Training Pastors Around the World

Darrell Bock: 
Welcome to The Table, we discuss issues of God and culture. And our topic today is focused on global Christianity and the training of ministers around the world. And I can't think of two better people to have to discuss this with than Michael Ortiz and Ramesh Richard, who are colleagues of mine at the seminary and have been engaged globally for much of their ministry careers. And so this is really a joy to have you guys with us. Michael, Ramesh, thank you for being a part of The Table today. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
Honored to be here with your Darrell, and glad we can be colleagues in God's economy. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Exactly. And so let me just introduce you all. Michael, who I sometimes refer to as Miguel Ortiz, is Vice President of Global Ministries. My joke for him is that he's vice president of the world. And Associate Professor of Missiology and Intercultural ministries here at Dallas Theological Seminary. So thank you, Michael, for being a part of this. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Thanks for having me, Darrell, appreciate it. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And Ramesh Richard is Professor of Global Theological Engagement and Pastoral Ministries at the seminary. And I think we've been on faculty just about the same amount of time, if I'm not mistaken, which means that we're both in our 40th year here, which is amazing to contemplate. But anyway, thank you, Ramesh, for being a part of this as well. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
A great honor, Darrell, thank you. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So let me open up, Michael I'll start with you. What's a nice guy like you doing in a gig like this when it comes to global ministry? And I'll be asking Ramesh the same question after you're done. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Yeah, the Lord... Some may know that I originally come from Florida. I'm an attorney by vocation, my background. And back in Florida, most of my ministry and missions had to do with work overseas in Latin America, and especially Cuba. And especially in the area of theological education, and trying to help the schools there in that part of the world, to develop their programs and provide some leadership, provide some counsel, and other things that I was able to do with the schools there. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Eventually, coming to Dallas Seminary to start working here in 2016, starting their Spanish program, the Spanish master's level program here, at Dallas Seminary, and also teaching out of the Missions Department. And then I became department chair a couple of years ago for the Department of Missiology and Intercultural Ministries. And just about three weeks ago, being asked to move into a vice president role for Global Ministries here at Dallas Seminary. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So the Lord over the years has continued to allow me to be engaged in theological education a lot in Latin America and Cuba, but then also, through another organization being involved globally, with really, leaders in education, theological education, from all regions of the world. So I'm trying to keep it as short as I can, Darrell, that's kind of how I ended up where I am today. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Let me ask you one follow-up. Talk a little bit about ICETE. Because I think that's the organization you were alluding to. Am I right about that? 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Yeah. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Explain what ICETE is because it isn't a little piece of ice, and then go from there. And tell us what they do. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Yeah, that's great. I'm glad you asked. ICETE stands for the International Council for Evangelical Theological Education, founded back in 1980, out of the World Evangelical Alliance. And in essence, what we do is we over... I serve as their director, their international director. We in essence, oversee about 1,000 schools worldwide connected to eight different regional accreditation agencies. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So that's a lot of what ICETE does. ICETE, also, however provides the services and support and things to add value to our schools worldwide and to our eight regional members. And on top of that, we really have been really successful over the years in leading consultations, or global gatherings, around theological education. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So over the years, ICETE has had 17 global consultations. This year because of COVID and some other things, we'll be doing something online, Lord willing, leading us to an in-person consultation in '22. But the reason I mentioned that is because ICETE also serves as a major global hub for evangelical theological education where people come together from various streams, various sectors, to discuss what's going on globally in theological education, and how might we be able to develop further community and collaboration points for the sake of the Church through education. So that's a little bit of what we do within ICETE. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay, and Ramesh, same question to you, what's a nice guy like you doing in a gig like this? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
I carry two burdens on my heart, one of which is evangelism. It began about 300 plus years ago, even though I don't look that old. It was because of two young men who came to southeastern India and brought the good news to my forefathers. And growing in a people rich, culture rich, country with the disadvantage of the gospel not being heard, I carry a burden for evangelism. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
While, that came from my heritage. The side that we're talking about today comes from the experience I had right after finishing at Dallas Seminary, and moving to New Delhi, India, to serve as a pastoral leader there. And I found that there were many, many currently serving pastors, not future pastoral leaders, but currently serving pastoral leaders who had little or no training for pastoral ministry. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And that became intensified as the congregation that I was serving continued to grow. I could not be in two places at a given time, so we had to invest in younger people. And as I became more aware of what is happening around the world, I saw a huge deficit between the trained and the untrained. With only 5% of all pastor leaders trained for pastoral ministry, we thought we'll set out to reduce the deficit of the trained. And therefore, a part of my life's work with intentionality and great focus has been reducing that deficit, Darrell. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay, tell us about RREACH, which is an organization that you also work with, you each come with both Dallas connections and outside connections. So, there's a nice balance to this. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
Yes. When I came back to the seminary about 34 years ago, for the second time, and our careers do run parallels, Darrell, I came with the understanding that the seminary would allow me to continue my global footprint. The seminary would give me time, if not the resources, to do it to continue with those two burdens of evangelizing leaders and strengthening pastors. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
So we established RREACH. And for 34 years, God in His permission and faithfulness, has allowed me to do the same two things in about 100 countries or more. Strengthening pastoral leaders is a key because it is the key to the health of the church. What I'm doing is based on two convictions. On the evangelism side that the gospel is not good news if it gets to anyone anywhere too late. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And on the training side, it is built on the conviction that pastoral health affects church health. And church health affects societal health. And with this massive gap between the trained and the undertrained and the isolated, we found out that we could do something urgently and large scale with intentionality, again, and follow up and documentation, that would allow us to see where God is working in massive, wonderful ways. And seeing, all this, to some extent, being completed. I'm sorry for that alarm. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Don't worry, no problem. So let me ask you this question, Ramesh. I'm trying to think now, the global conference that we had in Thailand was in 2016. Do I have that year right? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
That is correct. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And so talk a little bit about what that involved. And then, Michael, I'm going to ask you, kind of what you're envisaging happening from the seminary side that in some degree is a part of and a response to the very need that RREACH addressed in Thailand in 2016. Ramesh? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
Great. I identified five realities in the world today, each of which pose both need and opportunity. The first one is to sheer immensity of world population. So anything that we do needs to be scalable. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
The second is the world of the Christian faith. About a third of the world will have a census relationship with the Christian faith, but not all in the Lamb's Book of Life. So, what can we do to help currently, those in allegiance to the Lord Jesus to be a witness to the gospel in their spheres of influence? Sort of a spreadability criterion. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
The third reality is the world of the Church. There are many, many congregations being planted right now, up to 5 million of them, a million a year. But they will say that 70% of those will fail within the first year. So, we've got to look at sustainability issues. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
The fourth is the issue of pastoral leaders. There are about 2.2 million pastoral leaders in the world, and some estimates are 3.4 million, and there's only 5% that are trained for pastoral ministry. What could we do to have a speedability as a principle for operation and strategy? As you just heard, our colleague, Dr. Michael Ortiz, say there are about 1,000 schools. If every one of those schools graduated pastoral leaders, as every graduate, we'd be addressing the world need by 0.1% per year. So we're nowhere close. And we'll never catch up. With 50,000 new baptized believers every day, I usually say we need 1,000 new pastors every day, we're never going to catch up. So we need a speedability that has to be implemented. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
The fifth one is what I'm going to call pastoral trainers. Pastoral trainers. And stackability. Is there something we can do in these two major cylinders of formal theological education, which Michael Ortiz specifically represents, and non-formal pastoral training, which is a huge industry grown and populated by those who are formally trained to deliver on site, more relevant, long term, and less expensive help for pastoral leaders? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And so the Lord has allowed RREACH to undertake a 10 year human capital campaign in the last decade. We set out to reduce the deficit by 5%. That is 100,000 pastoral leaders. What you're referring to, Darrell, I'm so grateful that you were present with us in Thailand, we had over 2,500 trainers of pastors from both sectors, non-formal and formal, coming together to see, over eight days, as to what can be done. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
The most incredible thing happened. As a result of their commitment and RREACH's commitment to follow up and document rather than just pulling numbers out of the sky, the exact activity and reports, the Lord allowed us to get from all 248 states and nations and territories in the world, with a [inaudible] 147 of them where the Church was growing. The Lord has allowed us to document far beyond what we set out to do, under budget and ahead of time. So having finished those 10 years, we're now looking at what the next 10 years might bring in his will. And we can talk about that in the latter part of our podcast. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So the idea here is to take people who have had some pastoral training and discipleship experience and turn them into people who will train others who couldn't come to a seminary, are unable to come to a seminary and get formal training, and to give them some form of formal training. Is that the kind of basic goal? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
So we don't call it formal training, but we call it better training. We have seven basic areas which have been identified by TOPIC, Trainers of Pastors International Coalition, an organization that RREACH founded some years ago. As its key recommended emphases and outputs for a minimum viability of every pastoral leader anywhere. If they don't have that minimum basic viability, then acceptability becomes a problem in terms of personal health, in terms of ministry health, as well as in terms of church health. So, we're addressing those in a rapid format. We call it a [inaudible]. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay, well, Michael, while we're figuring out what's happened to him, let me ask you kind of how seminary deals with...what the seminary prospects are and what they're trying to do? 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
In terms of Dallas Seminary specifically? 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yeah, yeah. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So yeah, in this new position, as VP for global ministries, there's a few different initiatives that we're working on. But one of the main ones has to do with what do we do, what does Dallas Seminary do with all of our resources? Not just financial, but personnel and literature and courses and online courses, all the things that the Lord has allowed us to, over the last 100 years, really develop. Almost 100 years. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
How can we take all of that and begin to do something about the lack of pastoral training that we know exists worldwide? You heard from Ramesh a few minutes ago, he gave you some stats on the global state of affairs of pastors that don't have training. And that is true, and the church growth it continues. So, the question is, what can we do about it? 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So right now, quite frankly, we are in this discovery phase. And in this discovery phase, I'm speaking with a number of people, including Ramesh and various others in different parts of the world, trying to really glean and understand what might it be that the seminary can do to help tackle some of this, some of the issues involving lack of pastoral training worldwide. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Some of it can be collaborative. Some of it could be looking at the formal, non-formal sectors of theological education: how can they both come together in strategic, very specific ways to help in this issue? So there's a number of ways we can go about it. But right now, we're sort of trying to understand what might be the best lane for Dallas Seminary to take in this area. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
But I don't want to do Darrell, here's a conviction I do have. What I don't want to do is simply create another program that is dished out to the majority of world context, primarily, and have pastors receive more training online or anything like that. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
The gentleman, that we know that has estimated, by his estimates, there are probably about 40,000 non-formal programs worldwide. I mean, that is a ton of stuff that's out there already. So do we really need to create more? I don't know yet. I don't have the answer to that. But my conviction is this: if we create something, if we deliver something, there must be some type of follow-up, coaching, discipleship, mentoring, something along those lines. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Because a lot of these people, a lot of these pastors that are out there that would receive information and training online, it could be useful to them. But many of them really need someone to help them walk through it, and live it out, and help them on an almost day-to-day basis understand: what does this look like to carry these teachings out within your context? And that's another...that's a whole, another layer of theological education. It's not simply delivering information; it's walking with people to help them learn how to live in accordance to what you're delivering to them. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So it sounds like a huge challenge. And one that requires not one organization, but one that maybe helps coordinate people and the variety of activities that are required in order to make things work. Thanks, Ramesh for coming back in. And so, the challenge is the size and scope of what is being talked about here. And not just the creation of new programs, but trying to do, I guess, some coordination and cooperation that allows existing entities to work better together. Is that kind of [crosstalk]. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Yeah, that could definitely be part of it, Darrell. That could be part of what we do. The idea is, again, not to simply deliver content, but to have people with the pastors that help them learn how to live in accordance with that content. And Ramesh has done some of this with RREACH as well. One of the things that we could explore, for instance, are the 1,000 schools that I mentioned, in ICETE's network. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
I mean, how can we begin to mobilize some of them, may be in partnership with non-formal programs, maybe even some informal programs, to begin to serve pastures in different regions of the world. And so there's a lot of work to be done. But I think that we're moving in the right direction, for instance, with regard to RREACH and other organizations, both the formal and non-formal. We are excited about what's coming up with ICETE. In terms of this consultation, where the consultation theme for this next year, is formal and non-formal theological education in dialogue. And so we hope to have a robust, global, ongoing conversation over the next year really on this very topic, and see how we can facilitate and encourage the strategic partnerships around the world. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
It's great. Now, Ramesh you were noting that you've been through 10 years of work in this regard, and you're getting ready to map out the next 10 years, tell us a little bit about what you're hoping the next 10 years bring. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
So the emphasis of the last 10 years was on the 100,000 pastoral leaders. And the Lord has allowed us to document activity for about 280,000 of those. The key now is to see how we can perpetuate the cycle, to increase the number of trainers of pastors. And so, our focus over the next 10 years is 100,000 pastor trainers. And it is a perpetual cycle because the need never goes away. The vision is always alive. The burden is still on our hearts. Our focus over the next 10 years is 100,000 pastor trainers. And it is a perpetual cycle because the need never goes away. The vision is always alive. The burden is still on our hearts. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
So we've got to identify pastors who aren't trained, then we've got to engage trainers of pastors. And we've got to deliver the training of pastors. And then we've got to validate those who are trained, those who want to be validated. And then finally, we got to qualify new trainers of pastors. This is very helpful, because of any school that has training formally presented can quite easily be qualifying trainers, new trainers of pastors. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
That's one thing that Dallas Seminary can contribute to, ICETE can contribute to. Basically, the GProCommission, in its next iteration, is like a platform for two cylinders. One is a cylinder of non-formal training of pastors, where there's speed and scalability and so on, and spreadability issues and stackability issues. And then the formal theological piece, which becomes the backbone of providing the trainers... 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Okay, he's got connection problems, or we've got connection problems with him. So let me come to you, Michael. And hopefully he'll come back in one more time. So, I think I know who you were alluding to who said, well there are 40,000 different... It's Manfred Kohl. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Yeah, that's exactly right. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
He has spent his life to exploring what's going on globally in the Church in terms of all these programs. He's probably visited more seminaries himself than most of us are even aware of exist. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Oh, yeah. I mean, I promise you: he's visited more seminaries than anyone else in the world right now. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yeah. Yeah. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
Sorry, Michael and Darrell. I don't know what's happening. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
That's okay. We're just doing the best we can to forge ahead. So we're good.  
 
Darrell Bock: 
I'm in the process of talking to Michael about the seminary structures across the world. And kind of this bridge idea that we're talking about, about how to take people who are trained and do have formal training and helping them train those who aren't trained. One of the challenges, this is for both of you. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
One of the challenges, of course, with someone who's not trained is that not only do they have to wrestle with "How do I pastor?" which is one of the most basic things. But there's the content of what they teach in a context in which there's a lot of things being said under the Christian name, or the Christian banner that may or may not be biblical. And so actually getting them adequately trained from a teaching standpoint is important. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Ramesh, I'll let you lead off on this. You've done a lot of training with a lot of people from around the world. How great is that challenge? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And by the way, this is being recorded and it will be edited. Is that right, Darrell? 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yeah it'll be [crosstalk]. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
Michael, I heard your computer was hacked too. The four of us who had a hacked computer. We're facing the wrath of this. I'm so sorry about this. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Don't worry about it. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
All right. We believe that there are four basic areas of training that can significantly enhance both the trainer and the pastor. So here are the four. One, is spiritual maturity, which has to do with character. They've got to live biblically. Secondly, is effectual proclamation, which is to preach biblically. The issue that they sense is the biggest need because they have to get up and preach next weekend and they don't know what to say. That's the biggest felt need. The ultimate need, is character, living biblically. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
The third area, spiritual maturity, effectual proclamation, the third area is theological discernment. This is so they can think that biblically. They don't know the basic stuff about scripture and theology. So can we reinforce their evangelical convictions? Survey of the Bible: what do they know about the narrative of scripture and the themes and the stories. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And the fourth area is what I'm going to call pastoral ministry, in relationship to the congregations they have and in relationship with the world. That has dimensions of leadership, of evangelism, of counseling, of community, social ministries, and so on. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
So if we can do these four, in effective ways, with a collection and curation of large numbers of resources that are already available, to deliver them in every possible means, so they can learn it personally, either through mentoring or coaching, virtually, either through a learning system or management system that all of us know about. We're trying to find an excellent one, which is simple, which can be a one step away from all of this learning that's available. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And if we can distribute them through the three major streams: the non-formal training, pastoral training organizations, the formal theological education institutions, and then, the informal personal mentoring streams. So we have the resource providers from whom content can be donated, purchased or created. And the resource distributors, that is non-formal, formal, and informal distribution. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
In the center, we need a major diamond, a baseball diamond, sort of like a strategic butterfly. A bank to hold all of this, a base in terms of mobility, delivery to a base, bridges between non-formal, formal and informal, which Michael and I were talking about as best as we can, so we can encourage, dignify one another, not be suspicious of one another, but also do it well, and finally, a very slender backbone for operations and administration. So the project of big size and complication, and we're trusting that the Lord will help us all to be together in the next 10 years. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Well, it is a massive undertaking, and something that we all share a deep heart for seeing take place. And watching it develop is pretty exciting. Michael, talk about how, I guess I said in particular, you said they're opening up a dialogue in this regard. What are you hoping for from that dialogue? 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
That's a great question, Darrell. So we hope that we will have two days in November, where we will be online, and inviting different people from different parts of the world, all regions of the world, both from the non-formal, informal, non-formal and formal sectors of theological education. But we're also asking people that lead the churches and mission organizations to be part of the dialogue as well. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
In other words, for us, as educators, and those who are involved in theological education globally, we need to have...we need to hear from voices that represent the Church itself, and also missions organizations. So we will have those representatives, as well, be part of the conversation. We hope to begin this in November of over two days; we will then have three days in 2022, where we will have additional Zoom online meetings to further the conversation about what we can be doing in terms of building community and collaboration between the different sectors of theological education. Listening to the Church, and missions again, so we know what is actually going on on the ground and be able to help them, be able to provide the resources, training, literature, whatever the case may be, that they really actually need.  
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Some of us have been involved in theological education for some time know that the Academy is sometimes way over here, and the churches is on then this other side. And sometimes the Academy has little knowledge of what the Church actually needs. We don't want to do that any longer. We'd like to have the Church be part of this conversation as well.  
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So I've said: we are not an organization that is going to be doing the training ourselves. That's why I used the word hub. We're more of a hub organization. And within that hub, we hope to have all these different sectors and representatives of the church come together, build community, explore ways that they might strategically collaborate. And it could look different between different organizations and different regions of the world. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
It's a big world out there, Darrell, there's a lot of places to try to address and serve. And so we are hoping that through ICETE, and serving as that kind of global hub for evangelical theological education, that we can facilitate those kind of conversations, community building, collaboration and real transformation within cultures. But again, it's going to be up to those that participate, to actually carry it out. I said itself was not going to be [inaudible]...going to be carrying it out. RREACH, for instance, is going to play a big role in that, I know that. So we continue to foster and try to facilitate those kinds of gatherings and conversations and hopefully, collaboration points. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
So I'm going to completely shift gears and ask a question that you may not be prepared for. But I'll do the best I can to set it up. So someone's listening to this. They're either a pastor and a local church, or just a lay person who has an interest in the global Church. And they're probably sitting there, "Well, this is all pretty interesting, but what can I do? What role can I play in thinking about this? And in thinking about what it means for me to be a part of this Church, that's global, transnational, et cetera?" 
 
Darrell Bock: 
What would you say to them? What would be your word of encouragement to them as we work in this space? Ramesh, what would you say? I mean, obviously, you've been communicating with people in that position for a long time out of RREACH. So what would you say? 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Oh, did we lose him again? 
 
Darrell Bock: 
I think he froze again. Michael, go ahead and take your shot at this question. Hopefully, we'll get him back. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Sure. Sure. I think that what I would say to begin with is that first of all, lots of prayer. The churches need to elevate this and make it part of their daily, weekly prayer meetings and gatherings and topic of discussions. I think the pastors, those that are leading churches, they need to continue to be in tune with what's happening in the world with the Church. This whole issue of the lack of pastoral training, and Ramesh touched on it a moment ago, here's why we ought to all care about this. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
And that is that we believe that the Lord is going to return. Our Lord Christ is going to return. He's going to return in God's people, the church, and when he returns it is our present responsibility, I believe from a biblical standpoint, it is our present responsibility to do all we can to ready the Church for Christ's return. And so part of the way we do that is through pastoral training. As Ramesh mentioned earlier, up to 70% of new church plants have been indicated to fail within the first year. I mean, that's an awful statistic. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
I mean, that is telling you that the church is not sustainable, because oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, because the pastors are not prepared to lead the church. Some of us have said before the pastor can only give away what he himself has. And if he doesn't have the correct biblical understanding, doctrinal positions and training, he can't give to his congregants when he does not own himself or have himself. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So I think this is a crucial part of looking at the global church and saying, well, if we're going to be people of the word, and we believe that the Lord Christ is going to return for his bride, pastoral training is a crucial element in getting the Church ready for his return. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Now, I'm not saying that's the only thing we could do. There's all sorts of other great ministries available that local churches can get involved with, and help the global church be ready for Christ's return. But Ramesh and I and various others of us, we're heavily involved with theological education and pastoral training. And we do believe this is an essential part of getting the church ready. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
So local churches here in United States or wherever they might be listening to this, I'd say pray, have your leadership, look into it further, contact us contact others. There are ways that we can help you get mobilized and help you serve in different parts of the world.  
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Again, it's not so much content. There's a lot of content out there already. But can we get local churches to maybe help, not only deliver content, but help people live in accordance with the contents being delivered? Because we can do that, I believe that pastoral leaders themselves will be more ready for Christ's return. And if they are more ready for Christ's return, hopefully the church will be as well. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Ramesh, a question for you on this: what would you say to the average person listening, how can I get in tribute to this concern that we've expressed and this reality that is part of the challenge of the Church currently? 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
I think Michael sets the stage for it in terms of churches. And I really think we should just raise the profile of training pastors as a very high priority in global ministry strategy, and missions’ portfolios, so that every congregation, every organization, has as part of its overall thrust the training of pastors. If you notice, anywhere we go, even to dig wells, you go to the pastor to find out where to dig wells. To plant churches, you go to a pastor locally to find out where to plant churches. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
You want to show Jesus films, you go to the pastor to find out where to show Jesus films. So somehow God in His strategic thought, decided that the pastoral leader is the key role in both the extensional side of the ministry, and the foundational side of the ministry. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
I would like to invite all those who know and love and believe and follow the Lord Jesus, to think through this as a heightening of what can be of local, on site, relevant, most applicable, less expensive, but also longer term ministry across the whole world. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
All of us have been watching the recent developments in the Middle East. War is coming to an end, while anybody who's working for Christ in this area has had to leave because of earthquakes or some natural disaster. The pastor leaders stay. They are there even right now, in one country of the world where wars have temporarily ceased or at least pulled out from which we pulled out. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
When I was there, there were only 10 known believers in the whole country. None of those knew the other person for security reasons. Not one. They are not about 2,000 believers in that country. They will not be getting back, leaving the country. They have to stay. They will be significantly targeted and [inaudible] if not, monitored. What can we do for them? They meet in small communities. Their faith communities inside and somebody there is the point person, the shepherd leader, of that particular congregation. What can we do for them? 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Well, thank you, Ramesh for helping us with this and helping us think through this. Thank you as well, Michael, for this. Sorry for the disruptions that we had along the way. But sometimes, that's the way things go. I think we've- 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
In a way it does contextualize our podcast to the world. I mean, this does happen in various different places as well. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Exactly right. That's exactly where I was going next is it gives a little sneak preview of sometimes the way technology works in lots of parts of the world. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Exactly. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And the limitations that you're dealing with in attempting to do this, and as Bill Hendricks likes to say from the Center, "Technology is great when it works." 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
That's right. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
We'll do the best that we can with that. So, I'm going to sign off for now but we're going to hold on and do the one minute thing on the other end when Ramesh comes back. And hopefully if we keep it short enough, we'll prevent another outage from taking place. But I want to thank you, Michael, for taking the time to do this and to get people kind of aware of what's going on. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And we really do hope that giving people a glimpse of a nature of probably one of the greatest challenges that currently faces the church right now, at a global level, is this issue. There's probably very few things that are more important than this. So we thank you for taking the time to do this with us. 
 
Michael Ortiz: 
Absolutely, Darrell, and thank you for having us. And thank you for leading in this way and helping people be aware of this issue. I think you're absolutely right. This is the biggest issue right now globally with the Church. And so I applaud you and those at The Table and The Hendricks Center for what you guys are doing. Thank you. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Thank you very much. Ramesh, we were just signing off. I'm sorry that we've had the difficulty. We were commenting while you're away that this is actually how much of the world has to function a lot of times. That the technology isn't always as clean as you might want it to be. And so getting a little glimpse of the way the world works may not be a bad thing. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
COVID is teaching us to be flexible and make strategic adjustments. I am asking, Darrell, and Michael has heard this already if, over the course of a year. If every trainer trains just one pastor for 10 years that makes 10 pastors, if every pastor would train one leader, develop one leader, that makes 100 leaders over 10 years. If every leader will equip one believer a year, just one believer over 10 years, that makes 1,000 believers. 
 
Ramesh Richard: 
And every believer reaches only one person, family, friends, just one person a year over 10 years that makes for 10,000 people blessed and reached. And so if we increase the number of trainers of pastors, guess what? We increased the number of people who are reached. Even pastoral training is not for the sake of pastoral training. Theological education is not for the sake of theological education. It's for the sake of the final commission of the Lord Jesus. [crosstalk] 
 
Darrell Bock: 
Yeah and we're deeply committed to the combination of reaching out and doing the Great Commission, which is to go into the world and make disciples. I tease people, the Great Commission is not going to the Church and make disciples. It's going to the world and make disciples. 
 
Darrell Bock: 
And then of course, when that happens, not only are you getting evangelism, but you're also getting discipleship at the same time, and the Church is completing the loop of what it is that the great commission calls us to do. So appreciate that exhortation, Ramesh.  
 
Darrell Bock: 
Thank you guys for helping us with this. And I just want to say to our listeners, thank you for listening to The Table and hope you'll listen to us again soon. If you've enjoyed this podcast and are interested in it, please feel free to subscribe to us VoiceDTS/tablepodcast, and we look forward to seeing you again.