Apologetics, AI, and Fiction

Kymberli Cook: 

Welcome to the Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. My name is Kymberli Cook and I am the assistant director of the Hendricks Center here at DTS. Today we're going to be doing something a little bit different. We are actually focusing specifically on a book, which we do not do very often, but our very own Michael Svigel has written a book called The AI Theist, is that how we say it? 

Michael Svigel: 

Yes. 

Kymberli Cook: 

The AI Theist, and it has several different layers to it that we thought were very interesting and very relevant to both theology and culture, which is what we do. So, we are committing a whole podcast to it. So thank you, Dr. Svigel, for the work and for being with us today. 

Michael Svigel: 

Thanks for having me. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Awesome. For the record, he is the... Let's see, make sure I say it right. Department Chair and Professor of Theological Studies here at Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Michael Svigel: 

Correct. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Then we are also joined by my boss once more, Darrell Bock, the Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Center and Senior Research Professor of New Testament here at DTS. He also happens to be a world renowned apologist, which is going to be relevant for our AI Theist book. So welcome, Darrell. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's my pleasure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So Dr. Svigel, for those who have not read the book, can you give a brief synopsis of what is involved so that they can be aware, and so that I don't step on anything and give away spoilers that you don't want given away? 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, we want to try to dance around the twists and turns. On the cover, it says, when a sentient AI system finds religion, its creator calls on a theologian turned atheist to cure it of its faith. So, it's basically fleshing out this idea of what happens if an AI system that becomes self-aware decides to embrace religion. Usually the sci-fi trope is the AI goes mad and tries to kill everybody in some way, shape, or form. I thought, what if we flip that and he is the protagonist, the one who embraces religion? 

In this case, he embraces Christianity in its conservative traditional form, and its creator decides it's slowing down the system. He's obsessing over religious things. So he phones a friend, calls in former theologian that has become an atheist for various reasons. What ensues is a dialogue back and forth through the chapters of the former theologian trying to convince this computer that Christianity is not true. That's the basic story. I don't want to give away the ending. 

Kymberli Cook: 

It's a really good read, just for the record. It's actually a novella, and so- 

Michael Svigel: 

A couple hours, yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... an hour and a half, two hours, you can work your way through it and it is a very good read. So you can see as Dr. Svigel walks through the different, I mean, just the plots of the story, that it hits major points. So it has AI, which is very much a culturally relevant conversation right now. It has theology, it has apologetics as an underlying theme throughout. There are a lot of things that are very much of interest to the center, and hopefully you can understand why we're talking about it today. 

So, let's start first with technology. So an AI entity is one of the main characters, and that obviously puts its thumb on a cultural conversation that is very relevant currently with AI, artificial intelligence. So just for the record, for those of you who are listening, we've done a number of podcasts on artificial intelligence, technology, transhumanism, lots of things in that realm. So feel free to go over to those podcasts and to search them on our website. If you want to wade into the technicalities, today specifically, we're actually going to be looking at and trying to surface if it's possible for technology to be an apologetic device or an apologetic tool. 

So in the book, it certainly functions as that, but do we actually see that in the real world? So with technology having that ability. Yeah, we'll get into lots of things there. So Darrell, you've done some work in anthropology, transhumanism, artificial reality. I don't know, artificial intelligence is a part of it, but you've been in that world with Fuz Rana who's also an apologist, all of that. What are your thoughts with regard to technology and their role as an apologetic tool? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, I think we've tended to talk about technology and Christian circles often in a negative way. We need to think about what its potential actually is in terms of helping us. It obviously helps us with all kinds of analysis that we engage in, that kind of thing. It has the potential to get us to information very, very quickly. I tell people I probably can write four or five times faster than I would otherwise if technology didn't exist. My son reminds me I don't have to walk to my study in order to find what I have to look up because of technology, so seeing technology not just as negative, but as potentially positive, being aware of its limits at the same time is of value. I'll just make the side note that if you are interested in what Fuz Rana and other people had to say, it's voice.dts.edu/tablepodcast, that it gets us to that site so that you can see what's on offer there. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Or there will be links right below this podcast, always. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's exactly right. Both, yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Okay. So, technology can be positive. How can it be an apologetic tool though? How does it help us represent the faith? Does it? 

Darrell Bock: 

Well, it can certainly help you find things that represent the faith in some of the search capabilities that it has and that thing. One of the interesting things is that the premise of the book is that AI matures to the point where it's able to make its own self-reference, and almost becomes part of the thinking that we do. I don't know if that result happens in real world or not, but it's an interesting premise to explore and to think about. But there's no doubt that technology, because it gives us access to a vast amount of information, makes available to people at the click and the right and the questioning for the right query information that otherwise might not be readily available to you. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So Dr. Svigel, did you do any research into this, or? You did? Okay. 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah. Yeah, I did some research into just artificial intelligence in general, trying to inform myself on it. As you know what it was when I was into sci-fi 30, 40 years ago, deep into it, it's totally changed. The language itself has changed and in a few years, it's going to be different even then. So things are just changing at such a rapid pace, but I'm with Darrell. I think number one, the tools that we have just to do the research, first of all, to explore an issue, you can type in a lot of these ChatGPT or whatever and ask just the three classic arguments, best arguments for the existence of God. 

It's going to give you something. It's going to give you a place to start. I think people can use it that way. But also the fact that pretty much everybody listening or watching this podcast is doing it on some device- 

Kymberli Cook: 

Technology. 

Michael Svigel: 

... the ability to broadcast and the ability to spread good and bad is a reality that we have to deal with, but we're able to engage with things in real time. Back in the old days, you'd have to wait until you'd become aware of some problem. But by that time, by the time someone's written a book on it's festered. We can begin to answer things in real time and post things and direct people as we've done already in this show. So, I think it has promise as well as problems. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I also think that there's something to, I guess, the overall trajectory of technology and what it reveals or could reveal about human fears, human drivers, that what it is that we're trying to accomplish through technology reveals something about what's going on in the human heart. Do y'all have any comments there? I mean, that helps at least undergird our apologetic efforts, right? 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah. It sounds eschatological, end times-y. People are going to immediately, and you see it today in media sources, people think about where is this going to be in another 20, 30 years? Those that sparks conversations. Who's controlling this, and to what end? Now you have questions of- 

Darrell Bock: 

How is it programmed? 

Michael Svigel: 

... how's it programmed? There's no such thing as neutral programming nowadays. There's always some bias. People are putting their thumb on the scale on one side or another. What search results? How are those being filtered? People talk about algorithms. I don't know what that is. Sounds musical to me, but apparently it's bad. But all of these things, what are they bringing up? They're bringing up issues of sin, of humanity, of knowledge, awareness, epistemology. How do we know something? How do we know something to be true? Who do you trust? I mean, these are great topics for apologetic conversations. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Darrell, do you have any thoughts? 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, I think that one of the challenges is that you mentioned algorithms. It always bothers my wife that she goes to buy something and then in the next five minutes, all these advertisements pop up that show where she's been. 

Michael Svigel: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

She wants to know who knows and that kind of thing. So people are watching what our habits are, that kind of thing and what we're drawn to. So, aspects of that become a challenge. But I think the major thing is just the access, the overwhelming amount of information that we have access to, which raises its own set of problems because sometimes that information is accurate and then sometimes it isn't. 

I like to tease people, it's like rumors that you sometimes hear. As fast as the omniscience of God, just not as accurate. When you do that, you've got the problem of being discerning about what comes across the net as well. So the net is both an opportunity and a challenge, and being aware of that's important in interacting with it. I don't think it's strictly negative. I don't think it's just something that we see, "Oh, here's our one world reality that's coming in some scenarios," the end times, et cetera. It actually provides some really important services in the midst of all those kinds of concerns. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I also think that it demonstrates that people fear death because especially with transhumanism, but even to a degree AI and how that interacts with transhumanism in the future, that's people trying to live forever. I guess I'm trying to think of some other ways. The fear of death, what are some other... There's another one. I'm missing it. Anyway- 

Darrell Bock: 

While you're thinking about that, the fear of death is dealt with very simply by responding to the Gospel. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Fair enough. So, we have also a world renowned gospel scholar. 

Michael Svigel: 

Even the fear of the future and the unknown. I think for me, I fall back on my eschatology a lot where someone says, "If we don't do this or if this happens, this is going to happen," and call me naïve, nut I'm looking at you don't even have to get into detailed eschatology. There are just some things that are just a good, healthy, basic eschatology rules out. This is not a plausible scenario given what we know, what scripture clearly says about the future. So some of those things too, we'll come back to. Look, there's millions of sources of information saying a million different things. 

There's something comforting to know that God's word doesn't change and he's been saying these same things over and over again. The other thing it does too is in the multiplication of sources of information, I've noticed that that is causing people to fall back on conversations and personal relationships again. Because I don't know who to trust, but I know this lady has cared for me. I know this guy has met some needs. I know this person was there when I was going through something and you can't Google that. So I think that there's something very helpful in the midst of the noise, that calm steady relationship, that can some bear some fruit. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So shifting a little bit to much murkier water- 

Michael Svigel: 

Uh-oh. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... as it relates to AI, and as we think through the relationship between artificial intelligence, what we know of it now and moving forward and the faith, how do we think about what that is going to look like? Do we need to be preparing to witness to artificial entities? Does that kind of faith commitment lie outside its domain? What are y'all's thoughts on that? 

Darrell Bock: 

You're right when you said that was murky. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I told you. 

Darrell Bock: 

It could even be a- 

Kymberli Cook: 

I think it's worth talking about. We don't have to say that we know what we're talking about. 

Darrell Bock: 

The worst is it could be a black hole. 

Michael Svigel: 

The worst is we could be disproven in a week. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know. That's why I said- 

Michael Svigel: 

We have to be careful, whatever we say. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... we don't actually have to know what we're talking about. We're just clear we're in murky water. 

Darrell Bock: 

Here's something- 

Kymberli Cook: 

I guess I'm just trying to say, what are some things for people to be thinking through? I mean, they're already talking about AI having feelings and really, I think even Fuz Rana said in one of our podcasts a while ago that it is quickly approaching something that it's hard not to ascribe some kind of- 

Michael Svigel: 

Sentience. Yeah. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... sentience and personality too, on some level. So, I think it's a relevant question for at least us to be talking through how to start to wade in those waters. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, there's several things that come to mind. One that I'm going to start with is sometimes when you get into these discussions, people get really afraid about what could be happening. This is where the eschatology point you made earlier is important because I think what it says to us is, "Look, God is very aware of all this. He's been aware of it for a very long time." In that sense, God is able to communicate that he is in control of what's going to happen. I really think a Christian who lives primarily out of fear has wrestled with not understanding the depth of the theology of their identity, and it should be able to remove fear from us and call us to a faith that trusts God. So, that's the first thing that I would say. The second thing that I think I would say is that as artificial intelligence becomes... I'll say it this way, just a little less artificial and more intelligent- 

Michael Svigel: 

There you go. 

Darrell Bock: 

... okay, that it will require us wrestling with the relational dimensions that are so central to our faith. Both in terms of understanding, listening, engagement, all those kinds of things. So, I think we need to be prepared for the possibility of those kinds of interactions. It's something that the book, in one sense, has fun previewing. So, certainly that element. I also think that it's a challenge in wrestling with a reality that seems human on the one hand, but isn't on the other. In other words, I would be hard-pressed to think that we will ever get to the point, and maybe this is my limited point of view, where something that we create reflects the image of God. 

It may reflect the presence of creativity, it may reflect all kinds of things, but it won't reflect being made in the image of God. So that represents the fact that this is something other than being human and always remembering that is actually pretty important, especially given the fact that we mentioned earlier that the way in which the programming works to set up the entity you would be dealing with is actually a pretty important consideration in thinking about how I interact with whatever it is that's in front of me. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, I definitely agree with you with regard to the distinction of the image of God. Anthropologically, I think that is only going to be more and more of something that we're having to explore and really firm up a Christian understanding on moving forward. But I will say, I mean, the rest of creation is not in the image of God and it is still going to be redeemed. That's part of our eschatological hope. 

Darrell Bock: 

We still have to relate to it and we have a responsibility to steward it well. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Absolutely. 

Darrell Bock: 

The original mandate was the call to steward the creation in which God had put us in because he made us, to use the language of scripture, a little lower than the angels. I tell people the image of God, at least for me, one aspect of it is that we're made in the image of God to image God, to reflect his character and who he is and what he's about and the way that he's made us and the creativity that he gives us, the ability to think, to think about what comes down the road, all those kinds of things. Now it's conceivable that artificial intelligence will develop the ability to do some of this, but I'm not sure it will develop the ability to do all of it. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well, I agree, but I'm just saying even might it become something that is a part of... I don't want to say creation, because obviously there's a secondary step of creation, but something that would or could be redeemed, I don't know. What do you think Dr. Svigel? 

Michael Svigel: 

Well, I mean, it depends on what you mean by redeemed. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Again, not equating it with the image of God. 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah. It depends on what you mean by redeemed. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Well, I don't know. That's why I'm throwing it to the- 

Michael Svigel: 

Well, I mean, in one sense, things can be used for redemptive purposes that could otherwise... or were used for non-redemptive purposes. So in that sense, it's like any tool that can further our... what I call the imago dei mission of humanity, what we're called to do, as Darrell mentioned. In that sense, it can be a tool for those purposes, but it can also be used in destructive ways. So I think when we stop thinking of it as a tool and an extension of our hands and our minds, then it can become dangerous. Now the next question is, what if it stops thinking about itself as a tool? 

Is that a possible scenario? There's a line in the book, and I dodge the question to some degree in the end and don't actually fully answer it, but the designer of the machine is asked whether... YAR is the name of the machine, whether YAR is actually sentient or if that's just a claim, marketing claim. He pauses and he says, "YAR thinks he's sentient." That's as far as I went. Well, if you think you're sentient, are you sentient or are you just really, really, really good at faking it? It's a hard question. 

I have a feeling that we're probably very close to the point where we will no longer be able to tell whether we're talking to a real person on the phone when we call customer service or not. I think we're really close to that. In many cases, I would rather not talk a real person because the computer's never rude to me. I mean, really. They get the job done. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm sorry you feel this way. 

Michael Svigel: 

I do feel like we're probably going to get to that point, but that doesn't make the computer self-aware or feeling things like shame or remorse, or- 

Darrell Bock: 

We're already close to that in some instances. I think about the way, I mean, I'm just thinking about the recent commercials that I've been watching that are about the smartphone in which photographs can be manipulated and the situation that didn't happen is chronicled as if it did, those kinds of things. Those represent challenges because that opens up the door for all kinds of information manipulation, which is already going on and that kind of thing. So, it's a challenge. It's also one of the observations I think I have about the book is that the dialogues that take place look like they're pretty human at one level, in terms of the exchange and the give and take that's happening in the retorts that are coming from both sides. I mean, if I were keeping score, I think the human loses in the book on a regular basis. 

So there are challenges like that, and I don't see it as being unrealistic that that might be in some cases where we're headed. That's why you come to rely on some of the technology that you have, because it's able to do things more smoothly and more quickly than we could do on our own. I mean, some of the mathematical equations that get solved electronically took years to solve otherwise, because there are so many actions happening in a millisecond. So those are real challenges for us, I think long-term. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Interesting. So I want to transition from just the murky waters of AI and faith to some of the more apologetic themes, and especially the underlying ideas that we see in the book of the questions that underlie apologetic- 

Michael Svigel: 

Sure. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... conversations, and it's presented as an intellectual exercise, but both in the book and it seems like in real life oftentimes there are very felt needs. What would you all say are some of those core drivers that may or may not be intellectually grounded? 

Darrell Bock: 

I'm going to flip the script here a little bit and ask this question, which is look at all the effort that's gone in to create artificial intelligence and then ask yourself, how did we get here? What I mean by that is think about who we are as human beings, the way in which we analyze and discuss and can see and control. 

You have a view out there that says, "Oh, that was just a wonderful coincidence that all that happened." Then think about all the intentionality that goes into creating AI. So I asked myself, so what's the more reasonable expectation? Is the more reasonable expectation that this just happened and everything just clicked right all along the way? Or is there some reason to believe that the reason why intelligence exists is because there was an intelligence that existed, that kind of a thing. So, that's one thing that strikes me about this exercise and questions it can raise. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Which is an example of technology as an apologetic tool. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah. 

Michael Svigel: 

Another form of the argument for design and complexity. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yep. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Dr. Svigel, what do you think is at the core of many apologetic questions? 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, I've been asked many times, "What are the themes of the book?" I would say the main theme is what motivates doubt and what motivates faith. Yes, it's facts and there's a lot of facts back and forth, and arguments back and forth on the existence of God and what constitutes a good argument, and did you meet the burden of proof? What about this problem in the Bible? But in the end, all of that crumbles. 

You realize that for both parties, there's something more than... It's not without the facts, but there's something more than the facts that the image we use in here is that's putting the thumb on the scale to a certain degree. Everybody does it. We're not just computers made out of meat. We are thinking, feeling, experiencing, loving creatures of God with complex histories and more than just facts motivate faith as well as doubt. I don't want to give away anything away, but that's part of the theme. 

Darrell Bock: 

Let me go at it this way, because I know when we do our work in the apologetics program, one of the things we have the students read is CS Lewis' book on miracles. In that book, he makes the point of just ask people where they think thought comes from. You can't see it, you can't hear it, you can't feel it, you can't taste it, you can't touch it. Something's going on. That indicates there's another realm that's out there that we have to come to grips with. It's a variation of the argument I was just making about complexity and design. So, I think that one of the things that you wrestle with and have to ask is, is there more to our existence in the material world that I can handle? 

I think in the long run, the answer to that question, interestingly enough, is deeply rooted in what makes us unique, and that is our ability to think and reason, interact, et cetera, which is not... I mean, I don't think there are chemical things going on between people who interact. There's something more profound that's going on, and to just explain it as a reaction of chemicals is to highly underestimate what's taking place between people. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So yeah, I definitely think the existential questions are one of the things underlying the types of faith conversations that we see in the book and that we see played out across the public square. I also think there might be, I don't know, at least for those who are more intellectually driven, I think there might be a fear underlying for people who want to control, want to know. So the questions that can get very detailed, and like you were talking about even in the book, the burden of proof, all these different kinds of sophisticated, philosophical back and forth and all of that. But perhaps, I don't know, would you all agree or have you had any experience with people where it seems like there might be actually fear driving those questions? 

Darrell Bock: 

What fear does is it tends to move us away from faith. One of the things that I like about the book, I can say this without giving anything away, is that it gives space to the lack of certainty that we sometimes have or the role of doubt or openness, I'll say it that way, to thinking about how you think about what's in front of you. Those categories exist in the conversations. I think that that is something I don't have to have everything nailed down in order to move out in faith. I'll say it this way, this is a little more graphic. I don't have to be or perceive myself as being omniscient in order to function in life. 

So that seems to me to be something that the people who seek to control what goes on around them are really expressing out of their fear and attempt to grasp and get ahold and control that fear, and the best way to control that fear, I think, is to have a healthy, mature faith that trusts in the one who actually is in control. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So that actually brings up, Dr. Svigel, one of my questions for you, was it seemed like in the book you took care to caution against 100% surety in intellectual answers? 

Michael Svigel: 

In both directions. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Michael Svigel: 

Theism or atheism. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So, talk to us about that approach. 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, I think I'm trying to be honest and wrestle with number one, what motivates faith, what motivates doubt. Both of the cases, both characters, Mike Berg, the former theologian-turned-atheist and YAR, the computer. At first, it looks like YAR is motivated strictly by the facts. He's done all the calculations and concluded Christianity is true. 

Then you start peeling some things away and you realize even for it or him, there are other factors. There are other things going on that he has experienced and has had to think through and face. So what I'm trying to do through the divisive fiction and dialogue is basically paint a picture what real life is, and just be honest with it, there are a lot of things in my life that have pushed me to Christ and pushed me to faith. I understand. I try to understand my atheist uncle who has rejected and the reasons he has rejected he articulates, they make sense to me at an intellectual level. I'm doing everything I can to not give away the... No spoilers. Spoiler alert. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yeah, don't- 

Kymberli Cook: 

I know, I'm trying to be so careful. 

Michael Svigel: 

I'm right at the edge here. 

Darrell Bock: 

I know, you got to- 

Michael Svigel: 

Read the book. 

Darrell Bock: 

You got to the edge of the file. 

Michael Svigel: 

Shh. But I think if we are honest, everybody's in that situation. We're all in that situation where we're moved back and forth through... We're wavering between certainty and doubt. I think that's actually close to where it ends. That's where faith is. We don't have all of the answers and have it all figured out. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Which- 

Michael Svigel: 

And that's okay. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Which is not always communicated from the church to the public square. 

Michael Svigel: 

In some circles, yes. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So that can be something that could be really refreshing, even for people who are listening that find themselves... Like you said, we all find ourselves in that space. To be able to own that and to say that and say, yes, there is not 100% surety, but that doesn't mean that there's not a place for faith, that that is actually part of the faith journey itself and the release of the fear in faith. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, let me talk about the danger of what it means to try and pursue 100% certainty. Because what it does is it risks shutting down the conversation that we need to have in people who are in a vulnerable place. So they don't feel the comfort of being able to raise an issue or a question or a doubt because they feel like, "Well, I know how you're going to... I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't have this feeling or reaction that I'm coping with on a regular basis," et cetera. If we don't create a space for this kind of thinking, then the result is a shutdown that actually isn't healthy for a function of a community of people, many of whom in the same breath will say, "We know there are a lot of people broken around us." You can't have that both ways. So actually being aware of the kind of space honest, transparent engagement produces is actually one that serves the community at large, because that means I can approach someone with what I'm wrestling with. 

Kymberli Cook: 

I think this work gives that space in a unique way. So for our final turn of all of the different layers of the conversation that we're having as a result of this, you talked about, "Through this literary device, this is what I'm trying to do." So, talk to us about your approach to the relationship between faith and in spirituality and literature and art. 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, it's like you said, it's a device, it's a genre. The history of the church is riddled with religious fictions. We call them apocrypha or pseudepigraphic writings and things like this, where they're trying to get across spiritual or moral or sometimes political, social kinds of values and messages, and they cast them in the form of some kind of narrative. But science fiction, this is my fourth fiction book I've done, it's a great vehicle because you can get characters to say things that you wish you could say in ways you wish you could say them and have these discussions. 

So it's a great way of studying some of these issues in a way that's engaging, entertaining. I think more Christians should do it better than we have, I think. I'm not going to give away the ending, but the ending, interesting little fact, there was a 32nd chapter to the book that served as a wrap-up and tied up things very nice and neat, typical cliché, happy ending thing. One of my early readers of a draft said, "This is great. Get rid of the last chapter. Leave it..." 

Darrell Bock: 

Open. 

Michael Svigel: 

"Leave it open for reflection/discussion." I said, "Are you serious?" I went back and I'm like, "He's right." Deleted the chapter, and now you're, "What happens next?" It's that message of we're all one step away from the next step. It's always in this process in a journey. So I think that fiction has a way of just illustrating and accentuating things in a way that, no offense, people aren't going to read a lot of the books Darrell and I write for the scholarly audience. 

Darrell Bock: 

It's another way in, and it's another way in that sometimes works around even defense mechanisms that people have when you say the word theology, and I've got to say, the Bible does this. You've got parables, major vehicle of Jesus that are constructed stories that are designed to illustrate a truth. But to do it not necessarily because its facts are bolted down to the ground, but it's the kind of thing that could happen or the kind of thing that someone could contemplate. You've got, assuming the short ending of Mark, okay, so there's my little apologetic coming in, you've got a very open-ended ending to the Gospel of Mark. 

I've got a resurrection. Now the question is, "What are you going to do with it?" You don't even get appearances in Mark. You just get the empty tomb. What are you going to do with this? Or the end of Acts? 

Michael Svigel: 

Acts. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, what in the world happened to Paul? 

Michael Svigel: 

What next? 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, all right. Isn't even addressed, because I think the book is saying once the Word of God moved from Jerusalem to Rome, the center of the world at the time, God had already done a pretty amazing thing with the Word of God. So, they're open-ended things that happen. Some of them are grounded in history, and some of them aren't. But the point is the way in which truth gets framed is as important as the truth itself. 

Michael Svigel: 

They become dialogue starters rather than dialogue. 

Darrell Bock: 

Exactly. 

Michael Svigel: 

In fact, I mentioned earlier my atheist/agnostic uncle, he's not a fictional character. He's real. He's read it. He would pick it up. He'll pick this up and read it. He's not going to read my commentary on Shepherd of Hermas, but he'll read this and ask questions, engage with me a little bit about it. So, point of fact. So, it is a helpful tool. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Yeah. So I was going to ask, who was your intended audience for it? 

Michael Svigel: 

Not strictly the unbeliever, the atheist, but my primary audience was a Christian audience. Let's just be honest, most apologetic sources are consumed by Christians. They're the ones who are reading it and it's firming up their faith or giving them tools to engage unbelievers. But it has been in the hands of unbelievers or atheists or agnostics. My goal was to hopefully represent them in a way that they felt fairly represented, their concerns and questions, but the primary audience was a Christian audience, informing them that atheists aren't stupid. They have concerns, they have questions, and we can carry on conversations like this. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yet I'm assuming that in the dialogues that you have between the two sets of characters that you're trying to help display, at least to a degree, the way in which interactions on these topics should take place. 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, and I think I wrote this fine line between being too preachy, because it wasn't supposed to be just a bunch of apologetic arguments in narrative form, which is a gimmick I don't like. But I also had to make it believable. You got a PhD theologian and a computer and they have to carry on a conversation at a certain level. How do I- 

Darrell Bock: 

Or School of Divinity no less. 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, not a real place, wink, wink. But right, how do you present this story without... My wife, when she read it, she said, "I felt like I was in a room and there was some scholars having an argument and I didn't know what they were talking about." That's what I wanted because it was like the clash of the titans, to a degree. But I also had to tone it down because I did want it to be understandable, so it's a fine line and a very risky endeavor. So, there's a little bit of that. It's hopefully not overly preachy and teach-y, but hopefully the story has enough heart to make that make sense. 

Darrell Bock: 

One of the tensions in Christian media is how explicit to be versus implicit, and let the observer think about what they are seeing rather than being told what they are seeing. That's, I think, part of a good artistic skill, is the ability to probe a question and to probe a deduction without actually declaring it. 

Michael Svigel: 

Just for the record, what YAR says in his arguments and statements are not necessarily my perspective. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Just that little caveat. 

Michael Svigel: 

It's a device. 

Darrell Bock: 

We're going to bar Svigel from the YAR. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So one last question before we run out of time fully is what surprised you at the end of the project, after you did it? Is there anything that you were like, "Huh, I didn't really see that either coming," in the narrative, or in the feedback, or just in your own reflections, what surprised you? 

Michael Svigel: 

Yeah, that's interesting that you asked that question. I think people who have never written fiction don't realize that your characters start to take on a life of their own. They do. They do and they say things that even the writer as they're going don't quite expect. It's a weird dynamic, but everybody talks about it. So I would say what surprised me, that's a great question. 

I guess I'm a little bit surprised at the end at how, even with the original ending, how unresolved it was to a certain degree. I was at the front end thinking that eventually, they're going to get to the bottom of the paper and have the answer. I like where it landed. You got to the bottom of the paper and you ran out of paper. That's life. Maybe you turn the page and you keep writing, but I think we have to be happy with a little bit of lack of total resolution. I think that that's another one of the themes there. 

Darrell Bock: 

What I found interesting is I was asking myself, so which of these two approaches to life would I prefer to adopt? I think I found myself on the side of the machine. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Of course you did. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, maybe the artificial intelligence isn't so artificially intelligent after all. I think that actually could be one of the ways, the probing way that you went about this actually functions. 

Kymberli Cook: 

So hopefully those of you who are listening have had your curiosity piqued as we've been talking through this. Like we said, it is a really good, nice, quick read. It would be wonderful to do over a weekend or something like that. But it's very layered, like we've said, and it is thoughtful and it engages a lot of different dimensions of our faith and our current cultural context, and all of that. So Dr. Svigel, thank you for being here. Thank you for putting the time in for this work in general. 

Michael Svigel: 

Thanks a lot. They can get it on Amazon, ebook, print. It also has an Audible- 

Kymberli Cook: 

There you go. 

Michael Svigel: 

... audiobook version. 

Darrell Bock: 

The Last Minute was presented to you by DTS professors on behalf of literature. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Awesome. Well, Darrell- 

Michael Svigel: 

Appreciate it. Thank you for the conversation. 

Kymberli Cook: 

Of course, of course. Darrell, thank you as always for joining- 

Darrell Bock: 

Yes, of course. 

Kymberli Cook: 

... and actually just letting me sit at this table. We would just want to thank you who are listening, and we ask that you would be sure to join us next time as we discuss issues of God and culture.