Christianity, Politics, and the Public Space: What is the Connection?

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center in Dallas, Texas at Dallas Theological Seminary. And our topic today is politics and theology, or politics and the gospel, or political gospel maybe with a question mark. Anyway, my guest is Patrick Schreiner. I've known the Schreiner family for a long time. Patrick is Associate Professor of New Testament at Midwestern in Kansas City. Is that right? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

You've been there not too long. Am I right about that? This is your second year? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

This is my third year. 

Darrell Bock: 

Third year. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

I was at Western Seminary before that in Portland, Oregon. 

Darrell Bock: 

Patrick's father and I hit the theological scene about the same time so this is fun to do this. Patrick was telling me before we recorded that he's on his first sabbatical. All my sabbaticals are behind me so there's that dimension of what's going on. But we're going to discuss politics and the gospel. So my first question to anyone who's new to The Table is always this. What's a nice guy like you doing in a gig like this? How did you get to what we're about to discuss? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

Someone twisted my arm and said I had to write this book. No. Most of my books, like yours, have to deal with the biblical text. They're not really hot topics like Matthew or Acts or the Ascension. It's not like a lot of people want you to come on their podcast to talk about just Matthew, in general, or whatever book it is that we're writing on. But actually, this book stems from a few different sources. Number one, I was studying Acts, and you actually read my Acts commentary as one of my editors. I was studying Acts and I just kept noticing Paul's engagement in the second half of Acts with the culture and how his message was viewed politically. I had done a lot of work on euangelion in gospel terms in Greco-Roman history. 

And so all of this was combining and I was starting to pay a little bit more attention to the Greco-Roman side of backgrounds and not just the Jewish side. I think Jewish side takes precedence but they live in the Greco-Roman times. All of this research was coming together for me, but at the same time, I'm a person who has a foot in the academy and a foot in the church. I was also looking from 2016 to 2022, just what was happening in the church politically, and even before that. But certainly, in 2016 things ramped up I think as most people would admit. I saw a lot of division in terms of politics. 

I wanted to bring a biblical perspective to the political conversation. I'm not a political theology person, I'm not a political theorist, I didn't do political science in my BA but I have studied the biblical text and I think the biblical text has a lot more to say about our political engagement than most people realize. Typically, when I read books on political theology they'll talk about three texts probably. Genesis 9, Mark 12, Romans 13. Paying taxes to Caesar, Paul's statement about submitting to the human governments, and then Genesis 9, a natural theology text. And I just think there's a lot more in the scriptures in terms of engaging with politics and how we're to think through politics than those three texts. I don't deny that those texts are important, but I think there's a lot more there. It stems from my studies of the scriptures and then also our current cultural moment and where Christians are in terms of our political conversations. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So we share a lot of the same concerns and a lot of the same background that we bring to this. And I really like the way you're walking into this to say there are more than three texts that involve how we engage with government. I like to remind people, particularly when they park on Romans 13 that I need to ask a second question and that is, what do you do with the prophets? And all that the prophets have to say about the way in which we relate corporately to one another and the responsibility of governments and that thing. And the challenge that the prophets give to the ethics of what is going on in society at large. Those kinds of questions which seems like a pretty large swath of scripture in comparison to just Romans 13, if I can make that observation. What are those things have to tell us? 

This isn't so much directly related to your book, but I'm curious how you answer the question. How do you think we got here? In other words, how do you think we got to the place where our thinking about corporate structures and the way they work, and the way we think about politics, the way we think about being a citizen, those questions, got separated off from the issues of discipleship? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

There's so many things that need to be said there. I'd say a few different things just to begin. Number one, I mean, I exist within evangelicalism. I know that's a debated term whether it's a political term, social term, or theological term, but if we could just use it more broadly. I grew up in evangelicalism. And one of the pros of the evangelical movement is it's very much about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And I totally believe that and I think there's a lot of good to that. What we miss sometimes when we overemphasize that is that the gospel's a fully public message as well. And so I think one of the reasons we've gotten here is because people have basically put religion in the private sphere and they don't think it's a public thing. We think well, I have religion over here, I have my belief in Jesus, I have a relationship with him, but maybe politics is a different thing. That's one era that we can step into. Now, some people might be like "Wait a second, I don't think that's the era we're in because some people are way too political." 

The opposite era that I identify is partisanship. So we could put it in the terms of we either privatize our faith or we make it partisan. And what that means is we so combine our Christian faith with one political party. Then we think "Oh, they are advocates for the kingdom of God." So it seems like we're falling off on two different sides here. Either we make it private or we make it partisan. And I especially look at the New Testament. The gospel message is fully political. I don't mean partisan, I mean, it's fully political in that Jesus announced he's the king of the kingdom. That's a political message. And I think there is a lot of evidence within the scriptures themselves that the terms that we think as religious terms, whether that be gospel, euangelion, faith, Pistis, Basileia , kingdom, Ekklesia, church, those are all political terms. 

And as you know, in the first century, there's no division between religion and politics. I'm not saying I don't agree with the separation of church and state in some sense, but I do think we need to return to the scriptures and recognize Jesus didn't come and say, "I'm just your spiritual guru who's going to talk about your heart," he was forming a new society, a new society under the thumb of Rome. And so that is going to cause some challenges and Rome's going to look at him a little sideways and say, "What's going on here?"Now, what's shocking as you know, and we could get into this more, is they all declare him innocent when he comes before the court. 

I use this paradigm of Jesus, Paul, and our future. The message is subversive but it's also submissive at the same time. It's subversive in that it's forming a new reality, a new polis, a new city, where we get the word politics from. But at the very same time, the way that it's subversive is by being submissive, Romans 13, and that's not all we could say. You mentioned the prophets earlier. I like to use the line that Revelation 13 and Romans 13 are both in our Bible, and Revelation 13 seems to say the human governments stem in some sense from the dragon. Now, how we interpret Revelation 13, we can get into that. But I do think there's this line in the Bible that the dark spiritual forces are also using governing forces to spread chaos, while at the same time, Paul can say they're God servant to spread order and peace. And so I think that's a paradox that we live in and that we have to come to the scriptures and recognize both that subversive nature of Christianity and the submissive nature and they both actually come together. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, that's a good way in so let's talk about this. You alluded to the definition of political so probably that's a good place to start the conversation. Making the point that the term political is a variation of the term polis which means city. It's talking about how people live together, how they function side by side, how society works, those kinds of questions. The issue of the role of the city in thinking through corporately who we are as people is deeply rooted in the Christian faith. I think of Augustine, City of God, as probably the prime example of that conversation going back a few centuries. So this has been something that has occupied Christians. I like to say to people that Christianity, it was designed to be holistic, it was designed to give us a way of life that touched on all the areas of life that Jesus's Lordship extends into all areas of life. 

One of my explanations for how we got here is the fundamentalist-modernist controversy. That what happened in the fundamentalist-modernist controversy is liberals came along and said, "We like the Christian ethic. We really love what the prophets have to say and the challenges that they put forward for people but we don't necessarily buy everything that's the theological story underneath it." And they pulled what was together apart. And then conservatives, because of that separation, looked at that and said, "We like that deal we're just going to flip it." And so the flip was you had a battle undergoing between what was called social gospel and what I'm going to call gospel gospel, and it's the more conservative side of this equation, and they got pulled apart. And in the pulling apart, you separated something that God had actually designed to work more together and be more connected. 

And so we're still living in that shadow. So that when anyone speaks about what it takes to be a good Christian citizen, et cetera, and wrestles with the relationship of what it means to be a member of the kingdom of God versus being a citizen of any particular country, take your pick, all of a sudden you've got tensions that are introduced. We tend to be inherently more patriotic to the earthly country that we're associated with than we tend to identify with what makes the kingdom of God the kingdom of God. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. I totally agree with that, Darrell. And when I say political gospel people will hear me maybe saying partisan gospel, and that's actually precisely what I'm not saying. By political I mean the activities associated with the organization and governance of people so really the historic sense of political. In terms of public life, the ordering of society, enacting justice, the arranging of common goods. I think Christianity, the ultimate aim is to order all of those things. We can go back in our history, we have really separated this social aspect from the personal aspect, and the scriptures just end up bringing them together. I mean, in Luke 4, it's very clear that his kingdom message has to do with the brokenhearted, those in prison, so forth, and so on. Quoting from Isaiah 61. There's just so much in the Bible, you cannot divorce those two things. 

Augustine I think said, "Politics is a people bound together by common loves." We're bound together in one way or another in a nation, in a community, in a group. And the question is how do we organize ourselves? And what I'm not saying is the scriptures come and tell us this is the type of government I want you to have. Christianity is malleable enough to live under many governing systems. I do think it has something to say in terms of what might be some better and worse governing systems just by implication but it's not here to give us that. Rather it causes us to exist as the kingdom of God in the midst of ... To use Augustine's phrase, "The city of man," right? 

And so political theology I have found to be so difficult because we live in that overlap of ages. That the kingdom of God is here present but it's not fully here yet. And also the city of man exists and there's overlap. And so are we supposed to advocate for the kingdom of God? Yes. Are we supposed to install the kingdom of God? I don't think so. I don't think we're supposed to install, I think Jesus is going to do that. And that's where we get a little confused I think with some of the Christian nationalism conversations. That we think the government needs to be the one who promotes and orders Christianity. And I'm saying, "No, that's going to happen at the end when Jesus comes back." For now, we exist actually as exiles according to 1 Peter, according to Jeremiah, according to really the biblical witness. That doesn't mean the kingdom isn't present, it just means we advocate for it by politic of persuasion, it's conversion. Not by law, not by order. We're not going to institute Christianity by law, that doesn't seem the way that Jesus wants us to move forward. 

As you know you've written on the scriptures and you've written on politics yourself, you're well versed in this, there's so many dangers in terms of this conversation because it is complicated and it's really hard. I'll just add this. It's really hard to move ... You know this. From the Old Testament political system to our modern day, and then from the New Testament political system to our modern day. It's really easy for us to want to make a one line straight line jump but it's just more complicated than that. So my encouragement to people is recognize that we live in the already not yet. Recognize that we live in that already not yet and that can help us a lot with our political doubt. 

Darrell Bock: 

And another element of what you've raised in living in the kingdom of God, in the midst of the kingdom of man, is that the function of the kingdom of God is to represent what God desires in the community that he has formed, which exists as almost ... If I'm going to use an image, almost as a oasis in the midst of the world. I think that some of what our theology has done when we move in a more partisan political direction is that we lose the value of why the church exists, and why the church is the church, and why the gospel is necessary, and why you're calling people out of the world into this new community as a part of the solution, all those kinds of things. 

I like to step back and say, the people of God have basically existed under two systems in the Bible. One is a theocracy, okay, that's the Old Testament. So we had the presence of God, we had the revelation of God, we had the people of God, we had everything that you think you would want and need, and yet everything about that history is a mess because of the hearts of people that needed reformation, and reshaping, and fresh empowering, and all the things that sin and depravity introduce into the world. That was a mess. To try and run our world on a political system without the relationship with God at its base is always going to be chaotic. 

And I think that's the lesson of the Old Testament, that's why you get the New Testament. You come to the New Testament and you've got ... Well, let me make one other point about the Old Testament before we leave it. You even have people living in certain parts of the Old Testament in foreign pagan nations where none of that exists, and yet the exhortation to people who are in that situation is serve the city. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Do what the very famous Jeremiah passage where how you conduct yourself as a useful citizen to that community is what commends God to people in the midst of that chaos. You come to the New Testament and you've got an empire. You've got a republic but you've got an empire, you've got emperors who are ruling, and very much a one-man show if I can say it that way. Certainly not a democracy. And you've got the church functioning as this oasis in the midst of that that's calling people and saying, "You can have your allegiance to Rome on the one hand, it exists, but the greater allegiance that you have is the allegiance to God and the community that you're going to be as a people of God in the midst of that larger community, and the way in which they draw." 

And the thing that I like to say about the first century is, the early church was a minority. They had no cultural power, they had no political power, they had no social power, all they had was spiritual power. And they seemed to have done pretty well in that environment despite the fact they didn't have the normal accoutrements of power that we normally think make you effective culturally. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right, that's right. And what you said, I think we're on the same page here because I like the language of oasis, that the church is an oasis. I use the language of ... Others have used this too of embassy or an outpost. We are representatives for another kingdom here on a foreign soil in some sense, and our foreign soil is the city of man. And then you went to Jeremiah, and I love that you went to Jeremiah. Even though my book is on the New Testament largely, at the end I actually go back to Jeremiah. 

And I was just thinking through Jeremiah's political message. And I pointed out four things in the book about Jeremiah that I just wanted to share with people that I thought was helpful for my own thinking. Jeremiah's first political move was to warn God's people of their own disloyalty to the Yahweh. And so when people are like "Hey, how do we be more political? What do you mean by that?" I say it starts in the church. I say it starts with hearing the word preached and actually taking of the sacraments, that's the most political act you can make. Because as you said, the church is the oasis, it is the embassy of that kingdom. 

And so Jeremiah's first political act is to warn them of disloyalty via Yahweh. But at the same time, that doesn't mean he doesn't have anything to say to the state. He also warned Babylon of judgment in Jeremiah 25. And so just because he's speaking to the people of God doesn't mean he can't say something also to the larger statecraft that exists. But then as you mentioned, he also told Israel in the midst of their disloyalty, "As you're in Babylon seek the good of the city." Be good neighbors. 

I also want to balance that with the fourth thing. Jeremiah told Israel to hope only in God's kingdom in his rescue, not in Babylon's rescue. So in the midst of seeking the good of the city, I think it's amazing that Jeremiah will also say, "God will rescue you not Babylon." The hard thing for us is balancing all four of those things because we like to take one of those out and say, "This is what we're called to do, we're only to speak to God's people." No, Jeremiah also spoke to the larger nations. Oh, we're only supposed to hope in God's kingdom. No, you're supposed to seek the good of the city at the same time. I found Jeremiah just a really helpful example to balance that witness and wisdom in terms of political conversations. 

I mean, gosh, I know it's the Old Testament, but I think pastors can follow that example. We speak to our people first about their first allegiance, their first political loyalty, that's to Jesus and his kingdom. But then I think we can also warn the state of judgment that is to come if they don't follow God's natural order. I think pastors should be doing that. I know there's always the critique, "Oh, pastors get so political." As I've talked to pastors I keep saying, "Be really clear where the Bible is clear. If it's not clear in the scriptures in terms of this policy issue, this issue of immigration or economics, maybe you need to not be so bold on those things because it might be a little bit more of your opinion than of scriptures call for us." I think some of things in terms of policy get really complicated, but I also think there are straight-line issues in the scriptures in terms of how we should speak politically. 

You asked me at the beginning why ... How have we gotten to this place politically? And I know this podcast is devoted to this and so I'm thankful for it. I would also say, people are scared to talk about this issue. And so we have not discipled people in this political realm because we're so scared to talk about it because it's so divisive. And so I would encourage pastors and leaders in the church, you do need to talk about these things because we have this division because I think we've been scared to talk about it. We haven't stood up when we've seen people who are not formed in the image of Christ in terms of their political engagement. We haven't stood up and said, "That's wrong we shouldn't do that." I know I'm speaking in generalities, but I think we need to do that more. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, so let's go through these four principles, I think there's a way to dig deeper on each one of them. Let's talk first about the disloyalty to Yahweh as the starting point. What I think the principle that raises is the ability to be self-critical. The ability to be self-critical about your own walk, your own need for God, where you need to do better as a community. I often get in these conversations and people say, "Well, Jesus railed against people." And then my response is, "But who did he rail against the most?" 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

He railed against the most the Pharisees. People who claim to represent God but who were doing so very inconsistently, let's just say it that way. And because they put the moniker of God on top of what they were doing, in some ways that was more reprehensible than the person who doesn't pretend to represent God. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that's the first one, that self-critical ability. And I think sometimes we aren't self-critical enough. So here we are giving the world, and rightly, a hard time for some of the way it's moved on certain issues, but our own house isn't really in order in a lot of these areas as well. And we need to acknowledge that and say, "We all have the need for God." That's a given, that's the starting point. So that's point one. Go ahead. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

I think 

Darrell Bock: 

That's Jeremiah, go ahead. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

Jeremiah is saying, "Before you seek to transform Babylon you need to be transformed yourself." 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

And I think that's the word to the church. And so I think you're exactly right. I read an article and I don't remember who it was by, but the line was basically, and the whole chapter was about, maybe our first act of politics, of our political lives, needs to be political repentance. And I think that was a great way of putting it. And just saying, maybe the first thing we need to do, as you just said, is examine our own hearts and are we being loyal to the king and his kingdom, to the lordship of Jesus Christ. 

Darrell Bock: 

Can we be an oasis if we're not an oasis but we're more like the world? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

I don't think so. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's the first point. So let's go to the second one. And second one is, all right, but he did challenge the nations around him. I think the important point here is how did he challenge the nations around him? What I think the challenge of the nations is about is reestablishing the idea that people are accountable to God whether they recognize it or not. And that accountability is something that God will resolve one day it's not something that we resolve by what we do. I mean, we can impact it and we can try and impact it, but in the end, when we're in the public square, we advocate for what we believe in but we recognize because we're in the world we may lose that case of advocacy in the world court. But in the end, that's not the court that matters. In the end, the court that matters is the court that lies with God. 

This is a point where I like to say, I'm glad that is out of my pay grade and that that's being handled by God and not by me. I think that's an important part of the second step. You challenge with regard to the moral calling that God has asked people to live by because they're made in his image. And you remind them that they're accountable and the choices that they make now will come to roost one day. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. Christopher Brian, who's an author, who's written I think on the subject, he said, "What is the main way that the church speaks to the government?" I love the way he put it. He said something to the effect of, we confront representatives with the truth about their origin and their purpose. In other words, where did you come from? Where did you get your authority? God, right? The scriptures say you get your authority from God himself. And what are you supposed to do? And this is where I think Romans 13 is helpful. You are to punish the evil and reward the good. You're to provide order and justice to society. 

So Christians uniquely can call nations and states to account for not fulfilling their God-ordained means and goals to what they're supposed to do. We can critique this state in that way because we know who has given them their authority and what they're called to do. Actually, in one sense, I don't think that's a distinctly Christian move, I think other people can do that who are non-Christian. They can say, "You're not providing order and justice as well." But Christians know that authority has been given to the state by God himself. He is their ultimate authority and they're here for a short time. You nailed it. That's exactly what Christians are called to do. 

Darrell Bock: 

And then the backside of that is that we realize that even if we lose the debate now, there's a time when justice comes, justice will be rendered, and things will be set straight. Order will be established. It may not be now in the time that we way and like. Which puts in place another principle and that is, that when we advocate in the public square and we get the pushback that the world inevitably gives that effort, we need to figure out how to be what I call good losers in that level of the debate, which I think we have shown we may not be as good at as we think we are. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

In that space that means I've got to wrestle with the question, what does it mean to be a citizen of a nation? It doesn't mean that I have a religious belief. And so my neighbor who's thinking very differently about what citizenship entails than myself, I've got to figure out how we're going to live together side by side as citizens of this country in which their rights and my rights are actually the same. And wrestle with that question. That's when the common good comes in, all those conversations. And you're advocating for the idea that certain principles about the way the Bible asks us to live are actually good and healthy for society, and you're trying to make that case as best as you can. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. And we are to advocate for those things that we believe in but we also recognize we live in a pluralistic society and they should advocate for what they believe in, and those are going to come to conflict sometimes. But we need to be able to recognize that we need to have humility in the midst of that. We will advocate for things that they won't like sometimes and that's part of what it means to be the kingdom of God, the oasis here in the city of man. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the challenge of that on top of that is that when the gospel is offered and it has a challenge on the one side about the sinfulness that we all possess but it also has an invitation into a new and different life, we've got to make sure that the gospel remains enough front and center that the good news part of that gets out in the midst of how we advocate in the public square for the need for Christ. And I think sometimes we're so heavy on the challenge side of that equation that you lose the redemptive good news, forgiveness offer, et cetera, reformation offer that's on the other end of that offer of the gospel and we can't lose that. I have to say, people are never supposed to be the enemy they're supposed to be the goal. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

There's a whole orientation to how we engage tonally that's a part of this challenge invitation place that says, we are an oasis because we're asking people to live in a way that's different from what surrounds them in the world. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. I begin the book with a story of me getting my haircut in Portland, Oregon, and my barber asked me, "What do I do?" And I said, "I teach theology." Nobody in Portland knows anyone who teaches theology and so they had a bunch of questions for me. I intro the book like this. The challenge for me was to not present the gospel at that point because I had the opportunity. Because most people when they hear I teach theology or the Bible they think Republican, right-wing, whatever it is. For good or for ill that's what they think, right, in Portland, Oregon, it's a very progressive city. So I wanted to stay away from honestly any sort of political conversation. People in Portland are immediately turned off to the gospel because of certain political views. I don't think that's always fair but that's just the way it is. So I wanted an avenue for the gospel. 

But at the same time, I didn't want to make my faith merely a personal thing because Portlanders love to say, "Well, that's really nice for you. That's wonderful for you that you believe that." And so I had to chart this middle ground of really presenting Jesus and his sacrifice not only for their sins but really the city that he was coming to rebuild and to make. That was the way I wanted to intro the book just to show people our gospel message is not just a private thing, nor is it a partisan thing, but it's truly a political thing. That we have a good king, and he's coming back, and he's going to turn everything and make it all right. And I think people in more progressive cities like a Portland, Oregon when they hear that they look around their city and they say, "Why is there so much that's going wrong?" And I say, "Well, I have hope that one day this will all be reversed but you do have to submit to that king." 

Darrell Bock: 

I had a very similar conversation with a guy watching a set of sporting events on a Saturday night when I was speaking in another city. I went to this restaurant to have a meal and to watch a sporting event that I wanted to see, and I was pretty concentrated on the sporting event, and the guy sitting next to me says, "You're pretty focused on that." I said, "That's the team I'm rooting for." We got into a discussion. And when he asked me what I did I said, Well, I teach theology." He said, "I've never met a theologian before, can I ask you some questions?" And we were off and running into a conversation in which all the things that he would be afraid to ask ... In fact, he told me, "I don't discuss theology with my family it's just too controversial." And so we pursued this conversation in which we were talking about a variety of things, some of which touched on the way he lives his life. 

It was a natural conversation. I mean, that was the thing that was interesting about it. He was genuinely curious. He lived in a small rural Texas town growing up so he knew a little bit about the church but really had drifted away, et cetera. And it was, in some ways, a very pleasant, I would say, seed planting conversation in many ways. It was very important. And I find that there are a lot of people who are in that space who if they determine it's safe will have a conversation about spiritual things with you because most people are searching to make sense out of their life. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right, that's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

So that's the second thing. So let's go to the third one. Let's see if I can remember it off the top of my head. The third point you were making from Jeremiah was- 

Patrick Schreiner: 

Seek the good of the city and what you already- 

Darrell Bock: 

Seek the good of the city which is ... The way I like to put this is, how do I deal with the stereotype that people have, generally speaking, of people who believe in God, okay? And they've never walked into a church in their life and so the only Christian experience that they have, and their only definition of Christianity, comes from one of two sources. Either the Christians that they know or what the culture says about Christianity. And then when I speak about this in the church I say to people, "How many of you want those two sources to be the source of people's understanding of Christianity?" And so that raises a challenge. So how do I deal with the stereotype that people may have about who Christians are, and what they believe, and what they think, and what they think about people? And how do I break that? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

And I think part of the answer is found in Jeremiah 29:7 that you get out there and you actually show that you want to do good for the community and for the world and that we're not just only internally focused on the church. I think focus on the church is hugely important for Christians, but the church is also supposed to be a light to the world. We need to seek the good of the city. I mean, this is a challenge for me. I use the phrase that Christians can tend to be quietistic. In other words, we can be so turned inward ... And this is the thing. When you begin talking about well, you need to practice your own repentance. The negative side of that is you only begin looking internally and forget to look outward. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

If you look through the history of Christianity, Christians were the first people to start hospitals, and orphanages, and foster care, and all these different things, which largely in the American system the state has taken over. I think Christians could recover this mindful activism. And I do think that begins in our local bodies and our local communities, and it doesn't necessarily begin at the federal level. Christianity, as you said, is a world-forming holistic belief system. And that means it should affect how I treat my neighbors, how I interact with my community, how I seek the good of all those around me. Your question was, how do we change people's minds about who we are? You love your neighbor. You love your neighbor- 

Darrell Bock: 

Which is a minor commandment in the Bible, right? 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. It's easier to say that than to do that. We need to be Christians that are really looking for the good of others and not just the good of ourselves. One of my fears is that, in the politics conversation, if you begin speaking about politics all that people hear is we're afraid of what's happening to us, we're afraid of what's happening in this culture, and so we're going to fight. I just think we need to have more tools in our tool belt than that. We need to show people that we have more to say than we're scared and we're going to fight against it. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's a very, very important point. And I think wrestling with how we serve well and break this stereotype or the impression about what Christians are. The only way you can do it is to show the difference and to show that there is a difference. And that you're not only complaining about what's going wrong in society but you're actually trying to make an effort to do better with society. I think back to the earliest Christians who picked up the babies that were left and abandoned and said, "I'm going to take" ... "This may not be my biological child but I'm going to make sure that this child has a life." And to do that through the entirety of life, from what some pastors call from the womb to the tomb, and to think through what's involved in that is a very, very important ability to be able to undertake. Well, let's go to the fourth one now. And now that I've remembered the third one I've forgotten the fourth one. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

The fourth one is, Jeremiah also told Israel to hope in God's kingdom, not in Babylon. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Now that- 

Patrick Schreiner: 

And so- 

Darrell Bock: 

That's the eschatological answer to everything that we're talking about. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. One of the dangers though with the previous point is we can begin to think that we can ... I would just put it this way. Transform the city and we can install God's kingdom here on this earth. I mentioned this earlier. But I think the scriptures are very clear that in the midst of seeking the good of Babylon and the good of the city, we don't put our hope in them. So the Psalms talk a lot about don't put your hope in human governors. Don't put your hope in them put your hope in the Lord. Because guess what? Human governments will not provide justice in the ultimate sense. Human- 

Darrell Bock: 

You've made a very important point here which is you need to understand the limitations of our traditional politics and what it can and can't do for us. That- 

Patrick Schreiner: 

It won't care for the poor in the ultimate sense. They can make some progress, but in the ultimate sense, they won't. We will still live in a corrupt system until Jesus Christ comes back. So you think of Jeremiah 31, right, the new covenant promises. God is going to bring this, he's going to change your heart. And I think we see that in Revelation as well. While we can acknowledge the good that governments do and acknowledge the evil that they do, we just ultimately don't put our hope in them. 

Darrell Bock: 

That has two other corollaries that I think are important, one of which we've mentioned, which is in the end God will establish justice. The proper recompense for actions will take place. People who make bad decisions will face the consequences of those decisions apart from the relief that the gospel does give. That kind of thing. That's one element of it. I think the other element is reminding ourselves that Jesus spent the entire second half of his discipleship program with the 12 and with the disciples saying, "You follow me the world's going to push back. You shouldn't expect to be treated well." 

In fact, 1 Peter 3 and the very famous passage where it says we're supposed to be prepared to give it offense for the hope that is within us begins by saying, "Do good." But then the next thing is, "But if you should be slandered for doing good you are blessed." And so I call this box rule. Every good deed will get punished. When you think about the way in which discipleship is seen because it is counterculture, it is in one sense counter-political in the worldly sense of that term, we should expect pushback. I mean, we can try and portray ourselves as the victims but there's another sense in which we go "I shouldn't be surprised that I'm a victim here because of the pushback that Jesus said I would get for following him." 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. And as Peter shows in the text, Jesus is our ultimate example there. Jesus was the ultimate one who did good, he never did anything wrong. He never sinned against the government and the government killed him. He was crucified, he suffered. So 1 Peter says "Like no ill word came out of his mouth and he still suffered." What should we expect as sinners We're going to be punished. And Peter says, "But you need to suffer for doing good." 

Darrell Bock: 

And this- 

Patrick Schreiner: 

And I think- 

Darrell Bock: 

Go ahead, I'm sorry. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

The whole theology of 1 Peter is because your exiles here on this earth because you're sojourners. That's whole how the whole thing is set up. And so if you're an exile and sojourner you shouldn't expect to be accepted even if you're seeking to do good. This is where it's such a paradox. I keep on going back to that word. That we're to do all of these things, we're to seek the good of the city, but then I think we're tempted, as you said, to expect that people will start cheering and clapping for us. I just don't think that's going to happen. 

Darrell Bock: 

The other element of that 1 Peter passage that I love is a little reminder that comes, why are we willing to suffer for doing what's right? And as you said, Jesus is the example. But there's a little curveball in that explanation because, in the midst of, explaining how Jesus has died in effect for the ungodly, there's a reminder to bring you to God. He personalize it. And the reminder is, when you're back was turned to God, when you were rebelling, God took the initiative with you. My line is, you should never forget where you came from. That when you engage with the world you never forget where you came from. That when your back was turned to God, God reached out to you, and so now you have the opportunity to occupy that same space. To reach out to someone whose back is turned to God and invite them into the relationship with God that has the potential to restore them and make sense out of their life. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. I think that's really helpful. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, we ended up with an exposition of Jeremiah 29 in full. That passage really is to me one of the most important passages in thinking through how you face engagement and how you deal with these tensions that we're dealing with. I'm going to say it this way. What it means to be political without being political and what it means to be political without being partisan. What it means to be ... To represent Christ. And what the community of relationship with God and the kingdom of God in the midst of the world is supposed to be. To do it in a way that makes sense for why the kingdom of God exists in the midst of the world. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. And one of my big encouragements to people as well in the political realm is ... I know this is a popular phrase, but just to be a non-anxious presence in the culture. In other words, Christians are people who ultimately have their hope in Jesus Christ. And so wherever the political system or party or whatever it may be goes, you don't have to get all worried and wrapped up in it. Because I think we can stand out from the world in this because politics has become the new religion. Politics has become the new identity marker of who are you. Well, I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm left. I'm right, I'm this, I'm that. People don't know how to define themselves anymore without these categories. 

In Christians, we have an identity marker that's deeper and stronger than that. When something happens that we might disagree with or we might even have some worries about, ultimately though I think we can be a calm and peaceful presence in the midst of our society and say, "This is not where our hope lies. We care about these things because we care about humanity but it's not ultimate for us. This is secondary for us. We're waiting for Christ and his kingdom." I know when you say those things, sometimes people think "Oh, that means you just eject yourself from society." No, I'm not saying that. You got to balance all of these things together. 

Darrell Bock: 

That leaves us with one space that we have very little time for but I do want to introduce as we close and that is ... So the tensions that we felt within the church for people who view the partisan space differently raises another question. I actually think this is a litmus test in some ways of how central your Christian commitment is in the face of your partisan political commitments. And that is, is my relationship to my brother and sister in Christ, who I may or may not agree with politically, a stronger tie than my partisan politics which has been divisive in the church. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. And I heard one author or pastor say, "You're more united to your African, Asian, Chinese brother or sister that lives halfway around the world than from you, in the Christian sense than your neighbor who votes the same as you who's not a Christian." And I think that's just saying exactly what you just said. We are more united in Christ. I would hope that churches in the future and currently can be those who represent maybe both political parties and that we can be united in Jesus Christ and recognize those things are secondary. The whole purpose of my book is to say, you have a first politic, and the first politic is the gospel. And so you're united under that banner first and then you can begin to have discussions about the other things. And the other things are not unimportant, they are important, but they are secondary. 

Darrell Bock: 

You've said in a different way what I like to say which is, the first passport that I have is the passport that says Kingdom of God. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I'm a citizen and an ambassador for God. And if I do that well I will represent fallenness wherever it falls on the political spectrum whether on the left or the right, and be able to call it out whether it's on the left or the right and recognize that. No one side in the partisan discussion is probably anywhere close to having the truth put together. And then depending on which space you're in might indicate whether you are affirming or challenging what it is that's an offer. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. I use those terms. I introduce them earlier throughout the book, subvert and submit. And one of my fears with the book is that people will pick it up and just be confirmed in their political position right now. If I'm Republican or Democrat I'm going to submit to the Republicans but then I'll subvert the Democrats. But my point in the book is that those two actions, subverting and submitting, applies to both parties and both governing systems. We need to recognize, no, we don't fit wholly in either one but that we both subvert and submit to both of them in unique ways. And so I hope that it comes actually as a challenge and a reminder of what the scriptures call us to. 

Darrell Bock: 

Whether you're an oasis or an exile, what you're saying is you're different than the way the world is functioning. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's right. 

Darrell Bock: 

And what you need in the divine space that is occupied by the forgiveness that Christ offers and by the empowerment that comes by the Spirit is an enablement and an empowerment that you can't find in the world. If we aren't talking about that part of our message then we are falling short of what it means to represent and be the people of God on this earth. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

That's exactly right. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, that's probably a good place to land the plane. I want to thank you, Patrick, for being a part of this conversation and for helping us think through what is a challenging space, and is a space, as I said, that a lot of people are afraid to talk about. But we've tried hopefully to do it in a way that gets people thinking and that has some balance to it in terms of how we face our role as citizens on the one hand of both the kingdom and citizens in the particular country that we live in. So I thank you for helping us with that. 

Patrick Schreiner: 

Thanks, Darrell, good talking to you. 

Darrell Bock: 

And we're glad you could be a part of The Table, we hope you'll join us again soon. If you're interested in other podcasts on The Table you can go to voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast where you can see one of the almost 500 plus episodes that we've put together in the last 10 years. And we hope you'll join us again soon.