra Glahn: 

Well, it's not semantics. No. It's not semantics. They're actually clear guidelines on at what point the terms change. And similar to how there are different terms for an embryo and a fetus, technically speaking. We might use them together, particularly if you're pro-life, but there are actual technical distinctions. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. Generally speaking, we use the term miscarriage to cover any loss of pregnancy. Sometimes it's also referred to as fetal loss. More technically, I think the term's used to loss within the first trimester. It makes it very confusing on how you get numbers and how you report statistics on the thing. And because of that, the CDC does not... Different states have different requirements on when they report. And so they have very inconclusive reports on the occurrence. Estimates are over a million a year. And also NIH- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Here in the US? Yeah. 

Sandra Glahn: 

In the US. Yeah. 

Gary Barnes: 

In the US. NIH would say that's going to be about one out of four pregnancies. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So this isn't exactly a rare occurrence? 

Sandra Glahn: 

Not at all. And there are- 

Gary Barnes: 

Imagine one out of four. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, it's interesting because the NIH did a study, national study, 49 states, asking people, "How often do you think miscarriages occur?" And the answer that came up was most people think, "Oh, about 5%." 

Sandra Glahn: 

Wow. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And you're saying, "Well, it's maybe more like 25%."? 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. And NIH even gives a number of 26%. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. And- 

Sandra Glahn: 

And that's assuming there was a test that could confirm it. 

Gary Barnes: 

But those are reported. Those are reported. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Those are reported. And also lots of people lose pregnancy before the sixth week when they never got an HCG test. So a whole lot of them are lost earlier than that. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, and Callie, I don't know if this is going to apply to you, but they also ask in that study, "What do you think causes a miscarriage?" And the responses were, "Well, a stressful event or lifting heavy objects or using an IUD or using oral contraceptives." And you can see with many of those, there's sort of a blame factor in... Like, "You must have done something wrong." 

Sandra Glahn: 

And then you throw in some of the other myths, like, "Oh, you probably consumed too much sugar or you hit your brakes too hard," Or- 

Bill Hendricks: 

"Took this or that vaccine." 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yeah. Yes. All of that. And the saddest part is it can feel very much like blame the person who's suffering when a whole lot of it is we don't know or it's a mystery or... 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's a mystery. Callie, you said you felt shock when you sort of... It first dawned on you or you heard or when you realized that, "Oh, my gosh. That this baby that I've been carrying is not going to make it, hasn't made it." What were the most prominent feelings that eventually surfaced for you? 

Callie Millier: 

Probably confusion and anger with God because we had been praying for so long and then we had so much excitement and then all of a sudden what we had looked at as, "Okay. This is a gift from God," and now it's turned from a gift to a heartbreak. And so- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you said your pastor had actually... And now it's from the front to all the folks there, "Hey. Let's celebrate together with Callie and Drake." 

Callie Millier: 

Right. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Oh, my gosh. Which this sort of ups the ante. 

Callie Millier: 

Right. And so it was very hard because it was like, "Okay, God. Why would you give us this blessing to just rip it away from us?" 

Bill Hendricks: 

Sense of betrayal. 

Callie Millier: 

Right. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Drake, I was going to ask you, as Callie's going through this whole ordeal, what's going on for you emotionally? And I'm particularly thinking the first time around. 

Drake Millier: 

Yeah. I was lost and I was really angry as well. And part of it, there's nothing I can do to help her. I mean, is kind of the feeling that we felt, is just we had to struggle through it for the most part. We look for all kinds of resources available. And one of the things we came up with is there weren't many available. This was a few years ago now, so maybe there's more now, but... But the way I describe it as well is I was that guy on the highway that was yelling in the mornings at nobody and it was me and God talking. And thankfully He's big enough that He can handle a little guy like me. And for years worked through the infertility and the miscarriages with Him that way. And because we had a strong relationship, both Callie and I, and relationship with Christ, I felt comfortable doing that, but it was tough. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I'm curious. To back things up, you've endured this recognition that, "We're infertile," which I would think that in itself would be a bit of a disappointment, like, "What's wrong? What's going on here, God?" And you pray and you seek the medical help and in vitro and so forth. And then it's like, "Okay. Finally a prayer's been answered. We're pregnant." So I could see where there's a whole anticipation. You've written on infertility. Is that common? 

Sandra Glahn: 

Sure. Sure. And written out of my own experience as well. And yes, I think one of the journeys for a lot of people is realizing that we don't always do a great job in our churches teaching people that lament is a healthy, actually the most common form of psalms, and that as Drake so wisely said, God is totally big enough to receive that and even provide, "Oh, wait. You're not strong enough. Here let me give you some wording to actually get more specific." One in particular that was a favorite of mine for a while was Jeremiah's, "You pulled back your bow and pointed arrow at me." And I thought, "Wow. That's pretty gutsy and..." But that's how you feel. Or, "I was a beast before you," and you picture Spain and get the idea of... There's some anger here. And that's healthy. And He is big enough for it, but it is completely normal, but also often, and I'm sure Dr. Barnes can address, is very much denied, which can make it a lot worse. Right? 

Gary Barnes: 

We can cope in beneficial ways, but also in counterproductive ways. And one of the huge counterproductive ways of coping is to not let myself feel my emotions. And so I would tend to minimize or even deny the loss or especially the magnitude of the loss. And in many cases, whether it's taught directly or indirectly, a lot of times our faith gives us the message that says, "If you experience negative emotions, you're not spiritual." So that's quite a conflict if I'm actually experiencing negative emotions. 

Sandra Glahn: 

And right. Right. Right. Downright. Happy all the time is not exactly matching your experience, so... 

Gary Barnes: 

This is where the happy clappy Christian thing's not going to really go the distance with you. But the other thing is just the opportunity of actually embracing the emotion, because that's where we get to have greater self-awareness, greater God-awareness and a better sense of how God's story intersects with the reality of my story in this moment. But that doesn't just start with positive feelings. That's usually going to start with very strong negative feelings. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Well, there's no question that maybe of all categories of life that Christians struggle with, emotions may be the one that's the most thorny for a lot of the reasons that you mentioned, and... 

Sandra Glahn: 

At least in the West. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, yes. Definitely in the West. And I guess we'll have to do another podcast on that. But I step back from that, I go... I get that. But I look at Jesus Christ and the vast range of emotions that He not only must have felt, but that He even expressed. And it says something important about the nature of emotions. And the best thing I've heard on it is that emotions are basically the language of the soul, that your soul is telling you something that's very important to listen to, not to judge, but to just hold it and go, "Huh. I'm feeling this way. Lord, I'm feeling this way. I'm not quite sure what to do with that, but I need to listen to what is that saying to me about where things are at." 

Gary Barnes: 

Yes. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Right. Something else that Drake mentioned, or maybe it was you, Callie, of how you were just at such a different place emotionally. That can really be isolating too. You're used to being on the same page and you've been through this together and all of a sudden... And that is some of the data that we saw that again, Dr. Barnes can address because very equipped to talk about couples, but seeing that because it's happening in your childbearing years, it's often the first time a couple has really dealt with grief together and are shocked to discover- 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's a new experience. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yes. And are shocked to discover how differently. That was certainly our story, how differently one internalizes and one expresses. And often also we're taught a lot of times that your marriage is supposed to be like where all your emotions are fulfilled. And so one can have a high word count and the other doesn't want to talk. Yeah. Take it away. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You see that a lot in your practice? 

Gary Barnes: 

The safest expectation is going to be, "Not only are we different, but we're going to do this very differently," which- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Do grief differently? 

Gary Barnes: 

Yes. And so, "Are we going to be allies or adversaries in this joint grief process that we're going through?" And again, sometimes the approach is, "I'm not going to do grief." And so then you have one person trying to do grief and the other's not doing grief, and, "I can't help you with your grief because that means I can't do my strategy of not doing grief." So it can really... 

Sandra Glahn: 

And then you have the added grief of, "My marriage is now not what it once was because we're not the same." 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's another kind of a loss. "I've lost what I have." 

Sandra Glahn: 

Totally lost. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Milliers, you alluded to the challenges this created for your marriage. Callie, you want to speak into that a little bit more? 

Callie Millier: 

I think at the time I got very frustrated with him and I wanted to process on my own. I didn't want to be telling everybody. I didn't want people coming up to me and giving their 2 cents. There's a lot of platitudes that people give that for me were not helpful at all. Even people who had been through miscarriages. And so I was just wanting to not put everything out there. Drake is different. And so I was very frustrated with him for being as open as he was because I felt like, "I'm not being given my privacy now and you have taken away this ability for me to grieve in private. It's just being splashed out there." So that was how I was feeling. 

Drake Millier: 

And it makes it tough, as Callie alluded to. So many people that you are around you want to love on you and they want to offer words of encouragement and all these church phrases, what I would often say. Those can sometimes be received very hurtfully even though they're meant out of love. And so we also had to remind each other, "Hey. These people want to love on us and help us through this as well, even though we may not interpret it that way." And that was tough. And so when our pastor had mentioned it at church as well that Sunday, there were some people that we hadn't seen in two, three weeks because they hadn't been there after the miscarriage. So then we got a reminder when they would ask us, again out of love, how things were going for several weeks post that event. So it's tough. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, this is very familiar ground for me because my first wife passed away in 2000. So I've been living with grief and loss for many years. And as well, she herself had had a miscarriage. So your story is something that feels very familiar and have a connection here, but I'm sure it's connecting with many of those listening to the podcast. And I guess the point or one of the big takeaways here that's been raised is everybody experiences their emotions differently, and that includes grief. Everybody experiences and deals with grief a little differently. It's interesting the range of emotions. In the National Institute of Health study that I mentioned, they asked women who had undergone a miscarriage something about their feelings, how they'd experienced it. And 47% said they felt guilty. And 41% said, "Well, I think I did something wrong." 41% felt alone in the sense that, "I'm all alone in this thing." And 28%, almost a third, felt ashamed. 

And I know when my wife had her miscarriage, that was in a time when it wasn't like you mentioned it to people. You might mention it to a very close friend, maybe to your family of origin, but you'd show up to church if not the next Sunday, the following Sunday or whenever you went next. And you're just there and you hold on to it. And so as I said earlier, it is a secret in the background. And that feels to me from this standpoint like it's never quite a healthy thing. Notwithstanding, I want to respect the privacy of somebody. And we're in this nether world of, "Hey. People want to be supportive, but how do you do that without saying something stupid or disrespecting somebody's... The way they grieve is like Callie, a little more private and inward. And you can help me the most by not making me talk about it." 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. Bill, I'd love for us to talk a little more about how to love others in their loss. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. It's a real pastoral issue. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yes. Because there's so many ways that you can have good intentions and have a negative impact. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Absolutely. Yeah. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. So it reminds me of the book by Joe Bailey, who was a pastor and lost sons unrelated to one another and ended up writing the book A View From the Hearse. And he's talking about his experience as a pastor with other people ministering to him and his loss. And he gave me some terms that have just helped me so much. He says, "When people came to me and tried to support and love me with the Ministry of Proclamation, I couldn't wait for them to leave. But when they came with the Ministry of Presence, I was never ready for them to leave." 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. Yeah. Right. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Good word. Yeah. 

Gary Barnes: 

And so it's not natural for most of us to be with someone in pain. Our tendency is to want to take the pain away. And we do many times stupid things to try to do that. And that's where the Christian platitudes are so common. I think at the root of it it's our own wrestle with, "If this could happen to you, it could happen to me. I can't bear the idea of that, so I have to have a solution for it. And so I can't enter into it because then I'm not only feeling it for you, I'm feeling it for myself." But what a Ministry, Ministry of Presence, to be with, loving without the use of words. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I can say from personal experience, the morning after my wife had passed away, and partly it's a Southern thing, but people started showing up at my door. And I don't remember a thing any of them said, but I do remember their presence. The first one, I opened the door, he said nothing. He just embraced me. And to this day I can feel it. I'd be like, "Thank you. You're here. That's all I need." And I was blessed by those folks. The power of presence, not proclamation. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yeah. That's a good word. Job's friends did great for the first week, but then they had to open their mouths and it went down from there. And you think about Paul's instruction, "Weep with those who weep." And I think all of us have experienced grief. It goes with humanity. But you're embarrassed if you're crying everywhere you go, until somebody cries with you and then you don't feel as stupid because they're crying too and then you can just have the emotion that you're feeling instead of, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry," and trying to get rid of the tears and wipe it away. And yeah, empathy goes a long way. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Drake, Kerry, you mentioned the way your church community responded to this whole thing. And that's a huge issue there. I'm curious. We talked about how you each individually reacted and then the effects on your marriage. What about your two families? Because these are two family systems coming together. How did this affect them to the extent you feel comfortable sharing that? 

Callie Millier: 

Right. Right. I know for my mom, it was very devastating. Both miscarriages were extremely devastating. She doesn't have other grandchildren. And at the time... I don't know. I don't think Drew was married yet. But she had not experienced miscarriages and she didn't know of anyone who had, at least by telling her. And so that wasn't on her radar. And so I know for her, it was extremely hard. My dad is in the medical community, and so it was far more on his radar. It was still more challenging, but it wasn't the same because he did know a lot of the stats about that. For your parents? 

Drake Millier: 

I think on my side, some honesty came out. I didn't know, but my mom had actually had a miscarriage before me years ago. I was the firstborn. So they had experienced some of that years before. So I felt like it was part of life. What was tough for us then is my younger brother ended up... He and his wife got pregnant three months after our miscarriage. And so they were able to just move forward with it. And so as we are still going through the grieving process, finding way to celebrate with them... 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's cold. 

Drake Millier: 

Was a challenge. But I'd say overall my side, they really tried to love on us any way they could. Yours did too. 

Callie Millier: 

Yeah. Yeah. Mine did too. And my grandfather was still alive at the time and I found out that my grandmother had had a miscarriage that I didn't know about. And so that was interesting to learn. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Who's back at those secrets that get held on to. And this is one of them, a very common one. And I suppose that speaks into a much broader narrative that our culture in general simply doesn't know very much about grief and loss and how to grieve and how to experience loss and live with loss. And so we... Like you said, we just tend to hide it. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. That's true. But another thing is you could have two different people with almost identical losses with very different experiences. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's true. Right. 

Gary Barnes: 

And so it's very individualized. Very individualized. And sometimes it's very, very significant beyond what you might imagine if that were your loss or maybe you had the same loss, but your experience is so much different than my experience. There's a study out of the Georgetown University that reported in 2019, women who experienced an early pregnancy loss, nine months later, 18% of them had symptoms consistent with PTSD. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Gary Barnes: 

But in that very same study, looking at the same sample of women, within one month after the loss, the number was double that. So in that eighth month time period, that also reflects the changes that people experienced in their symptoms along the way. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. 

Gary Barnes: 

But nine months later, I mean, 18% are experiencing that significant symptoms from the loss. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Any thoughts about what does one do in the aftermath of a loss like a miscarriage? Maybe before we have the two of you speak into that, I would ask the Milliers. What's been your experience of... The way I put it in my own situation, you never get over the loss. You do get past it, in other words, the intensity, the severity, the shock, because life hopefully goes on, but you never quite forget. And so that grief is not linear. It's cyclical. You have grief cycles. But what was your process for beginning to... I mean... And again, you then did get pregnant and had Elizabeth, which was a grace. But then I wonder, well, where did you find a place for the two that weren't able to be born over time? 

Callie Millier: 

For me, when I was pregnant with Elizabeth, so I was... She was our last chance essentially. And the other two pregnancies I had had really bad morning sickness. And that's what the lemon water that Drake had talked about. I just felt horrible. And then with Elizabeth, I didn't. And so I was pretty convinced that she was also going to be a pregnancy loss. And I had a really hard time accepting that I was actually pregnant. So some of the processing, it took a while, but it was when I finally threw up my hands to God and said, "Okay, God. This is you. You are the one in control, and I have to give up control," which I like control. I don't know if you do, but I do. So that was some of how I finally was able to move on, was to give up control to God and to be like, "Okay. Whatever is happening with those babies is in His hands." 

And that was some of the things that were hard. People had told me, "Oh, well, when you get to heaven, you'll get to hold your babies." And how I process that, I've rejected that entirely I was like, "Well, if they're there, I hope that they're not babies when I get there. That's not what I want." Anyways. But for me, yeah, crying out to God and just fully surrendering and letting myself move on, I guess. What about you? 

Drake Millier: 

Yeah. I touched on it earlier, just getting, working through it was a lot of discussions with Christ on the way to and from work. I had a nice long commute on the highway. And so I got to spend every morning and every evening with that. And I listened to a lot of worship music in that time, different radio stations that I really enjoyed, different Christian musicians. They just helped... That helped me work through it. And try and focus... Viewing God in a positive, making sure to remember, "Okay. God loves me. That doesn't change. And compared to Job in the Bible, this is probably not even comparable," but just working through it that way. It just took time. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Sandra? Gary? 

Sandra Glahn: 

I think the acknowledgement that you touched on so many... Such a high percentage of people think about, "What caused it? And is it my fault?" And that leads to the big question of why does suffering happen? And I know for myself, it sent me back to the first chapter and all the way through the book looking at, I knew there were things like God can use things for good and that people can come to Christ. And none of those was satisfying. The only answer that was satisfying was, "It's a mystery." And then you can say, "Okay. God's ways are above my ways as high as the heavens are above the Earth," which is pretty high. And so I don't have to understand it. I don't like it. I don't understand it- 

Bill Hendricks: 

You don't have to like it though? 

Sandra Glahn: 

I don't have to like it. That's right. I don't like it. 

Bill Hendricks: 

"But I don't have to have an answer for-" 

Sandra Glahn: 

I'm very clear that I do not, but I- 

Bill Hendricks: 

"I don't have to have an answer for it." 

Sandra Glahn: 

Correct. And if I did, I wouldn't like it anyway. So that's not where the satisfaction is going to come. It really then comes down to, still comes down to, "Is God good? And will I trust Him?" And that's where the advice to preach the gospel to yourself every day is really important because there's a lot we don't understand, but there's some things we do understand and that's Jesus Christ in the flesh for us. That's big. I for sure would not give up my only child for you. Okay? And for God to do that for an enemy, I'm not even sure I want to have that kind of love. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. Well, I could springboard off of that. If you think about the relationship that God has towards us, He moved towards us when we were either moving away or against God, but He persistently moves towards us, His faithful love and kindness. So it's interesting if you take that and you look at research outcomes in relationships. That's a really big predictor for outcomes of stability and satisfaction just in general in relationships. So you have the moment of an exchange between a sender and a receiver of messages. It's true in any relationship, but especially true in marriages where the outcome of that is going to be one of three things. It's the impact of you moving towards me or you moving against me or you moving away from me. And in relationships that are observable as stable and satisfying relationships, if you were able to accumulate all those interactions and put them in file folders, they're towards file folder would be greater than the sum of their away and against file folders. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Interesting. 

Gary Barnes: 

See? So when it comes to grieving and grieving differently, and especially a loss of pregnancy, that really applies because you're going to be grieving very, very differently, but you'd want to have each person say, "Our towards file folder's bigger than are away and against file folders here." So a specific way that you could grow the towards file folder is you're doing the Ministry of Presence with your partner and you're even inviting them to share their experience with you. 

Bill Hendricks: 

However they choose to do that.. 

Gary Barnes: 

No matter how different it is from yours. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Right. You're honoring their way. 

Gary Barnes: 

You're inviting. You're... "Please-" 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're safe. 

Gary Barnes: 

"Let me be available." 

Bill Hendricks: 

Available? 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Right. 

Gary Barnes: 

And you would especially not want to give new information while they're doing that, but you could reflect the information that you're understanding. That gives them a chance to decide whether you're understanding or not. And then if you could reflect back, "Wow. That really makes sense to me that you would feel how you're feeling based on the description that you're helping me understand." See? So that's the first good thing to hit is an understanding part. The second would be the validating, and that's the, "That really makes sense to me. It's not my experience, but your experience." 

Bill Hendricks: 

"And it doesn't have to be my experience." 

Gary Barnes: 

Does not have to be. 

Bill Hendricks: 

"But I can acknowledge that's your experience and-" 

Sandra Glahn: 

"I can see how you'd see it that way." That goes a long way. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yeah. That totally makes sense to me. And then the third thing, which is ultimate, is the empathy response. And that is, "I don't have to have the same feeling you're having, but I do need to connect with the feeling that you're having, even to the point that it creates a feeling in me about your feeling. And then I can even express my feeling about your feeling as a sense of empathy, like I'm really with you in this." See? And when that's a mutual thing, that's really a difference maker in how you grieve well as a couple. 

Bill Hendricks: 

This is really helpful. And it leads to one final question that I want to put to the two of you, Professors. The Milliers mentioned that as they were going through these two miscarriages, they obviously reach out for, "Well, what are some resources here? Is there any written on this? Or..." And there just wasn't a whole lot of stuff. And I'm just curious if you have top of mind any resources that would be worth everybody who's joining us on this podcast to know about? 

Gary Barnes: 

Well, I plug Dr. Glahn's book. And even though the book is- 

Bill Hendricks: 

When Empty Arms Become a Heavy Burden. 

Gary Barnes: 

I mean, you also have a chapter specifically on miscarriage within the book. 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yeah. It's a subset of infertility. It's considered a subset. Resolve Incorporated, it's a secular organization, but it's a terrific source of all kinds of medical information, success rates here and there. Also, Hannah's Prayer. There are lots of sites available online or small group and Facebook groups, lots of resources available. Lots of churches have support groups. You can start your own, even if you're not a therapist, even just to gather together people who have a shared experience. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Similar experience? 

Sandra Glahn: 

Yeah. 

Gary Barnes: 

It's a big difference maker to journey with others with a shared experience. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'll mention one other resource that in the run-up to preparing for this, discovered a friend of mine... Mark Vosgop is his name. He's a pastor in College Park Church in Indianapolis. And discovered that he and his wife, Sarah, had had a miscarriage and I guess actually a stillborn. And in the long aftermath, not immediately, but being a pastor-theologian, he... You mentioned the word lament. And he really had gone to school on the privilege God gives us to mourn and lament and has written a great book called Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament. And again, his name is Mark Vroegop. And all of these are very helpful resources. 

I think one of the best resources we've had here today though has been the Milliers. I want to just again salute you for... I don't know. To my way of thinking, it takes a bit of courage to come online and visit with some folks you've not really met before, but to talk about such a tender experience with such candor and honesty. And I want to thank you for doing that because there's a lot of folks going to dial into this podcast that very much need to hear your story. 

Callie Millier: 

We're very happy to help others through that. And that's one thing that Drake's candor made it where I was pushed further faster than I probably would've on my own. And I think that in the end that was a good thing for other people. 

Drake Millier: 

Yeah. And Callie has taken the experience with others that we've been in church since then. And when we find out they may have had a miscarriage, being able to go and, as you talked about, the gift of presence and then just some compiling a gift basket of things that were for her comforting to provide that. And I think one of the big ones that you've heard about is a very, very, very soft blanket, just so that the mother can hold that. And that's been received really well. But yeah, it's been an awesome thing you've done. 

Callie Millier: 

Thank you. Yeah. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well. That's a wonderful example of what Paul talks about, that we're able to comfort others with the same comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted. And I want to thank Dr. Barnes, Dr. Glahn for bringing your both experience and expertise around some of these matters to The Table podcast. Thank you for being here. 

Sandra Glahn: 

And thank you. Your story came in here today. Appreciate that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Thank you. 

Gary Barnes: 

Yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I want to leave us on what has become a really valuable passage of scripture for me, and I hope it will be for you. In First Thessalonians 4, Paul talks about the fact that as Christians, we grieve but not as those who have no hope. And what I've discovered is that both sides of that are absolutely true. There is real grief. And it's really important, as Dr. Barnes pointed out, that we stay in touch with those feelings, we not push them away. And that's sad and it's hard and it's painful. So the grief is real. But then we have this other side of the equation. The hope is also real. And thank God we have that hope because I've certainly met plenty of people who face all kinds of grief and loss, not just losses of loved ones, either before birth or after birth, but losses of jobs, losses of income, losses of dreams, losses of many kinds, and they have no hope. And boy, that's a terrible place to be, that you're dealing with this all by yourself. 

But fortunately, thanks to what Christ has done for us, we have this God who loves us with an almost, I guess you'd say, irrational, committed love. And even in the midst of our pain and our grief, He's there with us and walks with us through that. My prayer would be for you, whatever personal experience you've had with miscarriage or any other loss, as well as you run into people who are going through trauma and loss and pain of different kinds that you would both experience and be an agent of the hope that is in Christ. 

And I want to thank you today for listening to The Table podcast. If you've found this podcast helpful, encourage you to subscribe on whatever service that you hear your podcasts on. And also, if you wouldn't mind, leave a review for us, or if there's a ranking, give us whatever ranking. But it helps to let others begin to know that there is such a thing as The Table podcast. And with that, I look forward to seeing you back with us on the next Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology for everyday life. Thanks for being with us.