How to Counsel Women in Abusive Marriages

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, hello. I'm Bill Hendricks, the Executive Director for Christian Leadership at the Hendricks Center, and it's my privilege to welcome you to The Table podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture. And today the issue that we want to discuss is rather serious, having to do with domestic violence. And we want to particularly aim it toward women who are in the church and those who pastor those women. This is a topic that frequently doesn't get talked about, which is precisely why we wanted to bring it to bear here on The Table podcast. The Emory University School of Medicine, which defines domestic violence as it's commonly referred to as intimate partner violence, but points out that 85% of the victims of domestic violence turn out to be women and a woman is beaten every nine seconds in our culture. And every year, nearly 5.3 incidents of intimate partner violence occur among US women 18 and older. 

And yet most of those incidents are never reported to the police. And even despite that under reporting roughly half of all calls to police departments are domestic violence calls. And only one in five of those victims with physical injuries seek professional medical solutions. So this is a major problem, but it's under the radar problem. And yet if you're a pastor or a church leader, you have in your congregation and in the folks that you're trying to work with on a daily basis, whether you're aware of it or not, women who are suffering from domestic violence. And to help us unpack this and begin to think about it both from a theological standpoint as well as a pastoral standpoint, we have my colleague, Dr. Robert Duckworth with us. Dr. Duckworth is the Director of Counseling Services as well as Adjunct Professor of Counseling Ministries here at the seminary. Robert, thank you for being on The Table. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Glad to be here and to be able to share in this conversation on such an important topic. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So maybe just as a way of jumping in, because you're a counselor, if it's under reported and it's below the radar, what are the signs that you look for when it comes to abuse? How do you even end up knowing if somebody's suffering from this? 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Oftentimes, Bill, we don't know unless it ... It usually would come out through a number of sessions where you would sit down with someone and you have to have built that level of trust for them to even bring it to the surface. I mean, you can suspect things, but it could be any number of types of trauma that one has experienced that you can see in their countenance in terms of a depressive look, flat affect, not much emotion could be signs, but that could be signs of any other thing. So really you won't know it until it's really verbally shared. Typically, you're not going to see any physical signs. Now, you might make that assumption if someone wears sleeves or something often or something like that, but it really has to come out and it has to come out through some trust in that counseling setting. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So the leader, the pastor, really has to engender that trust. And I guess that begs the question, if you have any thoughts of how a pastor might do that, because you've obviously got a bit of a power differential there. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I could see a parishioner, a member of a church not even wanting to share that with their pastor because of the big S word. Shame. Not wanting to share that. And it depends on what pastors we're talking about. A senior pastor would probably miss this all together. If they're mostly preaching, doing leadership activities, they may not even see it. It's those pastors that actually get involved and if it's more of a smaller congregation where they're able to get involved with doing some pastoral counseling, they may have an opportunity to see that once they've built those relationships, built those alliances, that rapport with those members, they may do it. So if it goes under the radar to us and we're sitting with them and it takes a number of sessions or really a strong relationship, it's going to be very difficult for a pastor. 

Bill Hendricks: 

A senior teaching pastor. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Oh, absolutely. That would be very difficult for them to see. So it's probably going to be more of a pastoral care person doing those types of- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Maybe even a small group leader. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Small group leader. Those are very important. Those are very important in terms of seeing those things. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And I take it it might be the case where let's say a woman, she really wants to unburden herself, but she's not quite ready to do so. She might actually come in and present a different problem like, "I want to talk about my son today." And there may be some issues with her son, but behind that, she's testing to see is this person safe enough to tell what I really would like to share. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

It is so interesting that most recently ... And I don't very careful when I talk about most recent situations, but I'm not talking about a counseling situation, but just talking with some of my supervisees, those that work under me as counselors at various sites. So no one can ever narrow this down to who's he talking about, because it happens all the time. People come with what we call presenting concerns, and it's exactly what happens. The presenting concern is, I don't know how to control my kids. Well, who does know how to control their kids? 

Bill Hendricks: 

I don't like the music that they're singing in the choir. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. And they bring that, but then they're building that trust. And we have those conversations all the time in our counseling practicum courses where it's like, well, what's the real root of this client's issue? What are they coming for? But it requires patience, long suffering, being there with the client, being present with them to get them to that point where they feel comfortable saying, "You know what, it's something else I've been wanting to talk to you about." It doesn't always come out that clean, but it does come out like that. But it takes time. Rapport. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, you mentioned the term shame, which certainly has emotional, psychological components to it, but shame also has some spiritual dimensions to it. And it strikes me that there's a number of spiritual dynamics in play here that I think pastors need to particularly be aware of because they are indeed concerned with matters of the spirit. And shame is one, fear would be one. I'm afraid that if I unveil this, bad things are going to end up happening on the backside. This news are going to get out. And if I thought I had it bad before, once he finds out about this, it's going to get worse. Or guilt, like I feel like I've done some things that invited what I got. Say I got sexually abused. Well, I've convinced myself that maybe I came on real strong with this person and it got out of control and now I feel really guilty even though I've basically got abused. Or worthlessness, like this has been going on for a while and I've just come to think that I'm a piece of trash, that I don't matter. All of those are matters of the spirit. Seems to me a pastor has a vital role to play in all those, but they've got to be sensitive to how they deal with those. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. And you've unpacked a lot there. So that whole action that we hear all the time in these scenarios like this or people just talking about abuse that they've experienced, trauma they've experienced from the past, even as children, it's easier, Bill, to sit in there and say, I did something wrong so that it gives me the power to say, I can control this. I wasn't out of control. I wasn't unable to control the situation. I could have controlled this. And that somewhat gives them that temporary sense of ... But it's a false sense of power in that scenario. And then we have to be aware of those things. 

Our pastor's not going to recognize that because they're not trained to recognize those things. But environments like this create some awareness that that may be a little bit more of what's going on under the surface and that's where the pastors can refer out. Even some pastoral counseling could reveal a lot of this. It just depends on the pastor and who has that heart for counsel. That's why I'm always so encouraged when our pastoral students and THMers are coming and saying, "I want to take some counseling courses." Because it's going to create that awareness. But yeah, you're unpacking something where that person is really trying to control that situation and take the onus off of the perpetrator, put it on themselves so that they feel a sense of that I didn't lose control. But they did and it was nothing they could do about that. And so we have to unpack all of that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I can see taking that control puts them in a real bind because if they had control, then the question becomes, well, how come then you let that happen? Oh, well now they feel more shame. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Then it becomes that cycle. That cycle of that. And it's very difficult. But when an individual does that, they're only doing what they know how to do on their own. It's survival. It's really a form of survival for them. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Wow. Well, there's many directions we could go here. Let me go in the direction of, you mentioned the pastor may want to refer out and then others may have had some training before they refer out. So I assume there's somewhat of a continuum there of the pastor's, I don't want to just say ability, but really by rights, when should they refer out and how far can they go based on what they've already been trained in? How do you guide a pastor in that area? 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

There's really two types of counsel that we can render to an individual. It's pastoral counseling and then there's clinical counseling. And to differentiate those two, clinical counseling are those like myself that went to school and were prepared, received licensure. Not always licensing, but typically it's licensed and you have some responsibility to a professional organization like the American Counseling Association, American Psychological Association. But you have standards, you have all of those practices that come within that organization and within that profession. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And we're talking hours and hours and hours of preparation, right? 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Hours and hours and hours. It's a lot of those. It kind of brings back, triggers some things for me. But it's all of those, but you're learning those clinical skills, practicing those different theories of counseling. Cognitive behavioral, solution focused, narrative therapy, that's my thing. Person-centered therapy. All of those theories. And there are techniques, clinical techniques that go along with that. And when you're practicing those, what we call evidence-based approaches to serving clients, that comes out of the psychological community, that comes out of that theory. Pastoral counseling on the other hand, very important. I always used to tell my pastoral counselors that were on staff, "This is not a less than counseling. You may have an opportunity to go a lot further than others will be able to go because you're not mandated by a licensing board to say what you can and cannot do. You still have some ethics, absolutely. Pastoral ethics. But you're not mandated by those type of ethics." 

And so those individuals may be able to have more contacts with a client, talk to them or the phone, checking in with them, bringing in other advisors as a pastoral counselor with the client's permission or the person's permission. We're a bit more limited by that, but we have to really remain objective. So that's where the clinical and the pastoral differentiates. But a lot of times we can come alongside one another and do some really good work with our clients. And so with those scenarios, when a pastor sees that it's clinical and it requires some further training than they've received as a pastor in terms of theoretical training, therapeutic technique, they need to refer out. It's very important that they refer out in those particular scenarios. 

Bill Hendricks: 

I don't know if this is the best analogy, but it is this akin to somebody who's an EMT, an emergency medical technician, who arrives on the scene of an accident and I can get you to the hospital. I can keep you alive and get you to the hospital. But now I got to turn you over to the brain surgeon who's going to help with the wound to your head or whatever. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I'm going to steal that from you as I describe the purpose of counseling. That is a beautiful illustration. Because you're going to be ... Not saying you, but the pastor could be that first point of contact. People don't just wake up and say, "Let me go talk to a counselor." They don't even know where the counselors are. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But they know who the pastor is. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

But they know who the pastor is. For the context that we're talking about, the demographic we're talking about, there's trust in the pastor. They trust the word that's coming from the pulpit. They trust the counsel that has been given to elders and others there. And those individuals are a great point of contact on the scene. And when they recognize it, I have a place for you to go. That's a wonderful illustration right there. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So it seems to me it behooves any pastor or somebody who's in a pastoral role to have taken some effort to find folks like yourself, professional clinical counselors as a referral base so not if but when these situations come along, to be able to say, "Listen, I know someone that I've checked out and have a lot of confidence in that I'd like to put you with because I really think they can take this way beyond what I'm going to be able to do." 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

And I've experienced that. I've been on the receiving end of that. As a counselor, one of the first locations where I did that was with a church where the pastor came to me shortly after I graduated and said, "I believe that's something our church could use." And having that referral base to go to, it got to the point where I was actually able to just go to the church every weekend, Fridays or Saturdays or both, and sit down with clients and be available. And they were able to bring me in, contract with me to do some counseling with the parishioners there. I was not a member, so there were no dual relationships and I was able to do my supervised hours there and all of that. And they had someone that could go beyond. The pastor might have met with him a couple of times, may have met with a couple in terms of just the marital piece, and then saw that there were some other issues with the individual spouses in there. 

And so knowing that and having that referral base, and it has made a tremendous difference. My former church, we did the same thing. We contracted with a counseling center and I was over pastoral care shortly after I graduated, and I knew I couldn't counsel the folks in my own church cause of my restrictions. But I was able to get our people to a location where they could get those services and I as a pastoral care personnel could recognize those issues and say, "Hey, let's get them in to talk with someone else." And now you've got a wonderful evangelistic approach to reach out and really deal with the whole member versus preaching to them every Sunday, which they must have. I don't want to get away from that. And God wants us to be able to work in their lives and do some of that James 2 work, give them what they need. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, to borrow a phrase from a premarital counselor that I once heard, he said we need to make use of what he called the extended resources of the body of Christ. And so yeah, there's a lot at church within the four walls that can be tremendously helpful from a pastoral standpoint, but oftentimes we need to make use of believers who are outside those four walls but have the same faith commitment, the same commitment toward wholeness and holiness and healing, but also have training to go into some of those deeper waters. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And that's the extended resources of the body of Christ. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Great analogy of that extended resource. And that's what we see ourselves as is ... I used to, when I would work with our students on that, I would talk to them about those very things. Is that when it talks about it in James 2, giving people what they need for the body and we can't merely tell them to go in peace, be warmed and be filled about your domestic abuse scenario. We have to give you what you need. I think that principle applies to counseling very much so because now we're able to give our parishioners what they need to take care of their presenting concerns. And those extended resources are so very important. And I just believe when churches do ... And this is by no means what I'm trying to say or communicate, but if you want to see your church grow, take care of some people. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. Because it's out there 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

And they need it. Because we should care for the sheep. We don't know who these individuals could be as kingdom builders, but we have to help them get through their presenting concerns and that could be a domestic violence situation. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Let me ask a technical question before we jump into some deeper things. You mentioned the word ethics. I know if a church leader discovers say that a child is being abused, they have a legal responsibility to report to the authorities. Does that extend to a parishioner who's an adult, they know abuse is taking place on a regular basis? Are they beholden then to report that to anybody? 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Morally, yes. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's a moral thing. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

When you are a part of an organization ... And I would go and research this. Do like the Bereans, go and make certain- 

Bill Hendricks: 

There you go. Yeah. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Make certain I know what I'm talking about. But typically where I've seen it is when you're in an organizational capacity whereas you're a ministry leader serving in a church and you learn of abuse with minors, you have an obligation as what we call a first ... My goodness. I don't know why it's just escaping me. You're a mandatory reporter. You're a mandatory reporter to report those things to the appropriate authorities that that abuse is going on in those situations. Now, technically with an adult that's married, you're not- 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're not obligated. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Obligated in those situations. But then it becomes a moral- 

Bill Hendricks: 

A matter of conscience. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Yeah. A matter- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Do I keep my mouth shut? 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Exactly. And I think a lot of times that does happen, but a lot of times when those individuals feel that comfort level, that trust level with you as just a fellow parishioner, then they'll say, "You know what, I think I need to talk to someone about this." And then that person can then in turn take them to someone in the church that's in leadership to assist with that. Giving them that type of support and what have you. But yeah, we would hear about things even as counselors. When it's an adult in an abusive situation, we can recommend you go get some help, but there's no marriage protective services like there is child protective services. That's a whole different ballgame right there. 

Bill Hendricks: 

All right. Well, let me open up a can of worms here. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

More worms. Go ahead. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And this, we almost need to devote a whole podcast to this at some point with somebody. But you get here, I would think, into the issue of church discipline where these two folks, let's say are members of your congregation, and this comes to light to you as a leader. How does the church hold, in this case, the spouse accountable to say, "Hey, look, what you're doing with your wife is not really acceptable. This is not loving your wife as Christ loved the church." And I realize there's going to be a whole spectrum of how churches want to deal with that. But I'd welcome any thoughts or input you have on that one. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I mean, I think you can follow that Matthew 18 model to work through that trying to restore. We're always working towards restoration. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Exactly. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Child Protective Services works on restoring the child back to their family. Well, we better as a church work on restoration, but it doesn't always work that way because the Holy Spirit has to move in that person's heart. And if they are unrepentant about that situation, church discipline is very, very appropriate. I want to encourage churches to have it in your bylaws or in some writing that we do render church discipline. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You got to make it clear. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Make it very clear, because we live in a very litigious society. But I think we have a lot of freedoms in those areas to say we do church discipline. And that would absolutely fall under church discipline. If that person is in leadership, they can't remain in leadership. You're not following the directive of Ephesians 5. You're not honoring the institution established in Genesis 2. So absolutely. I think that we just need to have those things written out, spelled out when we're planning churches, when we're talking about, well, you have to have all of those things now because you are now an organization. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And make it clear to people when they join. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. Oh yeah. That this is what we do. Even that can help mitigate some behaviors perhaps. It's not going to clear up domestic violence in a church, but it lets them know that we as a church take this serious and we are not sweeping this, as the world believes we do, up under the rug. We're not doing that. And I think it's a good way to take that very serious. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, it seems to me this is one place where some of the other men in the church could be invaluable to come around a brother again, with the view to restore, not to beat up on. But to say, "Hey brother, we want to come alongside you. There's clearly some stuff going on here and we're with you in this, but we also want to keep you from abusing your wife here." 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. It's great opportunity for doing further ministry. And it's there. It's in our churches. It's on our church. We kind of chatted about that before. If you look at a church and certain sizes, there's somebody in that audience that's experiencing that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. There's many somebody's in a large church. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Oh yeah. Absolutely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I want to get into the question of the roots of this, because I'm guessing that both for many women who find themselves in abusive relationships, this didn't necessarily start in that relationship. That it has tentacles that go sometimes all the way back into childhood. I'm also guessing that for the abuser, it's quite similar. That they also have a pattern that goes back into childhood. Talk about either of those two sides. First the woman. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Well, we plausibly, it could be if one's ... This is just an if scenario. If one witnessed those types of behaviors, they might not have even witnessed physical abuse, but if they were one that lacked affirmation, some type of autonomy in their growing up or rearing, they may be susceptible to a lower self-esteem. And it almost seems spiritual, man. That- 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's the worthlessness piece. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

That this is what I have to accept I can do. And then it's almost like they find these people. Now, if you want to look at it from a truly theological perspective, the enemy leads them in that direction. And they find these individuals and then they perpetuate that what they've experienced for most of their life, if not all of their life. And I have seen scenarios where they go from one ... It's a pattern, a theme. They go from one relationship to the next that has some- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Abuse. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Some abuse of some level. And they may not have even experienced or witnessed physical abuse, sexual abuse or anything growing up. But they end up in those scenarios with one that has those traits. So that could very well be the case, or it could be a woman that just literally married a bad guy. 

And it just happens. It does happen like that a lot. Had a very good home. And see, a person that's coming from a very good home, Bill, they may be completely naive that, hey, I can trust whomever. And then they find themselves in that situation. For a guy that may be the perpetrator of domestic violence or abuse, may have witnessed that. And now this is that person's opportunity, that man's opportunity to exert power. Or they've witnessed a father who was abusive. Or mother. It could be vice versa. That was verbally abusive to the dad. And this is my way to combat that. This thing between our ears, man, it gets all mixed up. And the way we process things and the way it comes out, it can just come out any kind of way. It's kind of like a dream. If you take in all this information throughout your life and then you dream this crazy dream and it comes into a narrative of some sort through a story for those few seconds you dream at night. 

That's how it happens, is that all of this that you've taken in comes out and it comes out and sometimes the dream doesn't make sense. Sometimes the behaviors don't make sense and that's what comes out. And so it could be the result of that type of behavior that they've witnessed or they were just never told no as a child. Be careful when you're- 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're angry. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Very permissive and letting children do whatever they want to do because they think they can take that into any scenario. And I can think of children, and I'm not even thinking of children I've ever even spent a second of time counseling them. Watched them in children's sports and the way the parents catered to them. I don't know if I'd want my daughter to marry that person or date them. Because it's that mindset of expectation. And so I would say almost always, there's a family of origin challenge that comes into that. We have to always investigate that at least. There's no guarantee in that. Let me be very careful in saying that. But it's highly probable that something in the home has created that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And so let's say to the woman who perhaps is experiencing this, I assume that going into counseling, part of the discovery process in that counseling engagement is to go back and revisit some of those ancient wounds from her past, or in the case of the gentleman, to go back and revisit some of those ancient wounds because that's really the source of what's driving this behavior in the present. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And so they can just expect that that's really part of what the counseling is about, is to help you unpack that stuff. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I'll say eventually. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Eventually. Yeah. Because it's an excavation. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Oh, it's building rapport. I mean, first thing, if you take someone that's been in an abusive relationship, the first thing we have to do is meet ... You've probably heard about the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Just that level of safety. Do you have a place to stay? Where can you go? Where can we get you to? Or what can the church do to get you to those services? Churches need to have a list of those battered women's shelters that are available. We have those. We have lists of those. We have students working in practicums in these locations, doing those things. So I mean, that's something many of us here have access to and a lot of churches would. But just researching that, having a pastoral care person know where those places are to meet just those basic needs. She may not have food. How is she going to take care of her children? We have to meet those needs by just recommending those. And I think a pastoral person could jump right in there and do those things. Because there's this whole notion now that counselors are having to become more social workers now. We're having to broker services for our clients, which is not wrong, and do that advocacy work. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's just more on top of what you thought you were supposed to do. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. Because we want to be objective in as many opportunities ... I was reading a textbook the other day. The fewer the contacts you have with a client outside of counseling, the better because you want to be objective and focused on just that particular scenario. However, a pastoral person can go a little bit further in those areas and help them meet those needs and then from there, just literally being present with the client. That's where you're listening. Not doing what Job's friends did. You need to listen, be present, affirm, create those scenarios where you're able to ask those questions. Well, what would help you in this situation? What do you think would make things better for you right now? And that now puts some autonomy in their lap to say, "You mean to tell me I now have a voice in that which could make things better for me?" 

Yeah. That's what this environment is for. And being able to do that, a pastoral counselor could do that. A clinical counselor could do it. And then putting them in that place and then affirming them when they come up with their own ideas of what to do. And we're not in the business of telling you what to do. We're just in the business of creating a space where you feel that autonomy that you probably never have felt. And then just listening to people. I thought one of the silliest things I ever heard in a counseling methods class with Dr. Martin when I was a student here was there's healing in the telling. I said, "Wait a minute. I'm a counselor. I'm supposed to get in here and help people." No. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to eat those words or those thoughts about that just being something that was just a bunch of psycho mumbo jumbo. 

And I have apologized to my former professor about that and told her, I said, "That works." There's healing in the telling. And clients have come back to me afterwards and said, "I don't know what it was about today, but it just felt good to say something and talk to you about it." And we have to create those environments where they can do that. Whether it's pastoral, the senior pastor who has time to do this, which is few and far between, or a clinical mental health professional. So I think giving them that space. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So you're back to the issue of trust, really. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Trust, absolutely. And that has to be built to give them that space and then walking them through. Then I think that's where you can get into the story. I'm a narrative therapist, so I believe- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah, tell us a little more about that. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Yeah. I believe in working through a narrative therapeutic process where we eventually hear the client's story. Some situations you can sit down in the first session and say, "Tell me your story." And that client begins to unload and unpack that. But the goal of the narrative therapist is to try to find some themes in there. What are some things that we keep hearing? Point those out to the client or ask the client, "What do you keep hearing? What do you keep hearing yourself say?" And then they pick up, "Well, I've never thought about it. That I find these relationships where I feel less than, that I don't feel worthy of being in it, and I have to settle. I felt like that when I was choosing a sporting team or a sport that I could play. I played things that I felt like I could do well in, but I never tried things that I would've been challenged in." Themes. When we look for those themes. 

But our goal is also to help them look for those places of resiliency. Where were you able to be strong? Well, how can we apply that here now? That doesn't mean you stand up to your abusive husband. No. That's telling a person to go in and put themselves in harm's way. But it at least empowers them to say, there are things I can do. So I'm big on narrative and helping a client rewrite their story. Now you'll get a lot of flack about that in the theological world. Well, the Lord helps. Well, of course he helps us write our story. But- 

Bill Hendricks: 

First he's got to have a story to work with. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Have a story to work with, and God uses us. He uses a multitude of counselors to support in that particular area. So I love that narrative therapy. I fell in love with that many years after I finished my program and that's what I lean into quite a bit now. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, I'm on the same page there with you. I believe that the best way to understand people is not really through psychometrics. They have their place, but through story. And people are literally a character in a novel that they're living out a story in front of you. And just like every good novel, there's a beginning, a middle and end. There's all these different chapters, all these different scenes. And the person's usually never read their own story. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

And they haven't. 

Bill Hendricks: 

They need somebody to help them go back and tell that story. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. And that's ministry. That's ministry walking alongside. And God is the author of our stories. He allows things and he allows ... Not but. And he allows those of us, whether it's in a spiritual formation setting with our lead process here in our leadership institute here, or a center for leadership here, wherever, walking people through their stories. It's a beautiful thing. I don't know why I didn't discover it way before now, but it has taught me so much. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, and that God redeems stories. It's like Joseph and his brothers. You intended it for evil. God meant it for good. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Perfect biblical example. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But he was able to see the whole narrative. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

And had to experience. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And had to experience the whole narrative. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

That we don't always like- 

Bill Hendricks: 

The good, the bad, the ugly. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

We don't always like going through. Because the Bible is narrative. I think we can definitely compliment that theory with our biblical narrative. And that's encouraging oftentimes for our clients, particularly in my work as a director of counseling at the seminary, where students understand both sides of the coin. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You mentioned safety when it's a ... We're in the crisis in the moment and this woman desperately needs relief immediately safety from the abuser. And you mentioned there may be a place where she and her children go and stay for a season. So I take it from that that sometimes it really is in order to put a bit of separation between the person and their abuser. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. Has to be that. Safety. You have to take care of that because we never get anywhere. 

Bill Hendricks: 

And so what you would not do is counsel somebody, "Well, you just got to go back in there and do the best you can." 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I won't ever do that. I don't believe I'd be led by the Holy Spirit to do that. I mean, I can't say what the Holy Spirit would do, but I've never had the Holy Spirit tell me to do something like that. It's not safe. Absolutely I would not advise anyone to go into a situation that was harmful or their life is in danger, or it could just cause a further demise. It could even lead to suicide or something like that. So absolutely not in those scenarios because that marriage, that abuser is not following the principles of scripture. I just shared a message a couple weeks ago at my church about how your marriage is in the Christian context, ought to not be this thing where people just be something where people say, "Well, I want to have a marriage like Robert and Asara." Or whomever and have these long ... No, no. The goal of our marriages ought to be to glorify God to the point that people look at our marriages and say, "I want to have a relationship with Jesus Christ because of the way I see a marriage and how it reflects that relationship between God and his people." 

A domestically abusive marriage does not reflect an evangelistic marriage. And I'm not saying I advise anyone, "Go get a divorce. You need to leave him." Or leave her or whomever. No. We got to get you to safety because that's not honoring God at this point. And we pray for that restoration. But they do have free will and they have to yield to the Holy Spirit in those particular scenarios. So no, I would not advise anyone to go back to an abusive situation at all. But I've heard of horror stories where people have been advised, stay and- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Just take it. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Take it. And that doesn't make any sense. 

Bill Hendricks: 

It's hard to see Jesus telling somebody that. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I just don't see it. I don't see him do it. And we'll get our naysayers. But I'm trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit, and I'm trusting in the inherent word of God to drive my Christian ethic to say, I can't do that. 

Bill Hendricks: 

So I'm going to ask you a very difficult question here. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Okay. That's common. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Because I'm just thinking through this couple, and she's really scared and really has taken a lot of abuse and he's got an anger issue or whatever his issue is that keeps him doing this. And I think about, okay, we've got them separated here, but now goes to hard work of how do we put this thing back together? And my question sort of boils down to the lion's share of the burden here, is it on her or is it on him that something's got to happen inside to make this work? 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I would think it would be him because he's the perpetrator of those- 

Bill Hendricks: 

So God's got to do some real serious surgery on this guy's part. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

And he can do it. We serve a God that can do it. We serve a God that can do it. He has redeemed sex offenders. He has deemed murderers. He can- 

Bill Hendricks: 

He can redeem abusers. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Abusers. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Does it happen? Yes, it happens. Have I seen it happen a whole lot? No. Because people choose to stay in their depravity. But yeah- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Here's where we really got to ... Yeah, we want to come around her, but we really got to come around him too. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. And I see the onus being more so on him because he's the one that's perpetrating that. In the scenario that we're talking about here. That's not to say that women cannot be abusive to their husbands. Happens every day. But we're talking about in the context of this hangout time between you and I, men being abusive towards women. He's creating this scenario. He's yielding to the enemy on such behavior. He has to be converted. And it will take the ... At the end of the day, if he has an anger issue and he gets on medication, the psychiatrist prescribes medicine, an anger management counselor or group counselor has to offer counseling and they support him, ultimately my biblical worldview drives me to believe it's going to be God that makes that change. And so we can put it like this, Bill, the psychiatrist plants, the counselor waters. But every time God's going to be the one- 

Bill Hendricks: 

God's going to increase. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

He's going to do that increasing there. But it's whether God chooses to move in that direction, the sovereign God, what he does. But a person can always choose to stay in their depravity. There's a hell for a reason. Cause somebody's not going to accept what he says. 

Bill Hendricks: 

But it does strike me that for many men that may be the first time in their life they've ever come to grips with the thought that God is actually for them, not against them. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's the gospel. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

That is the gospel. And I've seen enough of that in just prison ministry seeing that. And going in and seeing that he loves you and he's still wanting you. He's pulling you and drawing you to him. Do you accept? And I think that's where the challenge is. And a lot of people don't want to hear us say that, but that's real. We have to- 

Bill Hendricks: 

That's the gospel. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

It's the gospel. Had it not been, the problems I have Bill- 

Bill Hendricks: 

Well, none of us would be here. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

I wouldn't be here at all. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Robert, thank you very much. Our time has flown by, but this was just a boatload of very helpful information and encouragement as much as anything. Thank you very much. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Thank you for having me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

Thank you for your work. 

Dr. Robert Duckworth: 

Absolutely. Glad to. It's kingdom work, so I'm excited about doing it. Thanks for having me. 

Bill Hendricks: 

You're welcome. Thanks for being with us. And thank you for being with us on today's Table podcast. And we invite you, whatever your platform is that you receive this on, that you subscribe and join us again next time on The Table podcast. I'm Bill Hendricks. Have a good day.