The Christian Presence in Australia

Darrell Bock: 

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Darrell Bock and I am Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And our guests are two Australians, Simon Smart, who is in Sydney, probably you qualify as the guest who is furthest away from us when we have recorded, I'm guessing because it takes a good 18-hour flight to get to you from Dallas. And then John Dickson, who normally would be in Sydney at least in a past life, but now is teaching at Wheaton College and a Green Bay Packers fan. And Americanized as you can get, right John? 

John Dickson: 

Except for the accent. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's exactly right. 

John Dickson: 

I think my accent has got more Australian in the year that I've been here. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I do that too when I say I'm in Texas and I'm in Australia, we can both play that game. Anyway, so it's great to be with you guys. Our topic is Australia. We're going to talk about the church in Australia, the situation that exists. I'm going to begin with you, Simon. You work for the Centre for Public Christianity, and just to make it clear that you are in Australia, that's spelled C-E-N-T-R-E, okay? That'll give some of our American friends pause. But anyway, talk a little bit about why the Centre existed and why you and John created a Centre in Australia for the church? 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah, thanks Darrell. Good to see you. Good to see you, John. I'm just going to say I've done that Dallas to Sydney flight a number of times and it's a long one, especially when you sit up the back. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's a long one. There aren't enough good movies. 

Simon Smart: 

Anyway. Yeah, so it's good fun to be with you. Well, it's 15 years ago that John, we got together with a few others, and it was John's idea, by the way, but I think we both felt very keenly that in Australia there's a huge amount of misunderstanding really, about what's core to Christianity. So we set out to, we've continued to do that, to try to promote the public understanding of the Christian faith, which we feel like is really lacking in Australia. And I thought, sure, we'll talk about why that might be. But that was the aim. And so, we thought we want to direct everything we do to the secular person and try to find ways of having better conversations about what's called to Christianity, what it might have to say to contemporary life. 

And we do that in a bunch of different ways with writing for mainstream media, which we've done a lot of, John will remember when we set out to try to do this, we weren't sure how that would go, but it's gone pretty well actually. And we've tried to find a way to be in those spaces where often your public Christian voices are absent or perhaps not quite the tone that you would love to see all the time. So we thought there'd be a role to play there in being a voice that's clear, thoughtful, respectful, and engaging. We've tried to do that in lots of different ways, documentaries, public events, all that sort of stuff. 

Darrell Bock: 

John, and one of the things that you've tried to emphasize is that Christians need to be better listeners about what's going on around them as they interact. Talk a little bit about that because that's probably the reverse of the way. Most Christians think, "I've got this new good news to share. I just want to share it." Talk a little bit about that dimension of what you all do at the Centre, have done at the Centre. 

John Dickson: 

Well, in emphasizing listening, it's not in any way taking away from, we have a message. I mean, Simon described it as communicating, creating the public understanding of the Christian faith. So there's content, but the thing is, unless you're really listening, you don't know how the content is coming across. So it's one thing to have a message, but unless you're really listening to people's emphasis, passions, biases, preferences, and so on, you have no idea how what you are saying is being heard. And so CPX from the beginning had a message. I mean, we're a bunch of talkers and writers, but listening just lets you know where you are, where you're situated, and what are people thinking before you open your big mouth. And if you've listened enough, when you open your big mouth, hopefully they hear what you think you are saying. It's as simple as that. It's not rocket science. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, interesting. Well, yeah, and of course, I tell people all the time, there are major obstacles between the Christian message and where many secular people are. They don't have some of the categories that we assume in our message. So we may be communicating something we think is totally clear, but people don't even have a category for receiving some of what we say. And so becoming aware of that and being sensitive for that is important. 

So let's take a step back and talk about Australia for a second. Basic facts, population, how many states does it have or provinces, however you want to do that. Oh, by the way, I was going to say CPX is the abbreviation for the Centre for Public Christianity, for those of you who don't speak in code. So how many states do you have? What's the population? What's the Christian population or Sunday attendance and the evangelical population? So let's run through some of those stats if you have them between the two of you, and we'll see where that lands. 

Simon Smart: 

Between the two of us we should be able to get something out here. 

John Dickson: 

Five states and two territories. 

Darrell Bock: 

Is it five states and two territories? 

John Dickson: 

Six states if you include Tasmania, do we include Tasmania tonight? 

Darrell Bock: 

Now, I didn't plan on opening any inner Aussie debate here, but Tasmania is its own place. 

John Dickson: 

I really hope this doesn't broadcast to my very dear friends in Hobart. I think we're shooting- 

Darrell Bock: 

Capital of Tasmania for those of you don't know where Hobart is. But anyway, very cool. So I don't think I can name them all. Let me see if I can name them all. This would be a good test of my American, Aussie. So Tasmania, we'll count it. Okay. Victoria, Queensland. 

John Dickson: 

You just jumped over a state. 

Darrell Bock: 

Western Australia. Well, what have I left out? New South Wales. Right? Okay. And so I'm missing one, what is it? Northern Territories? 

John Dickson: 

South Australia. 

Simon Smart: 

South Australia. 

Darrell Bock: 

South Australia, okay. 

John Dickson: 

And then the two territories. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the two territories. Northern Territory. I don't know what the other territory is, I don't think I've ever known. 

John Dickson: 

The Australian Capital- 

Simon Smart: 

ACT. 

John Dickson: 

Territory. It's where our national capital is. It's where Canberra is. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Canberra is- 

Simon Smart: 

It's essentially just the city really and a tiny bit more, but- 

John Dickson: 

They couldn't decide where to put the capital of Australia, Sydney and Melbourne just were arch rivals. So they basically- 

Darrell Bock: 

I can't understand that at all. 

John Dickson: 

Basically counted to the middle and plunked a capital there in the middle of- 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, the great compromise, huh? 

John Dickson: 

And now I've just lost our friends in Canberra. 

Simon Smart: 

You're losing friends here- 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, you're carrying off the country one answer at a time. So okay, population. 

Simon Smart: 

Can we geo block this program? The population's 26 million people roundabout. It's on the census, so where people will tick, I have some sort of religious affiliation and there's a lot to talk about and what they mean by that. But that's one measure, let's stick with that. So the people who would tick Christian is 43.9% and that's dropped very quickly in the last several years. So the one before that was 52% in 2016, the one before that was 61%. So it's dropping very quickly. The people who would be happy to tick that. I remember John and I used to talk about this, we thought this latest census would drop below 50%, but I don't think John, at least I didn't think it would be quite as far down as- 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, I thought it would drop to maybe 47, 48%, something like that, just below. 

Simon Smart: 

So it ended up being 43.9. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, it's dramatic. And of course the no religion crew have increased with the same success that Christianity's declined. 

Darrell Bock: 

So where is that now? 

John Dickson: 

39% 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, so you're ahead of us here in the States. The States has a 30% number for what are known as the nones. And then I always have to say that's not N-U-N-S. So those who don't claim a religious affiliation. So is what has happened, well, I can ask it this way. So what is happening in Australia, kind of like what's happening in the States and that there's a younger generation that is coming along that is not as religiously inclined as the older generations in our country have been, or is this a pattern that's been part of the Australian life from the beginning? 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah. Can I just say in answer to that, Darrell, we often like to tell the story of the first chaplain to the colony of New South Wales. The chaplain's name is Richard Johnson. He was a colleague friend of John Newton, William Wilberforce, those sorts of people. He was a very popular chaplain. CPX's public lecture every year is named after him. But he among many other things in the colony, built the first church out of his own funds. And that church was then promptly burnt to the ground by the convicts. So we often say there was an uncomfortable relationship with religion ever since that moment. And it's true. Australians have a weird, I'd love to talk more about this today because they have a weird relationship with religion. It was pretty like a lot of, I can you imagine it was sort of built into the culture in lots of ways institutionally and culturally for a long time. But it's always been, there's this sort of anti-authoritarian streak in Australians. And so that's kind of been there all the way through, but it has been in our lifetime, it's really dramatically shifted. 

So back when I was a kid, even if you weren't a real church goer, let's say you're going to get married, you'd turn up at the church to get married, that would've been just a natural thing to do. It's almost no one would do that now. It's like unless they're committed kind of Christian person. So these sorts of indicators are interesting to me because that was once a thing you would do. But even in the last 50 years, that's changed a lot. So most people now would have a non-religious celebrant including, and this is sometimes a surprise to me, but including for funerals as well. So yeah, it's been a big shift. You've got a generation of people now that have had really no meaningful contact with Christianity. So it presents a really interesting, doesn't it John, that kind of moment really to speak to people who have both a baggage, there's still a bit of resentment about the church and claims to authority of the church, but a deep naivety in terms of what it's actually about. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. There's a famous Australian historian, Patrick O'Farrell, who was the first to describe Australia as the first genuinely post-Christian society. And he named that in an essay he wrote way back in 1975. So in 1975, they were describing Australia as a post-Christian society. So it is something that's been in our tradition for a long while and the parable of, well, the fact, but the parable of the burning down of our first church, as Simon said, is often brought to bear on this. So there is this strain of anti Christianity that's always been there, but what we've seen in recent decades and the dramatic decline, I think is partly the younger generation not going to church and not having Sunday school and not having any religious input. And part of it is the loss of social credibility in saying that you are a Christian. 

So 30 years ago there was still some social value in saying you were a Christian or involved in a church, but there's been a moral credibility and crisis in credibility that has meant that even those who thought vaguely that they were a Christian, the kind of nominal, socially respectable, "Yeah, I'm a Christian." They have said, "No, I'm not ticking that box anymore. There's no value to it anymore." I think that is a real part of this story. It's not the whole story, but it's a genuine part of the story. 

And in a way, it's going to just keep going until the real number of genuine Christians for whom there is no social value in saying you're a Christian, is revealed by the data and it might be as low as 20% in Australia. So I think we've got a long way to go from 44%. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. And this is happening here too, the number of people who are culturally Christian, Christian because the environment allowed you to affirm it and it gave you some spiritual connection, that number is dropping here in the states as well. And that has some element of the adjustment in our own numbers. But that's not the only thing that's happening, there is just a general reduction as well. And the risk of losing here, we've got the risk of course of losing an entire generation of people to the faith as these numbers change. I need to go back and collect one piece of Australian history so that people who don't know Australia's history will appreciate it. And that is, Australians origins aren't the most honorable at their start. Is that a fair way to put it? 

John Dickson: 

I won't have that said. We take great pride in the fact that we come from British convicts. 

Darrell Bock: 

From British convicts, that's right. 

John Dickson: 

You can have your pilgrim fathers with their prayers and Psalm singing, we are rum drinking, swearing, anti-royalty thieves. And- 

Simon Smart: 

And we're proud of it. In fact- 

Darrell Bock: 

The word penal, the word penal is honored in the roots of Australia, is that correct? 

Simon Smart: 

If people trace their ancestry, they'd be glad to. It's actually true, people would be glad to say, "Oh no, our ancestors were convicts. They weren't part of the establishment." 

John Dickson: 

It's even worse than that because anyone who can say they're related to Ned Kelly, who is the most notorious bushranger. I don't know, what's the equivalent in America- 

Simon Smart: 

Means thief, bandit. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, a bandit out in the Wild West. So if you are somehow related to Ned Kelly it's a thing of pride, it's truly weird. And our genuine national song is not Advance Australia Fair, it's Waltzing Matilda, right? And if anyone goes and listens to that, it's a song about someone escaping the police who jumps into a billabong and dies rather than get caught by the cops. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh my goodness. What a horrible starting place. 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah, that's true. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, I always knew Australia was different, I just didn't know how different it was. So the evangelical population in Australia, where does that fit? What's that percentage? Well, you said, let me do one other thing before I go there. You said population around 26 million. Did I get that number right? How many of those are in Sydney and how many of those people are in Melbourne? Those are the two big cities. 

John Dickson: 

Yes, it's about four to five in the Sydney area and three to four in Melbourne. I think that's about right, Simon? 

Simon Smart: 

Almost. It's actually changed, John, since you've been away. 

John Dickson: 

What have you been doing? 

Simon Smart: 

Melbourne's been growing- 

Darrell Bock: 

John is not an activist to America. Go ahead. 

Simon Smart: 

Melbourne's been growing and they're much closer to, and depending on how you divide it all up, this year they reported that Melbourne had just tipped above Sydney. 

John Dickson: 

I don't believe it. 

Simon Smart: 

I'm afraid to tell you. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh, really? So Melbourne is now the largest city in Australia? 

Simon Smart: 

According to the figures this year. But it's a good point to raise about the population of Australia, because they're mostly in huge, a couple of big metropolitan centers, Sydney, Melbourne, and then they hug the coast as well. So the eastern seaboard, most of the population's there and then hugging the coast and huge parts of Australia are kind of uninhabitable. That's a similar size geographically. 

Darrell Bock: 

I've been told that if you drive in Western Australia and leave Perth and go North, that you'll go North and North and North and North and North and North and not see almost anything. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, if you fly from Sydney to Perth and try and look out for cities along the way, you won't spot one. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, yeah. 

John Dickson: 

It's nothing like- 

Darrell Bock: 

East Coast to West Coast. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, East Coast to West. It's nothing like flying New York to L.A. 

Simon Smart: 

No. I'm always struck by that if I have flown in the US that you just look down and you see city after city after city. It's the absolute reverse in Australia. You can watch a movie- 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, we're 10 times bigger than you are in population easily. 

Simon Smart: 

So yeah, you can watch a movie then look out the window and the view hasn't changed. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, so let's come to the makeup of the church in Australia, particularly evangelicals. Let's do Protestants, Catholics, evangelicals, and then I'll ask about other religions. 

Simon Smart: 

I'm hoping John might note some of this. So Catholics, I think I'm right in saying 20% of the population. Does that seem about right to you, John? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. Yep. 

Simon Smart: 

Anglicans are 9.8%, but that wouldn't mean evangelical and we'll talk about that. And then there's a category of not a mainline denomination, which is that's the one area that's growing. There's sort of non affiliated, which has got to about 2.7% evident. 

Darrell Bock: 

Do those groups tend to be evangelical? 

Simon Smart: 

Yes. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, Pentecostal. 

Simon Smart: 

Pentecostal. 

Darrell Bock: 

Pentecostal? 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. So Pentecostal movement is growing in Australia? 

John Dickson: 

Yes, it's taken some hits in recent years. 

Darrell Bock: 

Because that's Hillsong, right? 

John Dickson: 

Yep. Yeah. And our friends out at Hillsong have taken some real hits, but overall the trend is that Pentecostals are growing, most mainlines are not, most of the mainlines are declining. There's a different story with Sydney Anglicans. They're a particular kind of Anglican, they tend to be not mainstream, traditional, nominal. They tend to be more sort of passionate evangelical. And they're not growing, but well, they are factually growing, but not quite with the population increase. So they're growing but not quite at replacement level you might say. But nonetheless. 

Darrell Bock: 

They tend to be reformed in Sydney? 

John Dickson: 

Reformed- 

Simon Smart: 

Tend to be reformed. 

John Dickson: 

Evangelical, Anglican. I know that's weird for an American audience, but you need to think of J.I. Packer, John Stott, Dick Lucas, Vaughan Roberts to think of a Sydney Anglican. It's more like J.I. Packer than- 

Darrell Bock: 

I see. 

John Dickson: 

I don't know, I won't name names. 

Darrell Bock: 

I was about to say. 

Simon Smart: 

I was waiting. 

Darrell Bock: 

So what percentage of the population would that be? Is that well under 10%, 8%, something like that? What's the- 

John Dickson: 

The Evangelicals? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Dickson: 

Well under 10%. I don't have the figure to hand. I would say it's probably something like three or 4%. Simon, have you got any data on that? 

Simon Smart: 

I don't, but I do know that it's still the case that, no, I don't particularly on evangelical, but it would be low. Christian Church all over would be about once... People who go once a month would be about 15%- 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, 15% go to church once a month but that includes Catholics, Orthodox, everybody. 

Simon Smart: 

That's everybody. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. 

Simon Smart: 

But on any given Sunday, it's closer to about 8% of people. 

Darrell Bock: 

But that makes you twice as religious as the UK, right? Because the UK is about half that number, isn't it? Or less? 

John Dickson: 

I'm not sure. I know that the UK just last year announced that they too had dropped to below 50% claiming to be Christians. They dropped to 47% in the UK. I was there just last November when it was announced. And just as happened in Australia, in the Uk, the media had a field day. Now Christians are a minority, now the data proves they're a minority. Why are we giving them so many privileges? That was the kind of story both in Australia and in the UK. I mean, it's a good question, but my secret thought was, man, we've been a minority, a real minority for a long time, the data's just catching up. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, interesting. So obviously this produces challenges for the church to be, one might also suggest there's some benefits in having the people who identify as Christian as really being committed to Christianity and not being just culturally there on the one hand, but on the other hand being so few, there's no confusion. One of the things I actually find interesting in going to Australia coming from the US is, no one is pretending to have any social, political, cultural power of significance. Everyone knows they are a minority and have to function as a minority in the country. So talk about the challenges that face Christianity. You've talked about the public perception of Christianity in Australia. What is it that you felt like you needed to provide for people? 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah, there are lots of challenges. In Australia, there's just a huge amount of apathy as well when it comes to thinking about deep human questions. And we're always trying to provoke the imaginations of people to ask these sort of questions. And particularly at CPX, we're trying to look at what are the foundational things that you've build your life on and what does it mean to be a human being? What's the shape of the good life? Where am I going to get meaning and satisfaction and these sorts of things. I don't think Australians have been good at answering those sorts of questions or even addressing them. We're very good at distracting ourselves. There's a sort of superficiality in that way. 

It might come from, there was Australian very famous rock band called Midnight Oil, and they had a song called, "Too Much Sunshine." And I've often wondered about that. Australia has a very kind of hedonistic, especially in certain parts of the country approach to life. It's all about the good times and the weekends and being out on your boat or doing whatever it is, fun thing you can do. And there's a sense that people live in pretty, they live a very materially prosperous life here. And it might be that question of if you feel like you're already in heaven, you don't need to think about those sort of questions. 

So on the one hand, I'd say that a thin, I've sometimes described it as a thin layer of resentment, but over a sea of apathy, people really are quite apathetic. But on the other hand, we have huge and interesting and sobering statistics on things like loneliness and disaffection and anxiety and suicide rates and all these sorts of things. And I'm always trying to pay attention to those as I sit alongside other stats. And to say that human beings are human beings everywhere, and they do need a big story to belong to, they do need answers to longings that they have. And we feel like, yes, on the one hand you could get depressed about what's happening in terms of a spiritual conversation in Australia, but on the other hand there are great opportunities to talk to people about these things and find ways into the conversation. 

I really, really like what John was saying earlier about becoming good listeners, as not just as people working in the work we do, but as a Christian community to really loving the community around you. And you have to know them well to do that. They say two thirds of people in Australia say they don't have a close friend who's a Christian. And that for me is a very telling thing. The need, the opportunity is for Christians to be out in their communities, living lives of service of the common good in order to provoke that, well to do what they should be doing, and also to invite the question of why you live like this or why you're that kind of person? So yeah, I think that there are huge challenges, it'd be silly to kind of play those down, but also- 

John Dickson: 

But the interesting thing- 

Simon Smart: 

Great opportunities. 

John Dickson: 

Well, yeah, on that opportunity side, one of the curious things about Australia, we've talked about the decline of religion, but there's a lot of enduring background belief. It tends to be shut out because of apathy as Simon said. 

But there is some interesting data just from 2021, I just called it up as you were talking, Simon, that McCrindle Research conducted in 2021 to find out what people thought about the resurrection. They asked Australians whether they believe in the resurrection, and I've got the data in front of me. Those who were certain it didn't happen in Australia was only 15% certain it didn't happen. Those who think it's really unlikely, 12%. Okay, so let's just add 15 and 12, right? It's 27 or it's 28 with the little points, so 28%. So under a third are skeptical about the resurrection. Those who said, I don't know, 28%. Okay, but the most extraordinary thing from this survey is those who are certain Jesus rose again from the dead, 23% in Australia. Okay, those who think it's possible, Jesus Christ rose from the dead, 20%. So 43% of Australians are open to the resurrection and then another 28 aren't sure. And then you've got this smaller section that's really skeptical. 

And the reason I point that out is, if it's true that Australia is the future of America, as in the data in America is about 10 years behind in secularization, it's not all depressing. There's this sort of memory of an echo of Christianity that's still in our culture. That's one of the relics of being a post-Christian culture. There is stuff sitting there ready to be activated. And it might be the case that people have a perception of Christians, as bullies say, but sitting right alongside that perception is the memory that Christians, they're the ones like the Salvos, the Salvation Army who will be feeding the homeless and caring for people and opening hospitals and so on. So there's two Christianity sitting in a post-Christian head- 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah. 

John Dickson: 

And it's the easiest thing to activate one or the other of them. The smallest hint that you're a bully Christian will activate this whole perception of Christians as bullies. But the smallest hint of kindness and compassion and other person's centeredness activates this memory. Oh yeah, that's what Christians are like on their best day. 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

So this brings me to a project that you guys did that is really I think a model in some ways for the engagement that you're talking about. When you're a cultural minority, you're trying to establish who you are and talk about who you are. Now, I can't for the life of me ever remember the name of this project. I call it the good, the bad and the ugly of Christianity. But- 

Simon Smart: 

Darrell- 

Darrell Bock: 

What was this project and how was it received? Yeah, go ahead, Simon. 

Simon Smart: 

Well, first of all, we'll be testing you next time we see to make sure you do know. 

Darrell Bock: 

I need to remember, you're right. I need to remember. I need to be a good student and remember the title of faith. 

Simon Smart: 

So our historical documentary called, "For the Love of God: How the Church is Better and Worse Than You Ever Imagined." Is a very large project we took on a few years ago. 

Darrell Bock: 

Long title too. 

Simon Smart: 

Long title, but I think it said a lot better or worse might be your little summary to help you remember. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

Simon Smart: 

And it was a big project we took on because one of the things we noticed is we do a lot of stuff in mainstream media. So we'll write for media all the time and what we got over and over again. I remember John and I used to talk about this, what are we going to do? Because we'd get some responses that we'd say, "Yes, yeah, whatever. Great." But what about the inquisition, the support of slavery, the crusades, the witch trials, the oppression of women, and there was this sort of long list of complaints about Christianity. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you're saying when you first founded you were doing this effort to say what Christianity is, and this was the pushback you were getting? 

Simon Smart: 

Exactly. And we looked at each other a few times and said, "Well, it's a long list and it's a valid list. That's a valid list." We had to say that we had to go, well, anyone who knows anything about history knows that there's a point to be made here. But we thought, okay, we've got to take this on. And we did, and I'll let John pick up here, but we thought it was worth answering it. And we did in a very big project that nearly killed all of us- 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. 

Simon Smart: 

But we think it was a good one. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. So I mean, we went to, I don't know, 15 different countries, took a couple of years to film. Three of us hosted it up front, but there was an army of people behind the scenes putting it together. And in the end, it's for nearly one hour episodes that track through church history asking the question is, would we be better off without Christianity? And the answer is, some forms of Christianity, you betcha. 

The project definitely was open and honest about the failures of Christians, and we took our cue from Jesus who said to His disciples, "You hypocrite, why do you look at the spec in someone else's eye when there's a plank or a log in your own eye?" He's saying that to His disciples. So we just felt like it was an attempt to look at the log. 

And so we got some criticism from Christians more than anyone else, for being a little too honest about Christian participation in slavery and the crusades and the inquisitions and so on. And we didn't take the easy course of saying, "Oh, they weren't really Christians." Or even worse, "Oh, that was the Catholics." "Oh, those Catholics with their inquisitions and crusades." That's too cheap. You just got to read what Luther wrote about Jews to see he more than made up for time. And then of course the Protestant slave slavers. So that was not an argument. 

So we were very honest, but that I hope gave us permission to do good history and not just bash the church and point out that in fact, Christianity gave the world some of the things it loves most. The notion of human rights didn't come from Greece or Rome, certainly didn't come from Thomas Jefferson. It came from the doctrine of the image of God, from the Jewish scriptures through its Christian transposition, the ethic of humility, charity for all, the birth of hospitals, schooling for rich and poor, boys and girls alike. None of these things can have come from Greece and Rome. But they did come from the Judeo-Christian way of looking at the world. And I know the language of Judeo-Christian is fraught now because it sometimes code for white. That's not what we mean at all. It's the Jewish and Christian influence on the world, gave us some beautiful things. And in the end- 

Darrell Bock: 

Suppose to do these things each other, right? 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, you do. And I'll let Simon sort of tell the punchline because we had a message in the end. 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah. So we're absolutely right, and we thought we can tell, but we should be honest about the bad, but tell this really good story that runs parallel all the way through Christian history. We got to tell some great stories we can be very glad of. Everyone can be glad of. But then the punchline was really, and there was an image we used, which was John's. There was a genius move from John. I have to give him all that credit. But it was just- 

John Dickson: 

Oh, my one moment. 

Simon Smart: 

No, you've had plenty but this is a good one. I hope I described this well enough to do it justice. But the idea of was a metaphor or an image of a beautiful tune that Jesus writes for the world, "Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you." And the way He not only said it, but lived it out, this servant leadership. And so the images of a glorious composition that Jesus writes and his followers have in various ways tried to play. And sometimes they've played it so discordant and terribly, it's almost unrecognizable from the tune dreadful result, that's true. It's also true that some have fumbled along and tried to play and sometimes played it absolutely beautifully, and we've all benefited as a result. But the key was to say, let's judge that on its best performance and not its worst. And let's point people back to the person who composed the tune. So it was a real attempt to push people to who Jesus is and what was he like and what did he leave for us? And have them ponder that as they weigh up the different aspects of Christians. 

Darrell Bock: 

And the thing I found interesting about the project is the way it was received, not by the church, but by people outside the church. Talk a little bit about that. 

John Dickson: 

Pretty well. Pretty well, it got reviewed- 

Darrell Bock: 

I mean, didn't it end up in theaters across Australia? 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, it played in, I don't know, 30 theaters. 

Simon Smart: 

We had 20,000 people buy tickets for that. And then on television. 

John Dickson: 

And then it was on ABC TV, which is I guess- 

Darrell Bock: 

Australian Broadcasting Company- 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Am I right? 

John Dickson: 

So it's like the BBC. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Dickson: 

But people actually watched that channel. So it was a great privilege and it got some good writeups as well. We had some atheist people say, "This is surprisingly good. Maybe Christianity's not as dumb and mean as we thought." Which is a great win. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you were attempting to be honest and crash a stereotype at the same time, right? 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah, we were. 

Darrell Bock: 

And on that, you probably had some success in terms of saying, "Christianity's more complicated than you may have thought." That kind of thing. 

Simon Smart: 

Absolutely. And Darrell, it's still, we pointed it out, was it four or five years ago now, John? But it's still used a lot, especially in schools in Australia and independent schools, which is a big part of the school sector. It's about 30% of the school sector, I think. It's used a lot there and people still use it in universities and churches and whatever else. And here's my ad for it because you can get on our website. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's where I was going next. Okay, go for it. 

Simon Smart: 

You can go get it. You can buy the whole thing or you can use segments. You can just pick up individual segments, none of them are more than 10 minutes. And so they're kind of useful in a whole lot of different contexts. And at the risk of sounding like we're still promoting, I just think it has been received as really useful. 

John Dickson: 

Well, given I don't work at the Centre for Public Christianity anymore- 

Simon Smart: 

You can just. 

John Dickson: 

Let me just say it is phenomenal. I mean, yes, you can buy all four episodes, but actually these guys have released little segments completely free of charge that you can just go to the website and watch tons and tons of segments. And then they've also produced a curriculum that goes with it that you can use and guide people through it. So it's definitely- 

Darrell Bock: 

And this isn't just about Australian history, this is global Christianity that we're talking about- 

John Dickson: 

Oh, it's hardly about Australia at all. 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah, there's a little bit of Australia. No, it's global. 

John Dickson: 

Little bit of Australia. Yeah. 

Simon Smart: 

And we interview over 50 true experts in this thing. And we took the approach of let's go to the top people that we can find that we can get access to. And we've got some amazing people in this. And it helped to, I think, give what needed, which was real credibility, who's the best crusade scholar, this sort of stuff. So we really were pleased with how that went because I think we needed the credibility of that. 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, I think it's an interesting example of a testimony of a group that's a cultural minority speaking up for itself, being honest about what they've been, et cetera, dealing with the perception of Christianity that's out there. I tell people in the States that if you are meeting someone who's never darkened the door of a church, their definition of Christianity is coming from one or two places, the Christians that they know. And you've already cited a statistic that usually that's not very many or what the culture says about Christianity. And then my next question is, how many of you would like your Christianity defined on that basis? And so that becomes the challenge. And so to be who the church is and to be honest about what the church is and to be even self-aware enough to know that that's part of your history, all of that it seems to me is pretty beneficial. 

And you guys know how highly I think of the Centre and what it does in Australia and the way it tries to represent Christ and the history of Christianity faithfully. I can say it in the good, the bad and the ugly. And to do it in a way that says, yeah, but what we're really about is this aspirational and real life that Jesus Christ can give to people if you'll really connect with what it is that He's about and come to understand it. And I just see that as extremely valuable in terms of the way in which Christian communities need to function in a context in which they're minority. 

I didn't ask one question about Australia, I probably should have asked earlier, but I'm going to cover it now. And that is when it comes to other religions, what's the makeup of Australian? How much is that changing more recently with all the diaspora movement that we see in all parts of the world? What's that look like? 

Simon Smart: 

Yep. 

Darrell Bock: 

John's probably got the figures- 

Simon Smart: 

I've got a few figures here. So it's still a really small part of the religious makeup of the nation. And it's nearly all, a lot of this is through migration. We have very big levels of migration to Australia. So we have Islam is at 3.2% of the population. Those who are Hindu, and these of course are people migrating to Australia on the whole. 2.7%, Hindu, 2.4% Buddhists. There's tiny other percentages. Sikhs... It's quite a, I mean, you get a representation of a big range of different religions, but at this point are still really quite small percentage-wise. 

Darrell Bock: 

So is that going up over the recent years versus what it used to be? 

Simon Smart: 

It's going up. And that would be largely through migration. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. For example, in census, Hinduism was the fastest growing religion. It wasn't because Hindus are evangelizing because immigration from India. 

Darrell Bock: 

They're coming in. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

And of course the other issue that you all have had in your past that's unique to you all, well maybe it isn't unique, it's the thing that happens in a variety of places. Is your relationship to the aboriginal population and the issues that has raised for you all. Maybe the analogy is the American Indian issue with us here in the States, but I know that that's another issue that triggers reaction in the country. 

John Dickson: 

Yeah, rightly so. I mean, in some ways it's even worse in Australia than what happened in America. I mean, at least the American founders tried to have treaties with indigenous people in America. I know you didn't keep many of your treaties, to put it mildly- 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. 

John Dickson: 

But we didn't even- 

Simon Smart: 

Do that. 

John Dickson: 

Condescend to have any kind of treaty with indigenous people. They were like non-entities in the way we treated them. And there have been lots of attempts to care for them and so on, but we've never made up for what we've done to indigenous people. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah. One of the things that stands out to me, and you probably won't like it back, I'm going to bring this up, but is the difference between the way the aborigines were treated in Australia and what I see or since happened in New Zealand. 

John Dickson: 

Oh, absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

And that there's a big difference between the way, basically the same problem was handled in two different contexts. 

John Dickson: 

Well, the Maori were able to fight back and force the settlers to a treaty. Indigenous people in Australia just weren't able to be in that powerful enough position, and so lost out. And Simon and I would both tell you probably, I don't know how you just voted, but I'm pretty sure how you voted, Simon. There was just a loss of a national referendum to change our constitution to recognize indigenous people and give them a voice to parliament. And sadly, it went down 60/40 against this. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I'm aware of that. 

John Dickson: 

I don't think we're in a very good position. Weirdly though, Darrell, percentage-wise there are more indigenous Christians than there are non-indigenous Christians in Australia, percentage-wise, as a percentage. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

Simon Smart: 

It's much higher, isn't it, than the general. 

Darrell Bock: 

So the missionary impact on the indigenous population is still having an effect. 

John Dickson: 

Partly that, and partly there was a big indigenous run revival in the 1970s throughout Australia. Some indigenous evangelists went nuts and loads of people became Christians and it's continuing to bear fruit. So God has been- 

Darrell Bock: 

What's the aboriginal population in Australia? Is that a question I can ask? 

John Dickson: 

It's tiny. Yeah, it's only about 4%. Depends how one counts it. And people are more or less willing to say they've got indigenous heritage. So it's a little bit difficult, but it's around 4%. 

Darrell Bock: 

Interesting. 

John Dickson: 

So it's nothing like the 18% of say African Americans. 

Darrell Bock: 

Right. 

John Dickson: 

I think it's about 18%. Is that somewhere? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, it's slightly small. I mean, the tricky thing in the US of course is you've got the African Americans and you've got the Hispanics and the Hispanic minority population is bigger now than the African American population, but the African American population has all the history behind it in terms of the impact on the nation. So that's the dynamic of what goes on here. 

Well, I just want to thank you all for helping us get a glimpse of Australia and what's behind it and a little bit about what the Centre for Public Christianity does and CPX as we love to call it. And by the way, Simon, where do you get access to those segments? I didn't give you a chance to tell people that. 

Simon Smart: 

Yeah, so publicchristianity.org is our website. You can find it all there. We have huge public library there of written and video material, audio material- 

Darrell Bock: 

All kinds of stuff. 

Simon Smart: 

All kinds of stuff. If you look for the document- 

John Dickson: 

We've even got Texans. We've got some Texans. 

Darrell Bock: 

I know, I'm tuck to away in some corners of that. 

Simon Smart: 

You can find Darrell if you look hard enough. And also probably worth saying Life & Faith Podcast, which we do every week. I'm sure you've been on that, Darrell, which we are proud of. We think it's a good podcast that you can always send to your friend, your uncle, your daughter, your sister who's not a believer, and look out for things that you think they might be interested in that. And that's the distinctive thing about what we do. Everything we produce when we're speaking to that microphone, pick up the pen, start to write, we're trying to write for that friend of yours who's not yet convinced. So that's worth saying. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, and that's another thing that I think I really appreciate is, is that you're very attuned to the non-believing audience as you do what you do. And that's a skill that the church desperately needs to pick up on. So thank you again for the time and for the willingness to update us. John, the more I see you keep your eye on the National Football League, the more I realize I have to appreciate Aussie rules football. Anyway. So thank you guys for being a part of this. We thank you for being a part of The Table, and we hope you'll join us again soon. If you want to see other episodes of The Table, that's voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast where you can see one of almost 600 episodes that we've made over the last decade.