Reading Literature Well

Kasey Olander: 

Welcome to The Table Podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life. I'm Kasey Olander. I'm the web content specialist here at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Darrell Bock: 

And I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the center, as well as Senior Research Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. 

Kasey Olander: 

Today, our topic is going to be literature. Interestingly, literature is a significant way to measure a population's education. And to contrast this, in 1820, only one in 10 people could read and write, but now only one in 10 is illiterate. So we've come a long way, but at the same time, I was looking at different studies and only about half of adults in America read about at least one book a year for pleasure in 2022, 2023. So even though literacy rates are increasing, it seems that the way that people engage with material is more in the short form and less in the actual reading of books. And yeah, the fact that there's so many things that are widely available to us and in the digital age, it means that we steward this gift of literacy a little bit differently. 

So today, whether you are one of the people who has almost stopped reading altogether or whether you have a deep love for the written word, either way, we're glad that you're here with us on this conversation today, and as we consider what literature can do for our spiritual lives. 

So we are joined by our esteemed guest, Dr. Karen Swallow Prior. She is a writer, professor, and reader, of course. She's written books about the topic of reading and literature. They include On Reading Well: Finding The Good Life Through Great Books and Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me. Her academic focus is British literature, especially in the 18th century. So Karen, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Thank you so much for having me. 

Kasey Olander: 

We appreciate it. We're excited for you to lend your expertise to such an important topic that, yeah, has been around for so long. So I guess just to lay the groundwork for our conversation, how would you define literature? What is literature? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

I love that question and I love definitions. It's good to start with that. And of course, I mean, there are basically two general ways we can use that word. The most general would be to talk about any kind of written material. Like you might go visit a doctor and you have skin rash. So he pulls a pamphlet off of the wall and says, "Here's some literature for your problem." And so that's just referring to letters that are written and printed or digital, I guess now. 

But when we're talking about Literature, with a capital L, we usually mean a form of art. So like painting uses paint to create pictures, literary art uses the art of language and words. And so that's where we can get into trouble. All written material is literature, and yet most of us would say it takes a certain kind of artistic level or achievement to achieve the status of literature. And that kind of debate is where the fun begins. 

Kasey Olander: 

Would you- 

Go ahead. 

Darrell Bock: 

And there are kinds of literature. I mean, you could be storytelling, which would be fiction. You could be presenting history, which is non-fiction. Although most historians probably don't write with the literary flair. And then you've got poetry, that kind of thing. So there are different kinds of literature. We're focused today pretty much on the storytelling part of literature, right? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

That's my expertise. So absolutely. And poetry, it crosses all of those boundaries. Poetry can be a story or not be a story. And it too is literature. So lots of different categories. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So Darrell's favorite opening question that I'm about to steal from him, even though he's sitting right here, is how did someone like you get into, yeah, develop an interest in literature? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Well, I developed an interest at a very early age. I am old enough that when I was growing up, reading was kind of normal for most kids. There wasn't much else to do. My mother read to me, but I mean, she read to all of us kids, but for whatever reason, I'm the one that reading really stuck to. So I was the proverbial girl with their nose always in a book. And I had my own little library. I made my friends next door check out books from my library whether they wanted to or not. And I just loved reading from a young age, majored in English in college, went on to get a PhD in English. And it's just been a lifelong love and interest and passion. 

Darrell Bock: 

So was it Nancy Drew when you were growing up, or am I showing my age? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Oh, no, I read Nancy Drew. Absolutely loved Nancy Drew. Read some Hardy Boys as well. 

Darrell Bock: 

Oh wow, okay. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah. Loved Walter Farley and The Black Stallion. So many wonderful children's books at that time. 

Darrell Bock: 

Very good. Yeah. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. I know that some people read for enjoyment, some people read, like you said, to collect information. Are there better reasons to read than others? Are there, yeah, essentially good reasons for people to pursue literature? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah, that's a really good question because there are lots of good reasons to read, and I think it's actually helpful to think about the different reasons that we read. If I'm reading an email or a letter, I'm obviously reading for information. But literature, because it's an art and story, are things we should read for pleasure. Now, hopefully we'll talk later about people who maybe don't get pleasure from reading, and we can talk about why that might be and how that could be changed, but when we read for pleasure, we're actually reading more for formational reasons. So we can read things to inform us. But even what we read and how we read has a formational aspect as well. And the two aren't separated at all, because if we read only for information, we're actually being formed in a way that reads and engages in language for purely utilitarian purposes. And that's not good because that's not how we're made. We're not made to just be entirely pursuing utilitarian things in our lives. But we also do have to get use out of things. 

So the phrase that we'll find often in literary studies that goes all the way back to Horace and the classical times is to teach and delight. And so the best literature does both. It teaches us something, so it's useful, but it also delights us and is pleasurable to read. 

Darrell Bock: 

So it's interesting that you had different categories for the kind of reading we can do. It can inform, it can instruct, we can read for content. I imagine a lot of people who read, read simply for, for lack of a better description, entertainment or for distraction in some ways. But I take it that you would hold the view that even if you're reading for that, that material is still forming you. Is that- 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

Is that right? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

So to be an unintentional reader, if I can coin an expression, or to be a reader who's actually not intentional about why they're reading beyond just reading material for the sake of entertainment is actually missing an aspect of what's going on when they're reading. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

That's exactly right. And to just broaden it out a little bit more, I think that's true of all of the things that we might do for entertainment purposes. So not just reading literature, but watching television or playing video games or playing sports. There are different things that we do for pleasure and entertainment that are good, but the more intentional we are about them, the more good they can do for us, I think. And so reading is no different. And because our pleasures and what we take delight in can be cultivated and formed, we can be intentional about how we're forming what we take pleasure and delight in. 

Kasey Olander: 

So would you say that, for example, if I don't love exercising, that I could somehow train myself to cultivate something... I know exercise is good for me, I should probably do it a little bit more, that I can find a way to cultivate that delight? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Exactly. And that's a great example. And some of us are just simply never going to love to exercise at all. And some of us might find something that we do find more enjoyment in than other things. So some of us will just do it because we know it's good for us. Some of us won't do it at all. Some of us will find something we really enjoy and do that and not the other things. And reading can be the same way. And when we do develop a taste for things that are good for us, I think that is contributing greatly to our flourishing as human beings, but we have to know what's good and then cultivate an aptitude and an appetite for it. 

Kasey Olander: 

I love that you're broadening the scope of this conversation, that it's not just that reading is formative, but a lot of the things that we choose to do, but also the things that we unintentionally do and don't pay attention to are forming us and developing our character. So to use reading as a case study, in what ways does reading impact our formation? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

That's a great question. That's a lot of what my entire book On Reading Well is about. It is about virtues, specific virtues, but also it's about how reading itself, reading well, reading deeply, reading immersively, reading good literature well does shape our character. 

And again, we can compare it to other things around us in the world. I want to be clear to say that just as I said about exercise, not everyone's going to love exercise or sports or whatever it might be. And there are a lot of people who don't love reading, and that's good. I think we all can benefit from enjoying it, but we're all different as well. 

And so I am not saying that people who don't enjoy reading are worse people or anything like that, but if we have an interest in reading and we want to develop a love for reading, we can recognize that, especially if we find it difficult, which I think... I mean, even I find it more and more difficult in this digital, frenetic, hurried age, that just the act of sitting down with a piece of long text, whether it's a book or a poem, or I do read physical books, some people might read them electronically, but if we sit down with a long work that is written in literary language, just the patience and attention and discipline it takes to give that thing sustained attention is itself a development in virtue and character, especially because it goes so against most of what our world is like. So it's a different experience to do that very same activity than it would've been two or three or 400 years ago when there was so much less competing for our attention. And sitting down and relaxing was something that was more desirable than it is today. 

So there is a cultural and social context for the virtue that we develop when we're reading. So the attention, the discipline, the focus, all of those are things that we all need to practice and develop more in our age. And doing that with a literary text that we know is rich and rewarding, just simply because we've been told that it is, which is a lot of... there's a canon for a reason, that's developing some character qualities that I think most of us can benefit from. 

Darrell Bock: 

I think about virtue... I remember looking at the table of contents of your book and going, ooh, a lot of these works come from the 18th and 19th century, from the Victorian age, actually. And my initial reaction is, well, that makes sense because the Victorian age was really focused on the development of character and those kinds of qualities deeply embedded in a Judeo-Christian environment, if I can say it that way. And yet, I'm reminded as one who works with ancient literature, that ancient literature also, at least when it was being intentional, was also attempting to develop character that when you did ancient biography, the reason you told the story of someone is because you wanted to model either the character that they had or use the model of the character as something not to do and to be. So I take it there's an element of this that's somewhat timeless in terms of the way literature works, if I can say it that way. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

No, absolutely. And so there are different genres and mode- 

And so there are different genres and modes that develop through the ages. All of them work to... Because if they're literary art, they're using language creatively and artistically to add to our enjoyment and to teach us something. And so we have treatises and epics and poetry and fables and morality plays in ancient times and the Middle Ages and the period that I love, the 18th century is the one... And then the 19th century is the one in which the realistic novel developed, the modern novel essentially. And I love it because it mirrors the rise of modernity and the rise of the individual. And so it teaches us those things by telling stories in a different way than older forms of literature. And yet it is still a literary art that uses... We are creatures of language and words. And so any literary art is going to help us to express and understand that particular aspect of what it means to be made in God's image that we are creatures of the word and of words. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So what difference do you think it makes... When someone comes to the text of scripture, what difference does it make if they have been... If there's someone who has developed a love for other kinds of literature or as opposed to if they aren't very well versed in it, no pun intended. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Right. That would've been a great pun if you had intended it. It's a great accidental one. Yeah. Again, I think that when we understand language and how language works, and think about the implications that God chose to reveal himself to us through words and language, I mean, there's also natural revelation as well, so he reveals himself to us a number of ways, but revealing himself to us through words and through language, that alone tells us something significant about himself and about his nature and our nature. One of my most formative books that I've ever read is actually not a work of fiction or literature. It's Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. It's an old classic, and in that book he talks about as someone... He's writing as a secular Jew who doesn't have any real religious commitments, but he's writing about the commandment not to make graven images and thinking about what a stark contrast there was with an ancient God who made a command to his people about the form of communication that they should use in worshiping him and communicating their understanding of him to their people. 

And so Postman talks about how language and words are mediated, unlike images, they're symbols so we have to actually interpret the symbols and interpret the letters and interpret the words in a way that we don't do with strictly visual images. I'm paraphrasing Postman poorly here. You can read him for yourself. It is a fascinating stuff, but he's talking about form and content and that there's a God... The God of the Old Testament, and later the New obviously, is the kind of God who wants to communicate with his people in a certain way and not in another way. And that just has so many implications. And so when we go to scripture and we understand something about the nature of words and of language and sort of the linearity of the unfolding way, that meaning is revealed to us through language, that tells us something about God and the way he's working in human time and history and human nature. 

If we understand the things about language, that it changes, that evolves, that it's resonant and layered, then we can approach questions like the literal meaning of the text versus the allegorical meaning of the text with better understanding because we understand that all words are symbolic, all language is metaphorical. And that deepens our understanding of how to interpret the words that are in scripture and how to deal with all the various interpretations that we have and their differences and how it's all still God communicating to us through this particular medium. 

Darrell Bock: 

So what moved you to work on the book and to talk about reading well? I mean, why go there? And I guess the back half of the question is, I remember the first time I heard the statistic that Kasey quoted at the top of the show, which is that most people don't even read one book a year. I mean, mind boggles for me. And so I'm assuming that your hope was to encourage people in their reading and to actually realize it's able to do more for them than perhaps they think. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah, it is that. And there's a little bit more of a trajectory, that might be helpful to talk about, between my first book, which you mentioned in the introduction Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me. And then On Reading Well, which is where I talk about the virtues. When I was writing Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me, which is... It was published in 2012. So I was writing it 15 years ago. I was a college professor at an evangelical university, and I was teaching students who either were themselves or their parents were nervous about reading non-Christian literature or being exposed to different ideas. And so when I wrote that book, I was channeling John Milton, the 17th century Puritan, and I quoted him and talked about how Christians should read promiscuously to read a lot of different texts and competing ideas to deepen our faith and our understanding. 

And so by the time I wrote... In the years between writing that book and writing On Reading Well, the internet exploded and people were no longer worried about reading this or that, they were reading everything. And I thought, okay, well, my first book was about reading a lot and not being afraid to read a lot of things. And now we're in a little bit different place where everyone's reading everything, but they're not necessarily reading well or reading good things well. And so I'm sort of balancing that tension because we're inundated with words now. Everyone's reading everything. You can find anything you want and all the things you don't want on the internet. So how do we train our attention and our focus to choose something that is good? And then how do we train our attention and focus enough to read it well? So that's why I wrote the second book. 

Kasey Olander: 

Yeah. So why don't we go that direction? How do we choose what to read when there's such an influx of information? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Well, I mentioned the canon of literature. There are always debates about what should be in the canon and what shouldn't be in the canon. But there are so many good books, you can go on the internet, people are always asking me for lists. I'm not going to come up with a list because I'll get in trouble for that. But you can go to and find modern libraries list of 100 best novels or the classics of Western literature in a great books course. You can find all kinds of lists that have been created throughout time and that consist of books that have passed the test of time, have universal themes, and they're easy to find. And you can pick something that interests you, something... Whether it's an author that interests you or a time period or topic that interests you. We don't have to love all good literature. 

There are lots of works that I just can't bring myself to read, even though I try to, just to stretch myself. And I just don't like certain genres and modes. So I stick to the ones that I know I'll enjoy and challenge myself every now and then. So those kinds of lists are easy to find. You don't have to read just great literature. You can join a community book club, or I encourage churches to actually hold community book clubs. I think it's a way serving both the church and the community in a way that is maybe outside the walls of the church, but can bring people in and be in a less threatening way than coming to church might offer. So there are lots of resources out there, lots of podcasts, actually, lots of articles, lots of online community discussion groups or book clubs. I mean, this is a gift of the digital age that's actually easier to access and join others in a community of reading rather than just trying to do it on one's own. 

Darrell Bock: 

So you said earlier you want to encourage people who don't read. How do you do that? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Well, again, if people have no interest in reading and they do other things, that's fine. But I think there are a lot of people who think that they aren't good readers or think that they can't read well and wish that they could. And what I would say to them is, you can, once we learn how to sound out the letters and look up words in a dictionary when we're in first grade, that is the exact same skill that we're doing no matter what we're reading. If you learn to read at a first grade level, you can read anything with enough time, patience, and attention. So that's what's required. And I think the biggest mistake that people make is... Again, because this is a habit and a practice that we have developed is reading fast. Most of us read emails fast. We read social media posts fast, and that's the only kind of reading that we know how to do. 

And we have to force ourselves actually to slow down and read attentively and deeply when we're reading literary writing. And to use the metaphor of muscles, I'm sure that's not how the brain exactly works, but it is like an entirely different muscle group that we use in our brain to sit down and read slowly to reread a sentence because you didn't quite get it, to look up a word, to make a note in a margin, to just really, really slow down is something that goes against most of our habits, most of our practices, and most of our expectations. And that really is the only way to read good, rich literary texts well, is to slow down and let them speak to us and to not speed read or skim. 

Darrell Bock: 

So I imagine that most good literature we've talked about, the storytelling category. So I think I want to shift from talking about literature in general to just think about storytelling for a second. What tips would you give to someone to be a good reader of stories? Because I mean, on the one hand, I can see, well, the story pulls me in. I don't have to do anything, it just takes me there. But there's a sense in which reading a good book is like appreciating a good movie where a story is being told, and you see the construction of what is being done, and that enhances the reading, not just what happened and who, but the way in which it's told. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Well, I think you just took the words out of my mouth right there when you said "The way in which it's told," because that is everything about a story. So we're trained for many reasons to focus on what happens in a story, the plot, rather than how it happens or how it's told or how it's viewed. And that makes all the difference. So if you take a simple example of an accident or something like that that happens, or a fight or something, and you have a few different people standing around who are witnesses to this event, and you ask them what happened, they're all going to tell a different story because they saw different things, they noticed different things, they remember different things. And so those different stories come through the way the story is told, the way it's seen, the way it's structured. 

And so when we're reading a story, we really need to pay attention to how it's told. And to go back to literature for a second, if it's a third person, omniscient narrator, a term we might've learned in high school and we're hoping we'd never hear again but that makes a difference. There's someone who's telling the story that way. If the story is told in the first person through a very limited point of view, the way we tell our stories every day, that makes a difference, and all these different ways of telling a story make a difference. And if we think about how the story would be told differently, if it were told through a different point of view- 

Think about how the story would be told differently if it were told through a different point of view. That's helpful. And this is one thing that film can do well and does do well, is shift perspectives or take things out of order. And we should always ask ourselves "Well, what difference does it make? Why is this story told out of order? Or why is the scene depicted through this character's eyes or vision?" And we don't always think about that because we get lost in it, but that makes all the difference in the effect that the story has. 

Darrell Bock: 

And so what tips would you give to someone to be a good... I got to say, reader of storytelling? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Well, again, not everyone wants to be the critic that some of us are. I have a hard time turning off that critical lens. I enjoy it. And so we can just ask ourselves questions like, "Why this, why that?" One of the forms that I love to teach students is the short story and short stories are notoriously weird and sort of disjoint. Because they're short they are often about what they leave out rather than what they put in. And so when some important piece or seemingly important piece of information is left out of a story, I would ask my students, "Okay, so if that plot leaves you hanging or you don't know how this resolved, what is that telling us about what is important in the story?" Because oftentimes the things that we expect to be important or think should be important end up being not what the story is about at all. 

And so we ask ourselves questions like, "Why is this left out? Why is this put in? Why is this detail here? And what the author is trying to do something or the filmmaker is trying to do something?" So we just ask our question, ask questions about why it's that way and not another way. And that can review. I mean, hopefully we do the same thing in our own relationships in our own lives. Like if we're having an honest, sincere conversation with a loved one and they say something, "Well, why are you saying that and why are you not examining this?" I mean, this is the same practice that we engage in real life relationships and stories help us to practice that vicariously. 

Kasey Olander: 

I feel like that goes back to the intentionality that you brought up earlier, that we're not just consuming things all haphazardly, but it takes a certain level of discipline to ask those kinds of questions instead of just coming away from a work, whether it's a film or a book with a feeling of, "I didn't like it". Asking questions about, maybe it is that unresolved tension that makes me uncomfortable. Or maybe it is something like that that again brings to our conscious awareness something that ordinarily we may not be as intentional about. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yes, I think just that's how we can live our lives, asking those questions not only about art, but about real life as well. And that helps us to understand the world better and understand ourselves better.. 

Kasey Olander: 

Which then cultivates empathy for other people when they're telling us stories, whether they're face-to-face with us or we're interacting with a work that they've created. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Exactly. Exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

This might sound like an odd question, but do you think certain genres are conducive to certain kinds of formation? In other words, one of the things that I guess fascinates me today, and this will be true both of books and film, is there are two genres that I struggle to get. I enjoy science fiction, but I don't generally go there. And then the one genre that I just don't get at all are horror films. I mean, I'm just not there. And yet it seems to me that certain genres have certain attractions attached to them and thus attached to certain kinds of formation. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yes, no, you're absolutely right. And I think it is helpful to think about the aesthetic element of any genre or mode or art form. And we tend to think of aesthetics as purely out there, like the appearance of something, the look of something, the sound of something, but the actual word aesthetic refers to our own bodily and sensory responses to something. And so I think that there are certain... So for example, I will admit and confess here that I do love horror films, the thoughtful ones. 

Darrell Bock: 

I'll let you explain Frankenstein to me sometime. Go ahead. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Oh, well, I've edited a whole volume about it, so with an introduction and notes and it's all there. And I think one of the reasons why I love horror besides its... I mean, good horror films have deeply spiritual themes. When I say horror, I don't mean the slash and gore films, but I mean the ones that have these themes. But also I think that because I have for the most part lived a very safe and sedentary and peaceful life, I actually like the adrenaline rush that comes from being scared. And that's a bodily response. Now, I will say that after having been literally hit by a bus a few years ago. I do have difficulty watching films where there are pedestrian automobile accidents. And it seems like every film that I watch has one, and it's just surprising to me all the time because I have a bodily response to it. 

So all of that is sort of an extreme way of talking about the aesthetic experience that we have that is our bodily response that is formed and trained and habituated through things that we may not even be aware of. And so we might like to have our heart race a little bit with something scary, or some people like to have their heart race with romances or something, and other people like to be moved by tragedy. I love tragedy as well, and I love satire, and satire makes me laugh, but sentimental things do nothing for me at all. And so I think part of that is intellectual, but part of it is our bodily response to certain kinds of stories and certain kinds of situations that our body has learned to respond to over time. So there is an intellectual part of it, but there's also a bodily emotional aspect of all art, including stories. 

Kasey Olander: 

That is fascinating. I wasn't expecting you to bring up the—but it makes perfect sense—the holistic way in which we approach something, any kind of art, because it's not just reading books only engages my mind or what have you, but the fact that you were talking earlier about the patience and the attention and the focus, those are also embodied ways that we are able to interact with something and engage that then serves us well for any number of other activities. Not just reading books, but maybe patience and focused attention and interacting with somebody who's hurting or what have you. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yes, no, exactly. 

Darrell Bock: 

So help me with horror films. What is it I should love about Frankenstein? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Okay, so Frankenstein is actually... The actual novel is not horror, it's science fiction. It's probably, it's credited with being the first work of science fiction. But you already said you didn't like science fiction, so I still have my work cut out for me. 

Darrell Bock: 

That's right. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

But the novel itself is absolutely nothing like any of the film versions of it. I will say that. It's actually a deeply theological and philosophical novel about creation and creator and the relationship of the creation to a creator when that creation didn't ask to be made. And it also deals with questions of transgressive knowledge, and it's sort of a retelling of the Promethean myth. So the book is nothing like the film versions of it. And so you should like it because you like theology. Read my... 

Darrell Bock: 

She's telling me I'm going to like it. Okay. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

My edition published by B&H gives you all the reasons why in the introduction, what you should be looking for and why you should like it. I will send you a copy. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay, I appreciate that. So I take it that part of what's going on here with some literature like that is that by taking aspects of normal life and them somewhat abnormal, they get us to reflect. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yes, that's very well put. And science fiction does that. Fantasy does that. Those are not my favorite genres. I like realism more. I like to really just, I like very nuanced and subtle strokes that make me look more deeply into real life, but these other things engage the imagination in other ways. 

Darrell Bock: 

You just used a word that I was going to next, which is the word "imagination". Because words on a page are different than film. Film visualizes a story for you. And so it's the story plus, if I can say it that way.. Whereas literature, it evokes imagery in a person's mind. But if Kasey and I were to read the same story and I were to ask her, "Paint a picture of what you just read", and I were to do the same, I dare say the pictures would be different. 

Kasey Olander: 

Perhaps. 

Darrell Bock: 

You think so? So we know each other way too well, it'd come out way different, but go ahead. So talk about that, because imagination is a part of what's going on too. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Right. And so when you read a great story, you are imagining it and picturing it, but it's also important to remember that the author... With film, we know that someone is very clear someone's interpreting the story and presenting it to us, but the same is happening with a story because the author is selecting details. And again, depending on the type of narrator, making commentary on those details. And so even though we're creating a visual picture, what the materials with which we make that picture are being directed by the author. And so some people will say that stories require you to use your imagination more. I actually wouldn't say that. I would just say we use our imagination in a different way, and both film and writing are works where the author or the filmmaker are very intentional about directing our imaginations and they're just leaving different work up to us. 

Darrell Bock: 

You know I've done film consulting for some of the ancient work, some of the ancient materials that are involved Jesus where I get asked questions about what the ancient world was like. And there's a part of me that goes, "Well, I did not live in the first century, so I'm not exactly sure necessarily how this works". They're trying to draw on whatever expertise they think I have about that kind of life. But there's something very real happening about the choices that you make in triggering the imagination. This will be true whether you're in film or in just through the use of words. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

No, absolutely. And again, going back to how we can be more reflective, I think looking at those questions, I'm reading a Russian author right now and noticing often how he directs my attention so much. The way he narrates the story just forces me to make a certain interpretation. And it's just delightful to watch that picture be painted by words. 

Kasey Olander: 

I feel like that's something that's really cool about getting to interact with an artist, either like an author or painter or filmmaker, or is seeing their intentionality, some of which you may or may not have picked up on, but that they have to determine every single detail of the way that they're going to convey what story they're telling, what they're emphasizing, and what they're leaving out. 

Darrell Bock: 

Yes That's actually one of the fascinations about attending say, a Sundance Film Festival, is that you not only get to see the film, but you get to interview the people who produce the film and ask, "Why did you make these choices? And what was motivating you to tell the story this way versus that, or to pose the problem in this way versus that." And literature is doing the same thing in many cases. At least good literature is, it's posing questions for us that are designed to make us think and reflect about life. And the choices that are made either do that effectively or ineffectively as the case may be. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

That's exactly right. I couldn't have put that any better myself. That's exactly right. And good literature does do it well and bad literature doesn't, and we have to sort of have a sense of what the author's trying to do. We don't want to make the intentional fallacy, but it's the same as if someone's making a fence and we know it's supposed to be a fence, we can tell whether it's a good fence or not, right? 

Darrell Bock: 

So let me put you a little bit on the spot. Someone isn't a big fan of literature, but they listen to this and they go, "Oh, well maybe this is something I ought to do in my life." What would you recommend to get them started? Where would you take them? To say, "Here, I think you'll read this, and I think this will be a good place to... 

I think this will be a good place to start. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Well, my favorite answer to this question... I have several answers, but my go-to answer is the work that I write the most about. I've done an edition of this volume, and I write essays about it, and it's Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë. If people aren't familiar with it, they think it's a love story, and there is love in it, but really that's not what it's about. 

It is really an allegory of the modern Christian soul trying to find authentic faith in a place in a world that is nominally Christian, and that makes it even harder. Culturally Christian. And I recommend it because it's written in the first person, and the voice of Jane just draws you in. It's like you're sitting down and someone is telling you their story. It's easy to read in that way, even though it's thick. 

But I like to give a lot of options. And so, I would say, let's see... My favorites aren't necessarily the ones that I highly recommend to other people, because they're a little odd and can be off-putting. I think East of Eden is another wonderful book, especially for any... If your listeners are seminarians primarily or people interested in theological education, East of Eden is so rich in its Biblical allusions and themes, and even in some ways it's almost like a retelling of some of the major stories in Genesis. And so, that is a wonderful work. 

I would say if you're interested even in practicing paying attention to literary language, there's no better practice to force yourself to do that then to read poetry, and you don't have to pick the hardest poetry. You could pick... Garrison Keillor did a book a few years ago, like his hundred best poems or something like that. And so, there's a wide variety, and reading poetry, even modern poetry, is a good way of just sort of playing with language and paying attention to how it can be used. So, those are a couple of suggestions. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, I'll ask you the question this way, and maybe this is an unfair way to ask it, but you recommend something like Jane Eyre and I go, "My wife would like that book." 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

It's not chick lit! Everyone thinks it is, but once you read it, you'll know it's not. 

Darrell Bock: 

Okay. Well, that's good to hear. Because I was going to ask you, so, what about for us gentlemen who want to read? Do you have anything that you think is gender-targeted? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Jane Eyre is not chick lit. I will say that. I'll also say Jane Austen is not chick lit. So many people get their opinions on the badly-made films. Jane Eyre is sharp, sharp satire. But yeah, I said East of Eden. East of Eden would be a good sort of more gender-neutral one. I love Peace Like a River by Leif Enger. That would be a good one that might attract more gentlemen. A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens is a great historical kind of novel. So, yeah. 

Darrell Bock: 

Go ahead. 

Kasey Olander: 

So, maybe the flip side of that then I think would be, how would you challenge or encourage a listener who already loves reading to go a little bit deeper or read a little bit better? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah. So again, I mentioned before, I try to challenge myself a little bit by reading the kind of genres and modes I don't like. I love 18th and 19th century literature, so I challenge myself by trying to read more contemporary literature. So, things like that that we can stretch ourselves. 

I recommend this podcast all the time. I've been on it. They don't pay me to do this. But the Close Reads podcast is wonderful. It does exactly what the title sounds like. It will pick a work of literature and take several weeks to go through it section by section. It's a great way to hear people who love that work and know something about it, talk about it, but in stages. I think that's a good way of maybe revisiting works that you love, or being introduced to works that maybe you've been afraid or intimidated by. 

And just anybody who's already a reader, you can just... I'm trying to do this myself. I'm trying to put my phone down more and pick up the book more. There's so many things competing for our attention. Just to spend more time with better quality reading is helpful. 

Kasey Olander: 

Right. To read something that is not measured in characters, but in maybe pages can be refreshing. So, I think that my last question would probably be, on behalf of many people who have grown up being required to read things that they did not necessarily find riveting, what is the point of having children read literature? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah, that's a good question. I do actually think that a lot of people are turned off of literature because they're forced to read works that are above their head in school. And I am a teacher, and I have taught a little bit of high school English, and do like to see students challenged. But I also think that often in school we emphasize quantity of pages rather than quality of reading. And so, we teach bad habits that way. We teach the skimming and the quick reading and focusing on the what rather than the how. 

And so, I think if you're a parent or someone trying to motivate younger readers to read, just help them find whatever they love to read, and develop that skill of reading, and hopefully those students or those young people will go on to read better and more things. But so many of them aren't reading at all that I don't really worry too much about what they're reading. I would just want them to read something and get some pleasure out of it, and then maybe help them challenge themselves a little bit more. 

Darrell Bock: 

So, a variation of the question is... Because I remember, and I've seen my kids actually do this with their children, and that is, "You're going to put the phone down, you are going to spend some time reading," etc. Is there a good way into that space for the child who says, "Oh man, I'd much rather have my phone in my hand than a book in my hand?" That kind of thing. And/or, variation, are there things that are worth reading together as a family, in which the parent and child are reading the same thing at the same time? 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah, this is not my area of expertise, so I don't know. But I think there are lots of ways to approach it, including reading things at the same time, but also reading things out loud. I know many parents who will read a work to their children. My mother read to us even when we were teenagers, like a chapter a night instead of just a storybook. And to model it for our kids, and to ask them about what they're reading to engage with them, there are lots of ways to do that. And 10 or 15 minutes a day is better than no minutes a day. So, I think that we can all build that space into our lives. 

Darrell Bock: 

What I'm hearing there is there might be some wisdom in building up to it as opposed to just saying, "You will read for a half hour or 45 minutes every day." And my joke is, "You will read and you will like it." Maybe the way to do it is to ease in and to add five minutes over a period of time, five more minutes, and eventually hopefully it catches. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Exactly. And for some it won't catch. I think that's okay, too. We're all built and wired differently, and I think parents need to come to peace with that as well. 

Kasey Olander: 

Any closing thought in our last minute before we wrap up? 

Darrell Bock: 

Not for me. Last word, Karen? What would you say to those who are intrigued perhaps by what they heard and maybe came into the podcast saying, "Why did I decide to listen to this one?" 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Yeah, I would just say especially for someone who maybe isn't an experienced reader, doesn't think they're a good reader, to pick up a book that interests them that's a classic work of literature or a highly regarded work of literature, and just see what you can do reading that book 10 or 15 minutes a day. If it takes a year, you'll still have read that book in a year. That's advice I often give. 

But read for quality, not for quantity, and just slow down and think about language. Because we use language all the time, and that's one of the gifts that literature can give us, is not just the joy of the story, but a greater understanding of how language works, and then therefore of how being made in the image of a God who is the Word has implications for our understanding of Him and ourselves. 

Kasey Olander: 

That was a beautiful closing thought. I think it's a perfect place to land the plane. We've covered so much ground from talking about the value of literature and storytelling in general. And I think that woven throughout there's been this really pastoral encouragement from you, Karen, that wherever you might be, if you read a million books a year or if you're like, "I'm one of those who has not read one," that it's okay. 

You can start where you are and that there's a place for you. You don't have to get a doctorate in order to be a good reader, but that it can be something that's accessible and then also that it's formative for us as humans. It helps us to understand the way that God has designed us as His creatures and as people to be in relationship with Him. And so, this has been a rich discussion. Thank you so much for being with us and taking the time today, Karen. 

Karen Swallow Prior: 

Thank you so much for having me. It was a rich conversation. Thank you. 

Kasey Olander: 

It's so fun. We also want to say thank you to you, our listener, for being with us. If you like our show, make sure to leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app so that other people can discover us, can discover the joy of literature. We hope that you'll join us next time when we discuss issues of God and culture to show the relevance of theology to everyday life.