Religions:  Engaging with Black Hebrew Israelites

Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Welcome to The Table podcast, where we discuss issues of God and culture. If we're just meeting, my name is Dr. Mikel Del Rosario and I'm the Cultural Engagement Manager here at The Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary. And on The Table podcast, we've done a series on world religions and how to respectfully engage with those who see Christianity differently, talking about everything from major world religions, like Hinduism and Buddhism, Islam, but also talking out newer religious movements like Scientology and other things. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
And today we are talking about engaging with the Black Hebrew Israelites. And my guest on the show today is Vocab Malone. Vocab has an Urban Apologetics ministry, and he's done some postgrad work in the DMin Program at Talbot School of Theology, looking into some of this, the what we're going to talk about today, and he's engaged with people in this movement for years so we're pleased to have him on the show. Welcome to the show, Vocab. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Glad to be here, and it was great to see you at ETS. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Yes, it was really great to see you again. Last time I saw you was the ETS before COVID, so it was good to be back in the saddle there with you. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Well, we're talking about a variety of world religions in this series and today we want to focus on the Black Hebrew Israelites. Now this is an area where few churches or Apologetics Ministries really go. And for most people who are outside the African American community, we don't really hear much about it. It's not really on the radar for a lot of people, but some of my African American friends tell me they can't hardly go to get their haircut without someone trying to recruit them into this movement. So tell us how you first began to engage with this whole system. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Some of the more zealous sects of the Hebrew Israelites, specifically a group called GMS, Great Millstone, actually was bursting into churches during some of their meetings or would come immediately after and engage them in the parking lot in a rather boisterous way. And a friend from my old neighborhood in the area called me and asked me about it, because he was perplexed and he said, "I know you studied religion and stuff. Do you know anything about these guys?" I didn't know anything about these guys. This is a decade ago, my goodness or something. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
But I immediately got online and did searches, and I found the exact group he was talking about. Watched a ton of their videos and it was like a baptism by fire. And forgot about it until one day I saw them right on the block by my house, where you just go outside, boom, there they are, and I said, "That's those guys." I mean, it wasn't the same exact group. It was part of the same camp, that's what they call their sect, GMS, but it was GMS Phoenix, not GMS Columbus. And I engaged them, put the audio up on blog, this is when blogging was big in Apologetics, and the response was very heartfelt and urgent. And I realized that there was a big issue here that a lot of people weren't tackling and that's how the Lord brought me into it and I have not been able to leave. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Wow. Yeah. You have a very unique ministry in that regard, really engaging with people in this movement. How would you describe the worldview of the Black Hebrew Israelites for those of us who have no clue what this is about? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
The key element is we, and the question is: who's the we? Every group actually defines the we somewhat differently. So for now just say we and ostensibly, the person speaking is part of the group. We are the true biblical Israelites by blood. That's the key element. It drives everything and it is what drives interpretation, it's what drives proselytism, it's what drives... When someone leaves, the very first question they ask is, "But do you still think you're an Israelite?" That's the first question they always ask. "Do you still think you're an Israelite?" So it's central and the doctrine and the practice that we are the true biblical Israelites and everything else is colored from there. And there's actually a lot of flexibility. You can hold Old Testament only, you can hold New Testament and kick out Paul if you want. You can be nontrinitarian, which almost everybody is. There's a lot of flexibility at that point as long as you hold to that central tenet. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Now, how new is this movement? Is this an African American movement or was it before America? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Hebrew Israelites have a revised history, so they'll try to go way back and all this kind of thing. The reality of it though, is that Hebrew Israelism is about 130 years old. Began in America, 1880s, late 1880s at the earliest, and more likely sometime in the 1890s. There's different dates with different guys there, a little bit of confusion there. But you had two men roughly around the same time in that era who began preaching a message that we are the true people of the book, Black Americans are the Israelites. One was F. S. Cherry. He had a radicalized version that really cast out anyone else from being able to be part of this project, this plan, this awakening, and the other gentleman, William S. Crowdy, and both of them still have followers in churches today, Crowdy to a greater extent than Cherry, Crowdy was more ecumenical and egalitarian. And so he had followers of all types and stripes. He just had this vision and he literally says he received a vision while he was in Oklahoma, that Black Americans are the true Israelites. And some people date that to about 1896, it is a common time when the revision is supposed to be received and Cherry says he had a vision as well. And so it's older than people think. It's current iteration though, has recently come on the radar. The current iteration's a bit different than what Crowdy and Cherry were doing. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario : 
Now how does this world view explain if I can say actual Jews and Judaism? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Well, I have never met, maybe they exist, anyone who calls themselves a Hebrew Israelite, whether they're radical or more moderate, whatever their stance is, that does not think so called, this is their terminology, modern day Jews are actually frauds. They're ethnic and religious imposters. Usually, they think most of them are descended from Khazars. So this is something that's been around. It's something that wasn't Hebrew Israelite in its initial inception, the idea that actually a lot of Jews or descendants of Khazars. It's a whole discussion about the Khazarian empire and the Khazarian kingdom, then the king converting and all this. So a lot of them think they're Khazars. But the One West variety, that's a certain kind of Hebrew Israelite, 1West. It's not a name proper, it's more a designation of an ideology like Reform. There's not denomination called Reformed per se, but it is a designation of an ideology within Christianity. Same thing with 1West. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Some of the 1Westers, they believe they're actually Amalekites, like all the way back. You're talking like Haman. They believe that modern day Jews are essentially Amalekites. Now that's not all. That's tends to be the 1Wester variety. But they all think they're frauds, and they all think they're imposters and they think that Revelation 2:9 is actually about people that would call themselves Jews. Where it says those who call themselves Jews and there Jesus is saying, "If they're persecuting the church, then they're not really children of Abraham in the meaningful sense," because Jews were personally persecuting a church in those areas. And he's really just saying what he had already told the Pharisees. You're actually not really a son of Abraham, your of your father, the devil, right? John 8. And that's what Jesus is reiterating there in Revelation, but they use it to say, Jesus was saying, "Hey, you guys say you're Jews. You're actually imposters. You're fakes. You're frauds." It's actually, they say, it's one of the biggest cases of identity theft that's ever happened. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Now I've seen pictures of people in this movement dressed up like the Aaronic priesthood, and there's a lot of Jewish cultural things that will be incorporated into their lifestyle. What is the attraction for converts to this group? Is it Jewish culture per se or what's the attraction? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
A Hebrew Israelite would say, "This guy is asking the wrong question. It's my culture. I'm simply reclaiming it." It's like being 50 years old and finding out you're Sicilian, which is actually what happened to my mom. She didn't find out she was Sicilian until she's 50, long story. And then all of a sudden being like, "Oh, let me find out what that's all about." 
 
Vocab Malone: 
So they believe it's reclaiming a lost heritage. They believe that the Bible predicts that, like a passage in Jeremiah that speaks of the heritage or the inheritance, which is referring to the land, but they take it as your culture or something like that. And they would say they're recovering their culture. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And here it would say is they would say that: pastors have lied to us. They have not told us our true identity. We are the people written about in this book and who wrote this book and yet we've been told we're down here, in reality, we're up here. And now that I know who I am, I realize one of the key ways that I express my culture is by keeping the Old Testament law as well as I can. And so they would say: those folks are the wannabees, the so-called real Jews, they would say. We're the true ones taking it back. And they would say: outsiders have lied to them and that actually a lot of outsiders know the truth, especially the elite. They'll think that they know this reality. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And last thing I'll say about it, it's hitting a felt need. Everybody wants to know who am I? Why am I here? Why am I going? It's especially acute in a lot of people who convert into this ideology and you'll hear them say things like, "The day I woke up, or the day I came into this truth, it was like, I got a golden ticket. It was like I had won the lottery. I still remember the feeling when a guy told me I was an Israelite, how I was on the bus on the way home, how excited I was." That's the kind of thing you hear. It's almost them being born again. I'm not saying it actually is, of course, but they'll talk about it as waking up. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
So if it's 130 plus years old, and there are some people who are born into this system, assumedly, and what keeps people loyal to the worldview? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Well, a lot of Hebrew Israelites, they're younger or middle age when they discover they're Hebrew Israelites. If you're born into it, you have this extra layer of a pedigree in a sense. It's like, well, my mom knew that we were Israelites, and she taught us the Hebrew alphabet as children, something like that. So it's sort of an extra layer of pedigree in a way. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And you can read about studies like in the '60s about what scholars then called black Jews. Now this is not identical to what we're talking about, but it's interesting to read what are called "ethnographic studies" from that era. And the children really feel like they're in between two worlds. For example, let's say they go to a Jewish day school. A lot of the Jewish kids don't accept them as this or that, but then they're trying to live amongst the regular community and then everyone's like, why are you... So it's not easy. But they less look... Hebrewism is sort of less distinct in some ways, these days, because it's less accepting of a lot of mainstream Jewish practices. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so I don't think the bifurcation is as difficult, but I think that the one thing I want to point out, one thing I want to point out here is that I know of more than one Hebrew Israeliite who was a second generation who's left and come to Christ. So I'll bring up one specific, Jordan Ortiz, Atlanta, Georgia. He grew up in a camp called BOCC, Body of Christ Church, I believe is the name. Not GOCC, for people listening. That's a more popular camp, but this is a similarly named camp, but it's a different camp, BOCC. Jordan was in it, raised up in it. The Lord brought him out. He's saved by grace through faith and he's not just a Christian, he's a Christian apologist. He does live streams and everything and goes by Servant of Christ Ministries, he's a great brother. Wrote a book, commentary on the book of Galatians. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And he essentially has no dealings now with his family, not because he chose that because they cut him off and that's that. It's done. And so people talk about shunning or and excommunication and all that. They don't have as many official ecclesiastical practices in that way, but that's what happens socially. The practical reality is all your friends unfriend you. You're blocked. Boom, you're starting over in a lot of cases. Or every time you get together with family, it's friction, friction, friction. I've seen this happen as well. And it just becomes unbearable because it's not a live and let live thing a lot of times. They see it as a dog returning to the vomit of... Well, the first wasn't a Christian but going it's a step backwards. It's considered inferior or to become a Sunday Christian, or of course, to deny your heritage is the way they would think of it if you left. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Now for people in this system, how would they define the gospel? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
There are some Hebrew Israelites who get very close to explaining the gospel. I'm going to say from my experiences and reading tons of their literature and having lots of conversations with them and listening to a lot of their content, it is a small minority who get close to properly explaining it. Even the ones who, to an extent, get close to properly explaining it, there's a lot of praxis and then really contradictory statements that they'll make. And I understand Christians can do that too, but it's common within Hebrew Israelism because they'll explain the gospel and then you see this law stuff pop up in a way that is out of focus or out of order, out of balance. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
But that's really not the majority. Most Hebrew Israelites have some form of alchemy going on. The saying "works-based salvation" is a little too crass or facile for me, but saying alchemy, meaning a mixture of works in grace, like Mormonism. We do what we can, God's grace kicks in at a certain point, describing in a non-technical way but that's commonly what a Mormon would say, something like that. A lot of Hebrew Israelites will describe the gospel, they'll describe grace very similarly. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
The most radical Hebrew Israelites, they actually say the gospel is that they're going to be in the kingdom reigning with other nations as their slaves. Now that's the radical, the 1West type, but they think the gospel is we're going to reign and rule over everybody with them as our slaves and servants forever. They think that's the gospel, because they say that's the good news especially if you have been historically oppressed. And that's the issue. A lot of Hebrew Israelites don't understand the gospel. Try to find a statement of faith from a Hebrew Israelite group where the gospels explained clearly. I think I know of one and it's just not high in the priority list and then when they do explain it, doesn't sound right. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
I even know of one group, the last thing I'll say on this brother, one group in Toronto led by a guy named Elder Shadrock, I believe is his name. They teach that only Gentiles can be saved by grace. So this is a group that things Gentiles can be saved. A lot of groups actually, of the 1West variety don't think Gentiles can even be saved. They say Gentiles are saved by grace, but Israelites have to keep the law. And so they are saved essentially via obedience or adherence to the law. And I have some books on this written by this group in Toronto. And they go on to say that essentially via Israelites law keeping, it's... And this is not literally what it says, but as you read the description, you'll see it's almost as if it creates a treasury of merit similar to Roman Catholicism, where Gentiles are grafted in by the excess grace or merit that is created by the Israelites' law keeping. And so they don't have to keep the law because their Gentiles wasn't met for them, but they're able to be grafted in via the grace that is created by the Israelites who are keeping the law. And that's a little more sophisticated understanding of justification than most Hebrew Israelites, although it's certainly wrong biblically, but that's the problem most Hebrews Israelites do not get the gospel right. They just simply don't. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
So it sounds like in terms of engaging with people outside their group, especially people of other races, there's a variety of perspectives depending on which side of this movement you're a part of. Is that right? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Yeah. So there's a group out of Chicago called "Israel of God," for example. They think that a Gentile can be brought in and grafted in. And when I was in Chicago, I met up with a few of the guys and we talked and then they actually drove me over to their facility, which seats 6,000 people, by the way, in Riverdale, Chicago. So this is not a small organization. That's their main campus, but it's one of many. And they showed me around. We ate together. We had a peaceful Bible study, disagreeing Bible study. You can watch it online, it's on my channel, all that kind of stuff. And I still talk to some of those guys. That's "Israel of God," they're originally from Chicago and that's where their biggest concentration is, but they're everywhere else too. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
But then there's a group like say the ISUPK, Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge. They're the guys who tend to wear a black leather or camouflage with spikes. And ISUPK, they actually put out flyers. They do barbecues. They'll do annual barbecue in each camp, Indianapolis, Chicago, whatever it is. And on the flyers, often they'll put no other nations allowed, Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans only. So it's we cannot eat with you people type of thing. And there's a famous video online where there's a young kid who turns out to be, I believe from Nigeria. And the guy didn't know it at first and long story short, after a conversation, the guy says, "Well, you can't come in. You can't come in because you're African." And if someone's stretching their head, I'm not understanding that kind of Hebrews Israelite, ISUPK, they believe that Africans are Hamites, whereas they are Semites. And that the Hamites in Africa sold the Semites who were transplanted temporarily, originally from Israel in Africa, during the transatlantic slave trade. And so the Hamites are actually a member of another nation and they would say their spirit is different. It's obvious that they're not the same people. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so if you're directly from West Africa, the ISUPK would say, "You're of another nation. You're going to go to slavery too." And so that obviously is a very different way and if that's their stance towards folks who are West African, for example, you can imagine their stance to somebody who is Chinese or somebody who is Filipino or somebody who is Arabic or Indian from the East, or of course a white person that they would call an Edomite. It's not very friendly. And you can find some of these videos online. They usually get taken down, but one you could watch, I think it's called, The Most Hateful Group in America. There was a six-part series. I think only two videos are left online, but it's the GMS Bay Area camp and they're just brutal to passers by. So it's clearly not being very cool with people. They actually go out of their way to antagonize pedestrians. But then there's Israel of God and GOCC and groups like that who are a little more kind and friendly and say, "Hey, you can be our brother. You just got to mind the protocol." 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Now obviously there's a lot of hurt that goes along with some of where people who are being racist to others are coming from. How much of this is a pushback against the idea that Christianity is a white man's religion or that Jesus was a white person? How much of that have you seen? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Well, yeah, certainly a lot. A lot of times when I'm witnessing to a Hebrew Israelite, you'll like, say it's a video and I'm talking to someone and then another Hebrew Israelite gets ahold of the video and does a commentary on YouTube or something like that. They'll say something like here's Vocab trying to get this brother to return back to white Jesus. And so they term it as, "Going back to white Jesus." That's how they frame coming back, because most folks would say they were in the Christian Church. And of course that's not true. And then we get to have discussions in Revelation 1 because they try to use that. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
But there is definitely a pushback, a kickback, but the thing is, it's not just a reaction because you can do this thing without the same societal situation happening. Here's what I mean by that. Years before the Hebrew Israelites that we're talking about were the Anglo or the British Israelites, about a 100 years, it looks like as far as when they began. And that was, hey folks that are in the British empire, not the subjects, but the ones at the helm, the Scots and the Irish and the British and by extension, excuse me, the Americans. They're actually and perhaps other Europeans as well, they might say, Denmark and they'll say the country is named after Den who left his mark. I kid you not. Denmark, Danmark, stuff like that. Or British, Brit-ish. One, it means one is closer to the term for covenant and the other is close to the term man in Hebrewish, and they'll say, "Oh, British means covenant man." And so these are arguments that the Anglo and British Israelites use, white folks. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so sometimes I'm not saying you did this, because this is a valid question, but sometimes you will be like, well you know [inaudible]...yes, but you can do this kind of thing without that. I mean, they were at the helm of an empire and I'll give you something that's interesting about that. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Deuteronomy 28. So keep in mind what I just said here. Deuteronomy 28, this relates, Deuteronomy 28 is where it's reiterated what will happen to Israel if they keep the law, don't keep the law. The beginning are a bunch of promises, good stuff. Latter half, not so fun. Bigger, more goes all the way to verse 68 there on Deuteronomy 28. Hebrew Israelites look at the latter half and they say, "We're the people who fulfill these curses," specifically, especially verse 68, which is you're going to go into slavery in ships and to Egypt, it says. And then the British or Anglo Israelites, they actually looked at the beginning of it and they say, "Look, who else fulfills these promises? We're the nation that fulfills these promises. Clearly were the people of the book. We're the Israelites." 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so one's success was an indicator they were the real Israelites, and one's oppression is an indicator that they were the Israelites, according to these movements. But there is real hurt and I do believe in listening to people, but if you're in a street situation, it's a little bit less of counselor with and the soft side and I think you've got to be a gentle, humble, happy warrior. I don't mean being crazy or anything like that. I mean, you just got to be ready because if you're on the street, it's a different situation. I do not encourage everyone to go do the street interactions like you might see myself or someone else doing unless you know that that's something you've maybe done in some capacity before and can handle it because they're going to test you. And you may not be up for it, you may not be up for it and all that. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
So it's really good to talk to these guys one on one, and if you can. It's very difficult though sometimes to have it happen. You'd be surprised so many times I offered to buy someone lunch and get turned down. It's rare that the guy takes me up on the offer, and it's cool when he does, and it's like, "Hey, tell me your story. I'd love to hear where you're at, why you're at where you are, help me understand," you know what I mean? And it doesn't answer all the questions. And a lot of Hebrew Isrealites are honestly in the mode where they want to talk less about that, and they want to preach to you because they view themselves as in a state of teaching at this point. So it's even harder for some of these guys to really get into that personal side of it. You know what I mean? But it's eye opening when you can get there. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Now for these religions that we go through in our world religion series, we ask a couple questions that I already asked you: what's the attraction for people who are converting. And then two: what keeps the adherents loyal? And the third question is: what are some of the human longings that we see in this movement that's actually addressed by the true gospel? What would you say would be an example of one of those things? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Well, I think the fact that God promises justice in the end, I think that that is really important to understand. And people should understand that is part of what God does. Hebrews 10:30, "For we know him who said it is mine to avenge. I will repay, and again, the Lord will judge his people." "When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers," Proverbs 21:15. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And justice is something that I believe we long for being made in the image of God. And there's a great feeling that people feel great injustices have been done. And that when are things going to be made right? And so I think the gospel's true message of justice and not one of vengeance of sheer human vengeance and anger, I think it's important, and it really needs to be properly understood and God will set all things right. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
We read at the end of the book of Revelation, and he takes away pain, no more disease, no more sickness. God himself, the Bible says, will wipe the eye. And it's a beautiful thing. No more dying, right? And this is the end picture, really even better than the Garden of Eden ever was. And that's important. But it's tough if a person is got to the point where injustice has led them to who have a desire more for revenge than justice, even if they might say it's justice, it can be difficult for them sometimes to hear the message of the gospel, because the gospel also includes great forgiveness. And that means someone like John Newton, who was a slave trader, turned to Christ. Eventually left slave trading, realized it was wicked, was influential to Wilberforce. And the abolitionist movement wrote Amazing Grace. I mean someone like John Newton will be forgiven and be our brother in heaven. And that, to a certain kind of ear, that can sound like injustice if you're not understanding the gospel and its message. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so I constantly just hope that people can and can see the beauty of the gospel and it's for forgiveness versus just a raw vengeance. But the need for justice is legitimate and we should understand that and take that serious and that's one element that I think is important to bring out is that, as well as the sense of belonging to a family. I'm not saying people aren't in families, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not making some social commentary. I'm just saying every person wants to be in a place where they belong in community and longing. Everyone. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And there's all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons don't feel that. And there's all kinds of studies about how the internet was supposed to bring us closer together and perhaps the internet actually has been a tool to foster more division and more loneliness perhaps. But within that being said, there is a family, the household of faith, as Paul says. The people of God, the new Israel, the congregation, the assembly, those who were adopted, those who believed and then therefore he gave them the right to become children of God as John 1 says. You go down the list and you see of course, bride of Christ. There's all kinds of family language, household language, all throughout the Bible. And that's a beautiful thing and that can only be found on the gospel. And we can truly say "Abba father," and we can truly understand Jesus is our elder brother. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. And then we can, we can look and say, it's not Scythian, Barbarian. We are truly all one in Christ, whatever differences we have. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Hebrew Israelism says your family is based upon your lineage, your descent and now you're in this family and by the way, it's the family that God chose, and isn't that a great thing? And so it's a substitute or a replacement for what the biblical family is because it's based upon essentially ethnic designation that in most cases may not even be accurate. But an ethnic designation, and now, because you're this ethnic designation you're here and everybody else is there, it's essentially like supremacy. And people like to be over people and that's what's Jesus says, "Don't be like the Gentiles who lord their authority over others, but you be a servant. You be the slave." That's the greatest one of all, right? And you see a lot of elements of Hebrew Israelism frequently or kind of the opposite of the gospel. I'm not saying every Hebrew Israelite or anything like that, but a lot of times the official doctrine of any given group. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so we got to learn the gospel and then preach it and love in confidence and boldness and we will see people come out of it. In fact, I'm doing an interview tomorrow in my little old studio with a brother who was in GOCC, Gathering of Christ Church named Oscar Dunlap. He's been on a radio program called Cultish. And he was in there for a while, I think, seven years. And he's at a wonderful church, surrounded by wonderful brothers and regularly goes out, actually every Friday or every Saturday, and street evangelizes and really knows his stuff. And he is just a humble down to earth, solid man with a great family. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And so this happens, but, maybe I should open with this, Hebrew Israelism is growing, and there's data that indicates it's over a million and a half in the United States that identify as a Hebrew Israelite. That comes from Lifeway because Lifeway researched, the research arm, with something called the Philos Project, did some research on Black Americans attitudes towards Israel. And someone had the wherewithal and I know a little bit about the background, to include an element question in there that's about: do you know the teachings of the Black Hebrew Israelites? What do you think of them, kind of thing, right? And it says like, agree, strongly disagree, never heard of them, don't agree with a lot. And one of them says, I think they're fully right, basically identify as one. In those 4% of those surveyed sample size was around 1,100. If you extrapolate the 4% out to Black America as a whole, it's 1.8 million or so that you would end up with a number who identified. That doesn't mean they're out there on a corner every Saturday, it doesn't mean they even go online, but it means at least the ideological element, it's kind of step one, a lot of time leads to denial of the Trinity, denial of the New Testament, denial of Jesus is God is in place, and that's a problem. So it's growing, not shrinking. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Wow. Just with the little bit of research that I've done into this, just to prepare for our interview, I got the sense that dignity and being included in the people of God was of value that actually the true gospel really gives us, that without having to resort to revisionist history, I can be Filipino, I can be whatever Gentile and be in the people of God because of Jesus. And so that's really the beauty of the gospel: is it's everyone. Everyone's welcome and because of Jesus now, you don't have to be ethnically Jewish or make up this kind of revisionist history. Jesus is calling every single one of us. So I think that's something that we can certainly see is as a need that the true gospel gives us. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Amen. Amen. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
What advice would you give to a Christian who is being approached about joining this group? I mentioned to you some of my black friends who they say they can't even hardly go to the barbershop without someone trying to hit them up to join this group. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Well, if you're strong in your faith, study up, learn your stuff, go in there and do 1 Peter 3:15. If you know you're weak in your faith, you should find a new barbershop because if you're just someone who listens without looking into things, you could be easily swayed. I mean, I'm just saying straight up. So I think the person needs to do an honest self assessment of where they're at, because a lot of people will just fall down so easily. And so I would encourage people to really become familiar with relevant... I'm not... I'm just going to say versus, I'm going to say passages, I going to say chapters and really even books. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Starting with Galatians. If you want a chapter to start in, if you don't... It'd be best to start in the beginning, go all the way through, but Galatians 3, especially Galatians 3. And then the best thing to learn how to do in regards to Bible study, in regards to Hebrew Israelism is this: learn the New Testament use of the Old Testament. Find out when it happens, find out how it happens, find out what it means, get some basic understanding of how the passages that are used, what their original context was. When you start putting that together, first of all, you'll be blessed. The Holy Spirit is just amazing, the pages of scripture. The inspirational of Holy Spirit, it's just amazing to see God's wisdom and beauty and power all throughout the pages. You'll be blessed as a Christian, you'll grow in your faith. But you'll become equipped. That person who really starts to put those things together just becomes an unstoppable force because they understand the gospel and the continuity between the message that was there albeit the Bible does say it's hidden or a mystery. Not it was there, but now it's been more fully revealed. Paul speaks about this for example. Even Jesus talks about things hidden and talks about those who have ears to hear. When you start to see that and put those things together, it's a beautiful thing. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
I just did a study yesterday. This is what took up the bulk of my day, on Romans 15. It's amazing. Just let me read just a tad of this to show you. So you're saying, what should you do? You should be dead set serious about studying the Bible in a deep, serious way. And if you're not going to do it, you just need stay away from it until you're ready to take it serious because you're just going to fall, straight up. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Romans 15, listen to this. This is amazing. Check this out. I'm going to start in verse nine. Verse nine, "In order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy, as it is written." Now Paul's going to list four Old Testament passages here, right in a row and say they all apply to what's going on now. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
"Therefore I will praise you and the Gentiles and sing to your name." That's the first one. That's David from Psalm 18. Paul's quoting that there. Interestingly enough, in that original context, it was David conquering his enemies and now singing praises to God, and now you see the nations included because Paul's going to put these together. Watch what happens. There's a progression here. And again it is said, "Rejoice O Gentiles with his people." So the people of Israel, Gentiles together. "And again, praise the Lord, all your Gentiles and let all the peoples extol him." There, it's Gentiles' independent in the sense of Israel. And again, Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse will come," ultimately that's the Messiah, "Even he who arises," and a lot of people think that's a implied hint towards the resurrection, "to rule the Gentiles." Remember we're servants of Christ. "In him, will the Gentiles hope? Gentile, Gentile, Gentile, Gentile." 
 
Vocab Malone: 
And what Paul does there is he shows you, this is a consistent theme in the Old Testament and just brings it together and that's just one place. And so if someone has this idea that Gentiles are excluded or something like that, they're very wrong biblically. And I think understanding this lessens your need to think you need to be Israel to be in because you realize, "Hey, God was trying to do this and I'm a benefit of that grace. I could still be Filipino, I could still be a Sicilian, I can still be who I am and be in Christ and that's okay." And if someone's a Jew, God bless them too. It's all good. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
But check this out. Last one I'll share. It's Galatians 3:7, and both of these are New Testament passages that rely heavily on the Old Testament. So I'm not just going New Testament. I'm going New Testament but the Old Testament is ready right there. Watch Galatians 3:7. This is beautiful. "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." So if you trust in Christ, you are now considered a son of Abraham. Sometimes people are like, "Oh, spiritual sonship. I don't..." Well, this is spiritual sonship. It's saying by faith, that's how you're a child of Abraham. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
So the old song, "Father Abraham, had many sons," that's a biblical song. And the scripture, verse 8 of Galatians 3 says, "Foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith." So again, this is already in the Old Testament is what that's saying. "Preach the gospel beforehand to Abraham." Now, "preach the gospel beforehand," did he hear about Jesus? Well, we do know one thing he heard, which is the very next line: "saying, In you shall all the nations be blessed." So this is the original intention just being played out over time. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
Verse nine. "So then those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." And watch how the chapter ends. A lot of people know Galatians 3:28, but Galatians 3:29 wraps up the chapter of the section of course. "And if you are Christs, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." 
 
Vocab Malone: 
So who really biblically speaking are Abraham's offspring? It's those who have the faith of Abraham, where he trusts God to keep his promises. And that means that we trust in the ultimate fulfillment of Yahweh's promise, who is the Messiah. And so that's important. 
 
Vocab Malone: 
So Galatians 3 is a great place to start. The whole book. I just brought up Romans 15. And once you have that, you start to get a robust biblical theology, and you don't want to turn away. You don't want to start doing revisionist history. You don't want to start telling people some of the things that some of these guys believe like for example King James was actually black. That's a common myth among the One Westers. You don't have to go there, you know what I'm saying? And I pray that this challenge that has arisen in our lifetime will result in people understanding how the gospel is in the Old Testament. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Yeah. Wow. Well, those are some good texts that you brought up that'll help people begin to engage. Our time is gone but thank you so much for joining us here on The Table. Vocab, how can people contact you and follow you online? 
 
Vocab Malone: 
All across social media that I have, from Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, just Vocab alone and also the name of my live show that I call Street Apologist. So just look for those, one word together, just lowercase. And then also live pretty regular on YouTube, as of now, youtube.com/vocabmalone. And actually today I just finally hit 30,000 subs, so we'll see what that does or doesn't do. But I'm on YouTube pretty regularly and catch me there. I hope to see you guys in the live chat. 
 
Dr. Mikel Del Rosario: 
Thanks so much. If you're watching this on YouTube, please do check that out. You can also subscribe to the YouTube channel here at DTS, so you can get The Table every time it comes out. And you can also subscribe on your audio app if you're listening to this, just the audio version. We'd love to continue the conversation with you. You can hit up Vocab, you can talk to me as well, @ me on Twitter at ApologeticsGuy or on YouTube at Apologetics Guy, as well. Once again, we thank you so much for joining us here on The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture, and we hope to see you again next time.